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Version 3.0 release date update


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#161 Qwinn

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 10:11 AM

I suppose in my mind the single most potent argument against the idea that it was a design decision is, why then has no other game I can think of ever done it this way? I can't think of any other game that makes you even half again as fast as all of your opponents, never mind 5-8 times as fast. Nor can I imagine that any designer, never mind ones as talented as these guys, would say "Yes, let's have the PC able to move five to eight times faster than every enemy, otherwise the game might be too difficult for some people." I mean, c'mon. RPG's are already historically much much easier than every other genre of game out there, but this is just way too much.

Nor can I imagine that the talented designers in question would agree that making every creature have the intelligence of invertebrates, unable to even think to run in combat, would be a legitimate way to tune game difficulty.

The fact that everyone seems to agree that PS:T is much too easy -even compared to other RPGs- just confirms that to me. Trust me, I've played through the whole game this way, and it's effect is to raise the combat from "trivial" to "easy". This doesn't suddenly turn it into a hack-and-slash gruelfest, believe me.

Qwinn

P.S. Actually, there -are- differences in various creature's running speed. The zombie I tested with looked silly fast from a graphical standpoint, but I was still able to outrun it very very easily. Testing Curst Guards in the prison, I could still outrun them, but it's a lot more of a race.

Edited by Qwinn, 17 December 2008 - 10:20 AM.


#162 scient

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 10:23 AM

I agree there is a thin line between a fix and tweak. I tend to be a purist when it comes to games but I think Qwinn has made a good case for adding this as part of the fixpack. The strongest point that supports this wasn't as intended are the inconsistencies between NPC's of the same type in different areas. I can't think of a logical explanation why some would be faster then others. Maybe easy access to meth in the Clerk's Ward?

As long as it's done selectively, I can't think of an argument against it. If none of the NPC's used the running attack then it's a different issue. But it's pretty apparent toward the end things were rushed and there wasn't enough time to polish it up. Case in point, the morale system. If this was left as it shipped, morale would still be at 10 even tho there were things like Dak's quest line. I rewrote almost all of the main morale functions to get it working. So would I consider resolving inconsistencies a fix? Yes.

Edited by scient, 17 December 2008 - 10:26 AM.

Those interested in the classic TBS game Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri / Alien Crossover should check out the unofficial patch I work on here.


#163 Qwinn

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 11:35 AM

Yah, I'm being very selective about it, and testing each one thoroughly.

And it occurs to me that one place in Sigil that does very much need it is the Tenement of Thugs, for a variety of reasons. That room with the ton of thugs that is the challenge of the whole area is essentially trivial if you can blast past all of them with super-speed and there not even being a slight chance of their getting a swing in at you. There remain very viable (and in fact intended) ways of your getting through there without combat, and other fixes in this version aim toward making them doable. Leaving it such that avoiding all the combat is trivially easy with a single mouse click also makes doing it the intended ways a waste of time. If they can run, they can actually block your path towards the far door, which I very very very much do believe was intended. Again, you'll see what I mean when you see it in action.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 17 December 2008 - 11:45 AM.


#164 Qwinn

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 12:09 PM

And might I say, I thought I'd caught most spelling/grammar/punctuation errors in the last passes. Not even close. I've found a shitload more, and fixed them.

Still on schedule for release sometime Wednesday (today), though probably not till after dark, heh.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 17 December 2008 - 12:10 PM.


#165 Qwinn

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 12:59 PM

Okay, I never say things like this, but.... ZOMFGWTFBBQ!!!11!1!

I cannot tell you how different the game feels with the running attack thing fixed. Hell is actually -scary- now (even if still not actually very difficult). Wait till you see what it's like having a huge pack of grilligs or gronks bearing down on you -fast- in the first layer of hell, lol, and knowing that if you run away they'll actually -chase- you. OMG, it's night and day. Looking back, it's like "How did I ever think crossing this area of the first layer of hell was fun before"? And then I realize... "Actually, it never was." Believe me, now it is, lol. Night and freaking day.

There is no WAY something like this just happens accidentally. This is freaking art. Trust me... -this was intended-.

I called those other changes profound, and they are, but nothing like this. The creatures not running thing has got to be the single biggest bug in the game. Wait till you see the difference. It's amazing.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 17 December 2008 - 01:05 PM.


#166 -Guest-

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 02:01 PM

Wow. Just wow. Can't wait.

#167 InTourette

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 02:08 PM

Cant wait to see it.. sounds fantastic :)

#168 Daulmakan

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 04:42 PM

Can you name a single other game, anywhere, ever, that has done this?

Diablo II, Jedi Knight. The Speed Burst family from the KotOR games also says hi.

