470 replies to this topic

[Aeryn]

There's always the PC who won't give a rat's behind about Tamoko or Sarevok's past with her...in fact, I can easily imagine one who would be jealous thinking about her (or any other woman) and the big guy together. So, then the question arises: What would Sarevok think of a woman who doesn't care to see his warm fuzzy center? Perhaps his degree of "opening up" could be based on the PC's willingness to share her own hurts with him (like the pain of losing Gorion, being tormented by Irenicus, etc) and if she doesn't take the relationship past a certain "level," he won't either. I see any "romance" with him (beyond a physical relationship) as being very based on manipulation and daily power struggles, and so him pouring his heart out just simply doesn't strike me as in character unless the conditions were just right.

[HighTimeRodeo]

Hoo, boy...

Okay, tell ya what. We've all made good points and lots of great ideas. Everyone who had an idea they'd like to see in a first release of this mod, make a list and post it. We'll go through it and make two lists out of all those. One for first release and one for later release. And maybe a third for on account of because.

[Orthodoxia]

There's always the PC who won't give a rat's behind about Tamoko or Sarevok's past with her...in fact, I can easily imagine one who would be jealous thinking about her (or any other woman) and the big guy together. So, then the question arises: What would Sarevok think of a woman who doesn't care to see his warm fuzzy center? Perhaps his degree of "opening up" could be based on the PC's willingness to share her own hurts with him (like the pain of losing Gorion, being tormented by Irenicus, etc) and if she doesn't take the relationship past a certain "level," he won't either. I see any "romance" with him (beyond a physical relationship) as being very based on manipulation and daily power struggles, and so him pouring his heart out just simply doesn't strike me as in character unless the conditions were just right.

Would that count for good/neutral PC as well? I can play a cold hearted neutral but I can't really play evil Though I have to say talk about Irenicus and his dungeon is a must. Think about the scars and the torture she must have endured in his hands. On a side note, perhaps PC never had a man in her life because they were all scared of her being a Bhaalspawn (not talking about Xan here jsut in general) and she chose Sarevok as a lover because she knew he wouldn't be afraid of her.

I would like to see this mod not end in their plans for the future or a fully realized romance but more in resolution in some of their conflicts and leave it at "what now?"

[Nix]

Unfortunately I have no aptitude for writing fiction, least of all romance fiction. I imagine a male romance should just follow the same general path as a female romance, but with several different conversations at certain points. Much like the Solaufein romance, which is completely gender-neutral, plus a few gender-based responses. I'm just tossing the idea out there. The very idea of a Sarevok romance kind of breaks from his character anyway, I reckon, so since we're already going there, why not have something for everyone, hey?

Why put the brother/friendship path in another module though? Why not just include all of it in one mod, and let the female PC who doesn't feel particularly incestuous have the option of pursuing the brotherly path as well?

[Thanatos.]

"Can we still be friends?" Hmm. Depending on how deep the romance is, this could have different results. Screw with Sarevok and he might just kill the PC

[Icendoan]

Screw with Sarevok and he might just kill the PC

Icen

[HighTimeRodeo]

LIST, PLEASE.

Epitomy and I can't keep up with all the ideas you guys come up with. It's too much without some kind of summarization.

And I think that talking about Irenicus and his 'funhouse' is a must as well.

What I'm saying for the friendship thing is it can also be in the romance, but it'll be seperate as well, just in case there are people who want the friendship without sitting through downloading the whole romance. I know that as a dial-uper I wouldn't want to sit through a whole download just for one piece of content. Would you?

Yeah, having the romance open ended would be interesting, but what about those of us who want a definite ending to their romances? We'll put the open ended option for the Neutral characters, but both evil and good will have some kind of definite resolution.

Epitomy had come up with an idea to solve the 'when, how and why' of the romance, but I'll let her explain that.

I don't want to be rude, but we need help, not suggestions or theories.

Edited by HighTimeRodeo, 06 January 2009 - 11:55 AM.

