470 replies to this topic

[Thanatos.]

Yeesh, seems we have a lot of writers and zilch coders huh. On a completely unrelated note, If I didn't catch the trusted friends sarcasm. I doubt other players will

[Icendoan]

I'd do some sort of "open coding" with you, and make sure the structures are clearly put in place, and try and teach one of you lot to code along the way.

Icen

[SConrad]

Hello everybody. I've been sporadically following this topic since its inception with lukewarm interest, but decided to spend some time to read through it all and respond. Sarevok is my favorite canon NPC, after all. He's probably even my favorite character in all of the Baldur's Gate trilogy.

Unfortunately, my enthusiasm for the project is not much warmer than it was an hour and a half ago when I started.

My general feeling is that this mod idea and the material that has been produced for it doesn't interest me. To be perfectly honest, my own opinion is that a Sarevok romance isn't feasible, and it doesn't appeal to me. I can't see the possibility of it being much more than purely physical in the short timespan that is ToB, and if it's just sleeping with him... it's just sleeping with him. Submit to Romantic Encounters and move on.

I believe a platonic relationship have a much larger potential of actually adding depth to the character than if the PC is trying to sex him up at the same time, because you'll have more time and opportunity to focus on what's really interesting--his character, what made him the way he is and what lies ahead of him. Otherwise, half of your dialogues will be about rolling around in the bed sheets and that limits the available space for anything else. You're looking at a maximum of 4-5 "lovetalks" in ToB in order to not make it feel as if you're moving it along with force, and 4-5 isn't a whole lot of talks do something with.

Anyway. You seem to be set on doing a romance, and I've seen other mod ideas I like a whole lot less come into fruition. If you want to do a romance, however, my advice is to start anew from a different outset.

It's possible that I've missed something crucial somewhere, but from my perspective, this topic has been mainly about what stats the PC should have and how the other NPCs will feel about the relationship; aside from several semi-random "lovetalks." To me, the both of those things--and many other minor details that have been the source of discussion--are inconsequential at this point. The core of this mod has to be about the dialogues Sarevok has with the PC; what they're about and in what order they should come. There should be a continuing and progressing story--even if it's short and sweet and simple--interwoven in the lovetalks, and that should be the first priority before deciding what Valygar feels about it or if the PC needs to have more than 9 in intelligence to do it. If you plan what will be the cornerstones of the mod--4-5 well-thought and interesting out lovetalks--the other things will fall into place. Trust me on that.

The best post in the entire topic is this one. To my chagrin, it was all but completely ignored. Erdbeere was completely right on the money with what needs to happen to get this project to progress.

After over 380 posts in this topic, it's quite clear that there are several people who are determined to see this through. That's a good thing. You guys seem to have the dedication required to actually create a mod, and that puts you a giant step ahead of most other people with mod ideas.

As for my Sarevok friendship/relationship for IEP, I'd classify it as "temporarily shelved." I'm currently focusing all of my own modding time for Khadion, but I still have ideas of what I want to do with Sarevok and I believe that I'll be able to create most of the material over a productive weekend at some point when I feel particularly inspired. I still intend to get to it.

Oh, and:

Experienced Coder? Try to convince Icen or SConrad to help, or learn how to do it yourself. This Is a good place to start.

[Icendoan]

What SConrad said, it is some very good advice.

Also, Sconrad should be mentioned before me, as he is by far a more experienced coder.

Icen

[HighTimeRodeo]

*Deep Breath*

I won't say I like what SConrad said. Matter of fact, I don't like it at all.

But he's right.

We've been focusing on reactions, stats and things not related to getting it actually done. We've been batting around ideas and not getting anything done

We need to get the love talks written and posted, and this is a personal nitpick, stop obssessing over every little detail. Perfection comes with time. If they're out of character, we can fix it before we show it to K'aerolee, or however it's spelled.

The second problem is the most major concern: TOB is too d@mn short. We could add areas, but where and why I don't know.

We need coders and not just people to teach us. I want to learn, I honestly do, but learning as we go won't do anything for us.

SConrad is also right about starting from a new perspective and going a different direction. The best way to describe Sarevok is supreme confidence bordering on arrogance, little tolerance for fools and a great intellect. His whole life had been shattered by the woman who brought him back to life and he's trying to figure out how to deal with that.

A favorite fanfic of mine had his state of mind framed perfectly in one sentence 'You can either be her lover or her brother'. Instead of just a romance, have the ability for a totally platonic relationship. It'll be hard to fit them into 4-5 talks, maybe a sixth if we tack one or two onto the alignment change talks.