Hell, in most games, some creatures move -faster- than you, to make up for poor AI versus human intelligence, not the other way around.

Indeed, that's why I said relatively (as in average enemy speed).

I think the vast majority of players would disagree that combat balance has been achieved in PS:T. Check out the RPG Codex thread where I discussed the other two fixes. If there's one thing that's pretty much universally agreed upon, it's that combat balance in PS:T is terribly broken.

Considering there's only 4 necessary battles, and the vast majority of your XP comes from dialogues, I have no qualm thinking that claim that PS:T's combat system is broken is hazardous, at best.

Incorrect. There are exceptions. About 50% of the Harmonium Guards in the Clerk's Ward run. Harmonium Guards elsewhere do not. Trelons in Curst Underground run. Trelons in Acheron and in UnderSigil cannot. Creatures fleeing during morale break, or under the effect of Litany of Curses can run. That's all I can find. Do those inconsistencies -also- make sense to you?

Put that way, no, but I'm hardly a technical expert. Wether the problem is due to bad scripting, design, mistake, or what.

I don't think the burden of proof rests on me to explain why TNO, Morte, Dak'kon, Ignus, Nordom, Fall-From-Grace and Vhailor, alone out of almost all of Creation, aren't the only ones capable of the physical feat of running when under life-threatening distress.

It is when you're trying to pass it as developer intent. Again, I'm not questioning the logic behind the move itself (it's an understandable modification, wether one agrees or not), but its inclusion in the Fixpack.

I disagree. I think something as utterly unprecedented and inexplicable as "In almost all cases, your opponents will move 60-70% slower than you" would get a mention in the manual, if only to explain why.

See above and earlier posts.

What you're suggesting is that it is common practice in game manuals to say "Your opponents do not move 70% slower than you." Please.

Really, when you rightfully claim the manual to be an accurate source of developer intent, you can't claim the same for the abscence from it.

Spoiler

That makes perfect sense.

I don't suppose the fact that the party is immobilized in that moment is of any relevance?

And if players really don't want to deal with combat at all, they can also of course put the difficulty slider on easy. But IMHO, if you want to play the "avoids combat all the time" type of player, that's a lot more fun to do by having to be sneaky, diplomatic, etc. It shouldn't be because the AI of almost every creature is so dumb that they're actually incapable of -chasing- you. And if you're going to run away from everything, which is perfectly fine, you should at least have to -run-.

That's exactly my point. The game itself doesn't deal with combat at all. Why should that be changed? Because it'd make fights more interesting? Because it has a certain logic to it? Fine, by all means, stick in the tweak pack. But it is not because of clear proof of developer intent, not to me.

I suppose in my mind the single most potent argument against the idea that it was a design decision is, why then has no other game I can think of ever done it this way? I can't think of any other game that makes you even half again as fast as all of your opponents, never mind 5-8 times as fast. Nor can I imagine that any designer, never mind ones as talented as these guys, would say "Yes, let's have the PC able to move five to eight times faster than every enemy, otherwise the game might be too difficult for some people." I mean, c'mon. RPG's are already historically much much easier than every other genre of game out there, but this is just way too much.

TNO can't attack twice as fast as the other creatures if I'm not mistaken. The only difference this makes is for running around, right? Though it could mean reaching spellcasters earlier too...

The fact that everyone seems to agree that PS:T is much too easy -even compared to other RPGs- just confirms that to me. Trust me, I've played through the whole game this way, and it's effect is to raise the combat from "trivial" to "easy". This doesn't suddenly turn it into a hack-and-slash gruelfest, believe me.

I haven't seen it, but I'd probably agree. But not everyone. Or in any case, not for the same reasons.

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#169 Qwinn

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 04:50 PM

Your complaints are noted. They are not convincing. Particularly not the "I suppose the fact that your party is immobized is irrelevant" bit. Yes, it is. I'm not sure what that has to do with the fact that the wererats are... running... and still running when you are no longer immobilized... and yet can't run when they are attacking you or you are attacking them.

There isn't a living creature alive on Earth, besides the previously excepted possum, that doesn't move as quickly as it can when it is attacking or being attacked. It is probably the only thing that everything alive has in common. And yet, I have the burden of proof that it's not -supposed- to be the opposite of that in this game? Okay. Here, I'll prove it. "Living things in PS:T casually walk when they are attacked or attacking. This even includes ravening demons. This is insane." There. Proved.

I mean, seriously. Demons. Devils. In the first level of hell. Ravening, drooling, swiping at you with claws and fangs... and unable to bring themselves to even jog after you. You can actually outwalk them. It... is... insane. It defies common sense on every level.