[EpitomyofShyness]

You want me to explain that idea?!... Ok...

For those of you who have done the Angelo romance this will be familiar. You initiate the romance by flirting. And there is going to be options for all alignments, it won't be as simple as clicking Sarevok and then clicking flirt. It could be as simple as selecting stare at him, it could be brushing against his side, it could be stretching where he can see you. But that way for those who don't want to play the romance one round through, or who can't see their character liking him or what not won't have to click flirt. 'Friendship' path continues as normal, but romance never activates. As for flirting with him, since the game is so short we would definitely have to put in a warning in the readme that you must flirt with him before a certain point or the option would probably disappear. After all if the flirt is a simple as stare at him it's not like your PC has to be some sadistic horny ::female dog:: to initiate the romance.

By the by.... Don't expect it to be quite that simple... I'm gonna come up with some nasty- Er... startling surprises for that first encounter. Hehheh. HAHAHA!!!...

[Cal Jones]

SConrad was working on a Sarevok friendship mod for IEP but has been busy (I offered to help at one point, but then went on holiday and got sidetracked, so not sure if it's made progress - I suspect not at this stage).
I'd stick with a relationship, and females at that. There's nothing to indicate Sarevok would ever be interested in males. Much as I'm titilated by the idea of the big dude getting jiggy with a guy, I can't really picture it.

One thing I will say is, give options for different sorts of females. In real life, I'm the sort of woman who doesn't care for kids, hauls big weights in the gym, hates chick flicks and loves action movies. As a child I wanted to be the knight, hacking off heads with a big sword, rather than the princess in a pretty dress. And now, as an adult, I can actually do that, thanks to computer games. Still, it's for this reason that I find romances like Anomen's just unplayable. Don't assume the player will envisage her PC the way you do yours - some may be romantic and feminine, some may be tough and practical and others may be somewhere in the middle - and either could be good or evil.

And for the love of god, no kids in the epilogue! I tried the Kelsey romance one playthrough and there's an option there to be pregnant at one point. Not liking kids, I didn't take it, and was disgusted to find the PC forced to squeeze out twins in the epilogue anyway. Yuck. I actually went back and replayed that entire battle and chose to ascend instead.

Right, now I've got that off my chest.

One topic that should, perhaps, be covered, is Gorion. It's largely assumed (by Bioware) that the PC hates Sarevok for killing Gorion, but might grudgingly forgive him if he promises to serve her. This may be true in BG1. By ToB, however, you've discovered two things: Gorion lied to you about your mother, and he failed to tell you about Imoen. This may affect the PC's feelings about him. That and him being a Harper (after all the stuff the Harpers pull on you in SoA) may paint him in a less favourable light, ultimately.

The PC may also feel some regret about having to kill Sarevok. Yes, some characters may want revenge, some may just want to crush him because he is in the way, but think about this: in BG1 you're an orphan with no known relatives. Suddenly, you discover you have a brother. OK, so he's a murderous megalomaniac, but wouldn't you be just a bit curious? Wouldn't you want to save him, knowing that he is the only family you've got (or so you're aware at the time)? Dig a little deeper by talking to Tamoko and reading his diary and you discover a troubled man who was an orphan like yourself, then later saw his (foster) mother murdered in front of him as a child. A man who was once human enough to inspire Tamoko's love, but who lost his humanity along with his sanity in pursuit of godhood. Ultimately he forced the conflict with the PC, but that doesn't mean the PC was happy about killing him. Though the existing dialogue paths (during his resurrection in the pocket plane) don't allow for it, perhaps the PC is glad of the chance to resurrect him and give him another chance.
It's all worth considering, IMHO.

[Aeryn]

I can play a cold hearted neutral but I can't really play evil

Exactly the point. Someone far wiser than I once said on another forum, "Just because a character is evil (good) doesn't mean they have to be an a**hole (butt-kisser) to their companions." Of course, while having all those role-playing options is great for the player, it's kind of a nightmare for the writer.

