6 replies to this topic

[Megalechis]

Lots of spoilers ahead! (If you've already tried/checked on some of what I've described here, my apologies for being redundant.) Nathaniel's ring (it's fhring.itm) functions in several dialog file trees, and as an associated plot device. First, on the BFNAT.dlg file, he will ask for your view on whether or not he should keep it (Top Level#329 "<CHARNAME>, do you have a minute?" starts this dialog tree). I couldn't find any conditions (triggers) in this tree that check for the presence of the ring; also, the item check conditions in the game usually check for the presence of items in ANY of the members of the party (including inside bags of holding, etc.), and not just as equipped items on a particular character or creature. If you suggest that he keep Latimer's ring, he'll remove it from his left hand and place it into his inventory, but you still won't be able to remove it from his inventory in the game because it's checked as a non droppable item (you can edit this with any item editor, such as Cromwell's Smithy, IEEP, DLTCEP, etc., and it will be droppable after you resume the game). If you suggest that he discard it, it'll be destroyed. Since this dialog tree doesn't seem to check for the ring at any stage, removing his ring beforehand shouldn't cause any problems.

Secondly, one of the randomly initiated pre-romance non interactive dialogues checks for the presence/ absence of the ring. This runs AFTER Top Level#329, and it's Top Level#433 in FHNATJ.dlg (Nathaniel is watching you with a thoughtful expression on his face.) If anyone in the party has the ring, he will look at the ring on his finger, if no one in the party has it, he'll look at where he used to wear it. It's not interactive, BUT the Flirt Timer in the game is set after this item check sequence. Since the timer will set at this point even if the ring isn't around, deleting it from his inventory beforehand shouldn't cause any problems. Also, there's at least one other randomly generated non interactive dialog tree in this file which doesn't have anything to do with the ring, that can also set the Flirt Timer the same way.

When Latimer confronts Nathaniel and <CHARNAME>, FHBRYCE.dlg also checks for the presence of the ring among the party, regardless of <CHARNAME>'s gender, or whether he/she is involved in an active romance/friendship with Nathaniel. This only determines part of his dialog with Nathaniel, and not the outcome of their confrontation.

This should be posted under the "Nathaniel and thieves thread", but if your character duals to a thief (or if you use Shadowkeeper or another editor to make him a dual, single or multi class thief) after Nathaniel joins your party, he will usually complain, but will remain with you and even romance your character if your alignment remains Lawful or Neutral Good, and you behave accordingly. (One one run through the game, he didn't even protest after I dual classed my character into a thief.) He'll dump you for being "too chaotic" in the TOB epilogue if you don't change your class back before you choose to stay with him as a mere mortal. You can get around this by editing your character back to a non thief just before the game ends, by dumping him for an immortal, interplanar existence (the epilogue for this choice is a real tear jerker), or by editing FHNATH09.ada (this is the .ada file that runs the epilogue if you are a thief and stay with Nathaniel): change the second column default string reference from 79353 to something happier: 79351 gives the two of you a happy future with an adopted family, 79352 gives you a happy future together after a fight over your not entirely law abiding but good past, and 79350 gives you a happy future together after Nathaniel struggles with depression when his father dies.

A novel and very useful way of getting a thief (and adding a seventh party member) without upsetting Nathaniel is to edit your mage's familiar into a single, dual, or multiclass thief. You can also edit their stats, inventory, etc. just as you would a humanoid party member, BUT you must do this before you summon them (you can't edit in party familiars with Shadowkeeper or IESE), AND you must check off all of their inventory items as identified before you summon them (to insure that these items work), because you can't access/view familiars' inventories in the game. You can use DLTCEP to do this. Familiars already have some identified inventory items, and some spells. Familiars' cre files always start with fam (fampsd.cre is the Pseudo Dragon familiar of good mages in SOA, fampsd25.cre is the Pseudo Dragon summoned in TOB (your fampsd.cre familiar will be brought over from SOA to TOB if it survives the first game). The disadvantages of familiars as party members are that they worsen pathing problems, they can't manipulate inventory objects, so they can't open/close doors and containers, or pick pockets successfully (they will always cause their victim to turn hostile if they try), and you need to move them well away from any doors you are trying to open/close, or the game will select them by default to do something they can't do. They CAN pick locks, detect or disarm traps, and find secret doors and passages, as effectively as any humanoid thieves of comparable proficiency.

Many players avoided adding Yoshimo to their party because of a certain Irenicus controlled asylum sequence; they also missed out on the best thief, and one of the best written characters, in the game, along with a huge experience bonus from completion of his posthumous quest. He also has some good if brief interactions with Nathaniel. Yoshimo's special snares (part of his Bounty Hunter kit) are the most lethal non magical traps available to a sub level 20 rogue, and they even work against liches and dragons. (And no, he won't use them against you.) (I was quite annoyed over what I felt was a rather lame plot device to force you to take back Imoen [much improved and much more likeable than her BG1 persona, but the sugar coated depiction of her thieving was grating when contrasted with Yoshimo's realistically gritty amorality, and Aran Linval was sometimes even more schizoid], and the 'bug fix' in the last Fixpack that prevented you from having him join/rejoin your party so you could resurrect him after Irenicus kills him, was even worse.)

Speaking of Level 20 and higher rogues, those spiked traps available to them are so lethal and potentially game unbalancing that they can turn high level Bards as well as Thieves into real killing machines; 3 will usually kill even Firkraag, and one will kill any lich other than Kangaxx in his second incarnation (only because he will set them all off in his first incarnation).

Finally, consider editing Nathaniel's ring with any item editor to give it the equipped functions of whatever you replaced it with. Editing items can be a little trickier and more complex than editing characters and creatures, but it's great fun once you've gotten the gist of it. Same for editing dialog files (I overwrote Imoen in BG1 with my own equivalent of Nathaniel, with extensively rewritten dialog files and Garrick's voice files.)

[Megalechis]

Glad to be of assistance! My error when I described Nathaniel's (Latimer's) ring as "checked as not droppable"; it's NOT checked as DROPPABLE (moveable). Anyone who checked the attributes for fhring.itm would have caught this. This attribute was intended to insure that it worked correctly as a plot device. Also, you can set familiars' inventory items as identified in Shadowkeeper as well as in DLTCEP, but in Shadowkeeper, it's an all or none proposition; by default, they are unidentified, and can all be set to identified. Shadowkeeper's default setting for .cre and .chr file editing is as read only, and it doesn't keep an original copy of either type of file after saving of edited .chr or .cre files, as it does when you save an edited savegame file. I forgot to mention that familiars can also be edited to set any and all types of rogue traps, including spiked traps.

[Nix]

Many players avoided adding Yoshimo to their party because of a certain Irenicus controlled asylum sequence; they also missed out on the best thief, and one of the best written characters, in the game, along with a huge experience bonus from completion of his posthumous quest...
...(I was quite annoyed over what I felt was a rather lame plot device to force you to take back Imoen [much improved and much more likeable than her BG1 persona, but the sugar coated depiction of her thieving was grating when contrasted with Yoshimo's realistically gritty amorality...

Hear hear!

[Arathlan]

...Alternatively play the story and simply convince him to throw away the ring himself