If we really do want to get this out where it will have any kind of attraction to anyone, we need to start again.

Oh, and Conrad?

It's 382 posts.

[-JR-]

My general feeling is that this mod idea and the material that has been produced for it doesn't interest me. To be perfectly honest, my own opinion is that a Sarevok romance isn't feasible, and it doesn't appeal to me. I can't see the possibility of it being much more than purely physical in the short timespan that is ToB, and if it's just sleeping with him... it's just sleeping with him. Submit to Romantic Encounters and move on.

I believe a platonic relationship have a much larger potential of actually adding depth to the character than if the PC is trying to sex him up at the same time, because you'll have more time and opportunity to focus on what's really interesting--his character, what made him the way he is and what lies ahead of him. Otherwise, half of your dialogues will be about rolling around in the bed sheets and that limits the available space for anything else. You're looking at a maximum of 4-5 "lovetalks" in ToB in order to not make it feel as if you're moving it along with force, and 4-5 isn't a whole lot of talks do something with.

To be honest, this is how I feel too. Not that I wouldn't be able to give writing assistance if you wanted it, I'd just have to twist my perspective a bit, since I can't see it in the Sarevok I know. I agree it's a doable project, especially due to your quite evident and admirable passion for it, it's just not my cup of tea.

[SConrad]

I won't say I like what SConrad said. Matter of fact, I don't like it at all.

I didn't think you would. But the sum of the matter is that after four months and all of these pages, (the collective) you actually have very little to show in terms of progress. And seeing how (again, the collective) you have overlooked good advice before, I felt I should express it the way I did in order to get your attention. It seems to have worked.

We need coders and not just people to teach us. I want to learn, I honestly do, but learning as we go won't do anything for us.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I believe you'll find it hard to get an experienced coder to do it for you. It definitely won't happen as long as the mod is as disjointed and vague as it is now.

Coding this potential mod is actually much simpler than you believe. Setting up the foundation would take about ten minutes, and coding talks and banters is not a difficult task once you know how to do it. You're not going to have an overwhelming amount of material, so the complexity of what you're trying to do shouldn't be overwhelming either.

Why not learn as you go? I used to teach coding for a living, and I believe that the best way to learn is through application--if you're trying to do something, you'll need to raise your own level of knowlegde in order to figure out how to do it. That's how your skills will develop. That's how most people learn.

There's plenty of tutorials and information around in the community. It's all been done before. Check out similar mods to see how they do it. Ask questions to people who know. Remember, all of the people you describe as "coders" also started out where you are now. I don't for a second believe we're very different than you.

Oh, and Conrad?

It's 382 posts.

I think 382 falls under the scope of "over 380."

[HighTimeRodeo]

Well, it was the kick I needed. So, thanks.

You're right about the platonic relationship, but some people, like me, Aeryn and others want a romantic relationship with Sarevok.

I'm thinking that Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral and Lawful evil will be the platonic way to go. Neutral Good, True Neutral and Neutral Evil as more flirty platonic and the Chaotics, possibly True Neutral (haven't decided), should be the romantic alignments. Anything else is out of character for both PC and Sarevok.

I've followed the tutorials (those I could understand) and I believe I've coded a test dialog properly, but It will not work on my computer. I'll have to abduct my brother's computer for testing of it.

As for the dialogs, we can key them to the Bhaalspawn fights, a couple of the Challenge rooms and some of the smaller events. I've played TOB time after time and I've pretty much got it memorized (no life) and I think there is room for set-up dialogs if we set them at random, closer, intervals and not just keyed to the big pictures. I'd like to make the 'ending' for the romantic relationships definite, but that's what the epilogue's are for.

My biggest beef with TOB was even if you changed Sarevok's alignment and he mentions he'd like to travel with you, all he gets it 'put on a bus' to borrow a Trope name.

Anything else can be done in later versions.

Sentinel, do you think you can write platonic Sarevok?

And Conrad, know where I can find any books on Coding?

[GeN1e]

As for the dialogs, we can key them to the Bhaalspawn fights, a couple of the Challenge rooms and some of the smaller events. I've played TOB time after time and I've pretty much got it memorized (no life) and I think there is room for set-up dialogs if we set them at random, closer, intervals and not just keyed to the big pictures.