I don't want to be rude, but we need help, not suggestions or theories.

It's not rude to try to get to the point but unless you as the creator of this new-old idea give people a framework to come up with ideas, all you will end up with is random brainstorming. You or whomever is helping you needs to sit down and decide what you want to accomplish and the steps that will get you there, and then people can help fill in the blanks. Making a concrete progression of the love-talks would probably be a good starting place - not meaning the actual writing out of them, just a simple frame of when each should occur and what they address. Of course, I've never made a mod (RE doesn't count because describing a sex romp is not the same as writing a romance ) so maybe there are better ways to go about it, but it seems like a good spot to start if you want a better handle on the feedback you receive.

Also - and I mean this as encouragement no matter how it sounds - there will always be people who are unsatisfied (sometimes very much so) with the mod you create, and not just trolls who hate the idea to begin with. No matter how you write Sarevok, there will be fans who don't like how it turns out no matter how hard you try to please everyone. So the best advice is try not to please everyone. If it's a labor of love that you do because you want to do it for yourself, then the idea has a good chance to flourish.

[EpitomyofShyness]

I agree with all you have said here. I also honestly agree with the no guys thing, despite how nice it would be to give guys another option... It just doesn't seem in Sarevok's nature. In fanfiction it is possible to paint characters in a certain light but in this there isn't a way to make it believable given the current data. No guys then I don't think. As for him killing the PCif she messes with him... He's not suicidal.

But ok. HighTimeRodeo, I'm gonna try and make a list of things.

RomRaces:Elf, Half-Elf, Human

Classes/AL:All

Things that need to have the option to discuss: Tamoko, Cythandria, Irenicus, incest issue, how CHARNAME has changed

Anything I missed? Of course this won't be everything, I'm just trying to cover and list the major issues that need to at least have the option for a talk.

[Orthodoxia]

Perhaps a thing that should also be covered is Imoen's hostility towards Sarevok. I imagine she would be hurt and disappointed if the PC starts a relationship with the murderer of Gorion. I don't think she would take it lightly or even adjust easily to the idea. The same goes for Jaheira.

In short the reactions of the NPCs, most notably those that were in BG1.

[Aeryn]

The reactions of the other PCs could be pretty dramatic. Imoen dislikes him so much that if a PC told her to shove off and mind her own business, I could see her going so far as to leave the group. If the PC is in a relationship with Anomen and screws around on him, there's a pretty good chance he'll want to kill Sarevok at some point. And maybe it's just me, but I can totally picture Viconia giving a very...descriptive "pep talk" to the PC. It would be a good idea to make a list of how each PC would react (ie, surprise, anger, amusement, indifference), both at the initial discovery and later as the relationship evolves to decide which ones would even say anything at all. The most I can imagine from Valygar is a raised eyebrow.

[EpitomyofShyness]

Very good point Aeryn, though at this point I think we're just gonna figure out the relationship itself. NPC interference can come in once the basics are complete. Besides, I don't know all the NPC's as well as I should and I would at least need outside help for their reactions. Maybe once the whole thing is almost done we can ask for assistance in writing out NPC reactions.

Based on the PC's I've played with, Jaheira and Imoen would be upset and probably a little hurt, Anomen if not in a relationship would strongly oppose, and if he were in one I can see him going several different ways.

For example: If PC were trying to hide the relationship from other character's, not being extremely cozy with Sarevok where other's could see Anomen might think PC had nothing to do with it, hence his desire to slaughter Sarevok. Or if PC was a little more obvious he would probably be even more angry, except instead of just being angry with Sarevok he would also be angry with PC. In any account, if the PC were to persue a relationship with Sarevok after romancing Anomen to get the full romance Anomen would leave you. I cannot see him remaining behind after that large of a betrayal.

Viconia:

I can totally picture Viconia giving a very...descriptive "pep talk" to the PC.

LOL!!! Yes. Definitely. I can also imagine her asking if she could borrow Sarevok from the PC... With interesting results...

Minsc: Hmmm... I imagine he would wonder why the PC was interested in Sarevok but I can't see him leaving because of it.

I admit to not having played with very varied groups. So beyond this I'm lost. I always take Imoen, I always take Sarevok, I usually throw in a mod NPC for the romance since I can't stand Anomen's, I usually take Anomen because he is an incredible cleric... And then there is only one other space.

I need to branch out more. I can't stand Keldorn, I like Vicionia but I hate how she doesn't make undead explode, I never tried Edwin, never tried Valygar longer than it took to finish the Planar Sphere, hate Mazzy, like Jan but find him mostly useless, am irritated by Aerie, never tried Korgan. So with most other character reactions I would need a lot of help.

Maybe HighTimeRodeo has more experience with other characters...

[Lykainon]

I need to branch out more. I can't stand Keldorn, I like Vicionia but I hate how she doesn't make undead explode, I never tried Edwin, never tried Valygar longer than it took to finish the Planar Sphere, hate Mazzy, like Jan but find him mostly useless, am irritated by Aerie, never tried Korgan. So with most other character reactions I would need a lot of help.

I usually play with... eh, morally under-developed NPCs and I think both Edwin and Korgan (although in very different ways) would mostly be a little amused by the relationship. Now that I think about it, Jan probably would as well. He doesn't strike me as someone who thinks all that hard about good and evil.

On a slightly unrelated subject, Viccy might not make undead go boom but she can create some pretty nice undead armies to slaughter their former allies. Once she gets powerful enough to turn vampires (and occasionally liches) it's always a pleasant surprise when attacking groups include such creatures.

[Cal Jones]

I always take Imoen, I always take Sarevok, I usually throw in a mod NPC for the romance since I can't stand Anomen's, I usually take Anomen because he is an incredible cleric... And then there is only one other space.

I need to branch out more. I can't stand Keldorn, I like Vicionia but I hate how she doesn't make undead explode, I never tried Edwin, never tried Valygar longer than it took to finish the Planar Sphere, hate Mazzy, like Jan but find him mostly useless, am irritated by Aerie, never tried Korgan. So with most other character reactions I would need a lot of help.

Heh, you sound a lot like me. I always take Anomen if I am not playing a cleric (I often play a fighter dualled to cleric at level 9, if I am not playing a pure fighter) because of his undead chunking. It's the one thing he has over Viconia. But I can't stand his voice or romance. I just want to fit him with a ballgag and leave him to fight and turn undead and just not talk. (As for Aerie...she is a whinging wet blanket and needs a slap. I have played her romance to see what happened, but I never take her, otherwise).

Val nearly always makes it into my party, though. He's somewhat taciturn, but I like that. Give him Celestial Fury and Belm and he quickly becomes a one man wrecking crew. He is also the one character who gets on with Sarevok and isn't an ass to him in ToB. He would probably be OK with it.

Edwin is the best mage in the vanilla game so I've taken him often, though as I've discovered some good NPC alternatives (Angelo is a favourite, but Xan, as a sorcerer, is also very useful even if you don't want to romance him) I take him less due to his alignment issues. The mod Eddie romance is great though. Vanilla Eddie is quite snarky towards Sarevok and they don't much trust each other, but that's understandable. A relationship with Sarevok would doubtless provoke more snarkiness and various comments about the big fella being inferior to Thayvian men, and somesuch.

Korgan would probably just make crude comments about large weapons.

As for Minsc, I can't recall him commenting on any of the PCs relationships. He's probably too dim to notice.

[Aeryn]

I do agree that the romance plot line should come first, but I'm a little bored and now I have this in my head so I might as well write it out. These are just my impressions of the basic NPCs, so they're subject to interpretation.