I believe it's possible to spread about 10 conversations around the ToB. 4-5 can go tied to plot events, much like vanilla ToB romances do, 1-3 - to certain locations (like, one randomly during Sendai Enclave, another - during Abazigal's Lair), the remaining ones can be just fillers and go as random banters.

[Icendoan]

And there are hundreds (almost literally) of tutorials that would get the base for this sort of mod set up, and honestly, learning as you go does work (I can say I am living proof). I have taught myself WeiDU through the help of modders (which are here), tutorials (also here) and persistence (which I daresay you already have).

Answering things not directed at me: you won't find any books on WeiDU, for sure. You could probably compile the readme and every tutorial and make one, but the web is your only resource for WeiDU. General coding, however, I wouldn't know.

Icen

[Orthodoxia]

I'm thinking that Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral and Lawful evil will be the platonic way to go. Neutral Good, True Neutral and Neutral Evil as more flirty platonic and the Chaotics, possibly True Neutral (haven't decided), should be the romantic alignments. Anything else is out of character for both PC and Sarevok.

Just one question please, do you really mean to restrict romance based on PC's alignment or did I misread and misunderstood something?

[HighTimeRodeo]

I'm thinking that Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral and Lawful evil will be the platonic way to go. Neutral Good, True Neutral and Neutral Evil as more flirty platonic and the Chaotics, possibly True Neutral (haven't decided), should be the romantic alignments. Anything else is out of character for both PC and Sarevok.

Just one question please, do you really mean to restrict romance based on PC's alignment or did I misread and misunderstood something?

No, you didn't.

We can sit and banter back and forth what PC's would and wouldn't do all day long and not get a blessed thing done. I hate to do it, but if we want a base for this to get done, we need to set up what to work on. No lawful character, good, neutral or evil, is gonna romance someone who continually calls them 'sister'. And flirty Neutral characters are, well, flirty.

I'm trying to change this around so something will actually get done for it, instead of me just dinking around with it. I'm really the main problem because I'm second-guessing everything because we're concerned with quality before we have some to make quality work and I'm discouraged because my (bleep)ing computer won't run the coding right.

GeN1e:

I like the idea of putting some of the dialogs randomly in the enclaves. We can put a starting dialog right after meeting Melissan and have Sarevok start by saying 'I do not trust her' and running with it.

Question: Can the PC start a conversation?

[GeN1e]

Question: Can the PC start a conversation?

Spellhold and Tree of Life both have it. On the other hand, there'll be no choice for PC what to say.

[HighTimeRodeo]

Question: Can the PC start a conversation?

Spellhold and Tree of Life both have it. On the other hand, there'll be no choice for PC what to say.

Oh, you just made this whole things so much easier for me. Thank you! *rubs hand evilly*

[HighTimeRodeo]

Here's the Coded dialog, courtesy of Icendoan.

I put it in the PM Icen sent me for it, 'cause I'm a little new at this.

Attached Files

•  Irenicus_Talk.htm   51.61K   237 downloads

[Icendoan]

I'll let someone else spot any and all bugs >_<

Icen

[GeN1e]

Have corrected two typos. Also, I took a liberty to alter it a bit, so that the talk is initiated by PC (after all, that makes more sense). What I couldn't do was to actually test it ingame - it refuses start a new game, and from my last save it's still way too long to get into ToB. I doubt it won't work, however.


2 Icen
Try to avoid using StartDialog unless it's exactly what you need. It turned out to be not as harmless as it would appear to - http://forums.gibber...showtopic=16948.

Attached Files

•  sarevok.rar   472.14K   207 downloads

[xdeathplanetx]

I'm currently focusing all of my own modding time for Khadion, but I still have ideas of what I want to do with Sarevok and I believe that I'll be able to create most of the material over a productive weekend at some point when I feel particularly inspired. I still intend to get to it.

is good to know u whant finish Khalidon this is the better news of the week now

[Icendoan]

2 Icen
Try to avoid using StartDialog unless it's exactly what you need. It turned out to be not as harmless as it would appear to - http://forums.gibber...showtopic=16948.

Oh, wow. This wasn't mentioned in the IESDP.

Taken a note of it. Use StartDialogueOverride() instead. As a side query, which dialog file does Dialog() refer to?

Icen

[GeN1e]

As a side query, which dialog file does Dialog() refer to?

The one that's specified in creature's 'dialog' field, in other words - J. Same goes for StartDialogNoSet, while Interact() uses B, and StartDialog[Override]() - the one they've been told to.