Aerie: shocked, would comment once, romance would not cause her to leave the party
Anomen: enraged whether LG or CN, if LG and romanced would want to defend his lady's honor (read: attack Sarevok), if LG and not romanced would comment/threaten Sarevok, if CN and romanced would want revenge (attack Sarevok), if CN and not romanced would comment/threaten Sarevok, romance will cause him to leave the party (one way or another) if romanced and would not cause him to leave if not romanced
Cernd: surprised, would not comment, romance would not cause him to leave the party
Edwin: indifferent/slightly jealous perhaps, would comment once, romance would not cause him to leave the party
Haer'Dalis: very amused/intrigued, would comment at least once, romance would not cause him to leave the party
Imoen: very angry/hurt, would comment at least once, romance could cause her to leave the party
Jaheira: shocked/angry, would comment at least once, romance would not cause her to leave the party unless PC specifically tells her to
Jan: indifferent/slightly curious?, would probably tell a really colorful story involving two first cousins and turnips?, romance would not cause him to leave the party
Keldorn: concerned for PC, would comment once, romance would not cause him to leave the party
Korgan: indifferent/slightly amused, would not comment, romance would not cause him to leave the party
Mazzy: disgusted/shocked, would comment once, romance could cause her to leave the party
Minsc: angry then confused, would comment once (with Boo?s help of course), romance would not cause him to leave the party
Nalia: shocked, would comment once, romance would not cause her to leave the party
Valygar: indifferent, would not comment, romance would not cause him to leave the party
Viconia: amused/slightly jealous, would comment at least once, romance would not cause her to leave the party

I don't think Cernd, Korgan or Valygar are the type to get involved (though I admit to having Korgan in party for a total of 4 mins out of my years of playing BG2...), unless Cernd perhaps tried to make conversation with Sarevok regarding the relationship. A romanced Anomen would be the most tricky to write, partially because of his alignment shift, although Imoen would have to be pretty complicated to make it believable. I honestly picture her as leaving unless the PC did some pretty persuasive talking. Okay, I'll stop the tangent now. When you get the main romance mostly hammered out, I'd be happy to help with this NPC stuff.

[EpitomyofShyness]

...

... Wow...

That was awsome, as in absolutely and utterly awesome... I'm copying that to a file on my computer so I don't lose it. And yes, I can't speak for HighTimeRodeo but I know that once we get pretty far along (read waaaaaaaay into the future) we would appreciate help with the NPC's.


::EDIT::

Ack! I'm addicted to a mod! I decided to go start up a new game playing with some NPC's I normally ditch but I love Angelo too much to leave him behind!!!... Someone hit me hard...

Edited by EpitomyofShyness, 06 January 2009 - 04:23 PM.

[HighTimeRodeo]

Maybe HighTimeRodeo has more experience with other characters...

TOB is great for that.

I haven't had Valygar and Mazzy in the same party yet and I would love to try that in SOA. I'm running through Throne of Bhaal now with a CE character and so far Sarevok has agreed to be my general. I love being evil....

For Aeryn:

I agree with you about Cernd and I hadn't thought about Haer'Dalis or his reaction too it. I admit, I'm myopic sometimes.
I don't think Imoen really, truly hates him. I think she's more curious than wary about him. I think she likes the idea of having a brother, but she probably just wishes it wasn't him.

For Cal Jones:

I love the way you described handling Anomen! Minsc might comment if the PC is open about her relationship with Sarevok, it's kind of hard not to notice someone being 'friendlier' towards someone that once tried to kill her once upon a time.

I got the feeling that if there had been more time to develop TOB more, there would have been something resembling a friendship between the two. And I think you nailed Edwin and Korgan's reactions. Though there would probably be some threats on Sarevok's part. PC he would let fend for herself, but he'd take offense to getting made fun of.

Yeah, Gorion should be discussed and maybe a bit of regret on PC's part.

I try to play tough characters and I don't go for Anomen.

As for kids, somehow they always manage to wiggle their way in my endings. I had a son and twin daughters, for feel free to smack me. I have at least two endings where PC ascends and Sarevok is her right hand man without chilens.

And Epitomy and I are gonna sit down and have a e-mail to e-mail discussion of game plan.

[Aeryn]

I have way too much time on my hands today... I went ahead and wrote a quick one for Aerie to see if it's the kind of thing you're looking for. It's short, so it only took a few minutes, but since no one except me has read it I'm sure it has mistakes. And I'm very aware that my .d sucks...I plan to learn it better, but my kids tend to distract from me learning anything new. If you'd like, since there seems to be plenty of help on the romance itself, I can tinker away at some NPC interjections like this for the next few weeks/months when I have the time.

Aerie

IF ~~ sa1ar
SAY ~<CHARNAME>? Can?can I speak to you for a moment?~
++ ~Of course, Aerie. What?s on your mind?~ + sa1ar.1
++ ~What?s wrong now?~ + sa1ar.1
++ ~From the look on your face, I?m going to guess this is about Sarevok.~ + sa1ar.2
++ ~Whatever it is, I don?t want to hear it.~ + sa1ar.3
END

IF ~~ sa1ar.1
SAY ~I-I?m just?confused I suppose. Sarevok is?was your enemy. He tried to kill you a-and killed the only father you ever knew! And now?it seems like?~
++ ~Like??~ +sa1ar.4
++ ~Like I?m sleeping with the enemy.~ + sa1ar.2
++ ~I don?t really give a damn about your opinion, Aerie.~ + sa1ar.3
++ ~My private life is none of your business.~ + sa1ar.4
END

IF ~~ sa1ar.2
SAY ~Well?yes.~
IF ~~ + sa1ar.4
END

IF ~~ sa1ar.3
SAY ~P-perhaps not?but?~
IF ~~ + sa1ar.4
END

IF ~~ sa1ar.4
SAY ~Maybe i-it?s not my concern, but Sarevok is a dangerous man, and I?m worried about you getting?entangled with him.~
++ ~Thank you for the concern, but I can take care of myself.~ + sa1ar.5
++ ~He?s not as dangerous as you make him out to be. He?s changing.~ + sa1ar.6
++ ~Don?t be. I don?t need a babysitter.~ + sa1ar.5
++ ~Save your pity for yourself, Aerie.~ + sa1ar.7
++ ~But getting ?entangled? with the dangerous man is the best part.~ + sa1ar.8
END

IF ~~ sa1ar.5
SAY ~I know.~
IF ~~ + sa1ar.9
END

IF ~~ sa1ar.6
SAY ~I don?t think a man like him knows how to change, <CHARNAME>.~
IF ~~ + sa1ar.9
END

IF ~~ sa1ar.7
SAY ~I?~
IF ~~ + sa1ar.9
END

IF ~~ sa1ar.8
SAY ~<CHARNAME>!~
IF ~~ + sa1ar.9
END

IF ~~ sa1ar.9
SAY ~I was just thinking that?if I met one of the men from the circus now, one of the ones who caged me and c-cut off my wings?I-I can?t imagine letting him touch me?or?~
++ ~I understand, Aerie, and I?m glad you?re watching out for me.~ + sa1ar.11
++ ~But Sarevok is not those men, and he?s not even the man same man he was a few years ago! I promise you, he?s changing.~ + sa1ar.12
++ ~Everything will be fine, Aerie. Stop worrying so much.~ + sa1ar.11
++ ~So this isn?t even about me and Sarevok ? this is about your own insecurity.~ + sa1ar.13
++ ~How many times do I have to tell you to mind your own damned business?~ + sa1ar.11
END

IF ~~ sa1ar.11
SAY ~Just?be careful, <CHARNAME>. Please.~
IF ~~ EXIT
END

IF ~~ sa1ar.12
SAY ~If you believe that, then I will trust your judgement.~
IF ~~ + sa1ar.11
END

IF ~~ sa1ar.13
SAY ~No! I just?~
IF ~~ + sa1ar.11
END