Besides, the only game you listed that I've played at all is Diablo 2 (for about 10 minutes, then I got bored and never played it again), and NO, you are NOT five to eight times faster than everything else in Diablo 2, not even close. The ratios aren't remotely comparable.

TNO can't attack twice as fast as the other creatures if I'm not mistaken.


Yes, actually, effectively, he can, as well as everyone else in your party. As I already pointed out, when a walking creature bumps into something, it stops briefly before moving again. In combat, this effectively neutralizes, I'd guesstimate about 80% of the attacks for creatures in the second line and back. The Running fix fixes that too.

That's exactly my point. The game itself doesn't deal with combat at all. Why should that be changed?


I'm afraid I can't even begin to puzzle out what any of that means. Are you suggesting that because it's -possible- to avoid most combats, therefore combat is not a part of this game? That's... I can't respond to that politely, I'm afraid. And not that making creatures run changes any of that, you can still avoid every fight you used to be able to. You just can't escape almost every creature in the game by -walking- yourself now, which is ludicrous.

RunningAttack is going into the Fixpack. Because it is clearly, overwhelmingly a bug. And when you see it, you will understand it. I did ask that you try it before passing judgment, since you:

1) admitted that you are "hardly a technical expert. Wether the problem is due to bad scripting, design, mistake, or what."

and

2) you haven't seen the alternative.

But it does appear that that was too much to ask.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 17 December 2008 - 05:24 PM.


#170 Daulmakan

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 05:24 PM

RunningAttack is going into the Fixpack.

That's been your prerogative since the very beginning. You might want to skip all the things that go below, though, it's more on the same.

Particularly not the "I suppose the fact that your party is immobized is irrelevant" bit. Yes, it is. I'm not sure what that has to do with the fact that the wererats are... running... and still running when you are no longer immobilized... and yet can't run when they are attacking you or you are attacking them.

Because having them take Morte walking instead of running would be more annoying for the player.

Besides, the only game you listed that I've played at all is Diablo 2, and NO, you are NOT five to eight times faster than everything else in Diablo 2, not even close. The ratios aren't remotely comparable.

I never claimed 8x differential, that was you. You asked for examples for games where you were faster than most of the creatures in the game and I gave them. Your claim that no game ever did such a thing is wrong.

TYes, actually, effectively, he can, as well as everyone else in your party. As I already pointed out, when a walking creature bumps into something, it stops briefly before moving again. In combat, this effectively neutralizes, I'd guesstimate about 80% of the attacks for creatures in the second line and back. The Running fix fixes that too.

Walking into something stops the creature, running into something does too?

I'm afraid I can't even begin to puzzle out what any of that means.

If combat is a non-issue in the game, why should it be adressed as such in the fixpack?

Because it is clearly, overwhelmingly a bug. And when you see it, you will understand it. I did ask that you try it before passing judgment, since you:1) admitted that you are "hardly a technical expert. Wether the problem is due to bad scripting, design, mistake, or what."

This is hardly relevant. Why are you even asking all of us our opinions if you think it is?

and 2) you haven't seen the alternative.

I said I would try it. If the addition of this component is controversial, and then it passes muster after being checked in the tweakpack, no one will object to it being added to the fixpack. The other way around might discourage some players to try it. Not me, I've said that already.

But it does appear that that was too much to ask.

Well, if it bothers you that much, I can easily stop posting in your mods' forums.

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#171 Qwinn

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 05:28 PM

This is hardly relevant. Why are you even asking all of us our opinions if you think it is?


While I have requested opinions on many issues, I didn't request them on this one. All I asked for on this one is that you give me the benefit of the doubt on this decision, and try it before passing judgment.

Walking into something stops the creature, running into something does too?


Not for any appreciable length of time, no.

If combat is a non-issue in the game, why should it be adressed as such in the fixpack?


As I added in an edit before, this statement is too ludicrous for me to respond to politely. I can't comprehend how you can simultaneously claim that combat is A) balanced and B) a "non-issue". The very fact that you are claiming it is a non-issue is prima fascia evidence that it is very, very, very broken. I can't think of a more damning indictment of balance in the game. Even I'm not suggesting it's anywhere near that broken.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 17 December 2008 - 05:37 PM.


#172 Qwinn

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 05:53 PM

Here. For those who don't want to wait to try it before passing judgment, I have a test for you.

Play the vanilla game, but don't click autorun. Walk everywhere.

And play with the intention of avoiding all combat.

You will shortly realize that you can, in fact, -escape- every creature in the game by -walking-. That you can casually walk through Baator and nothing can catch up with you walking.

And if that makes even the remotest bit of sense to you, if you can believe that was intended, if you think the designers thought that people who played their game were that utterly useless, dumb and unskilled that they couldn't handle that kind of difficulty in a game... well, I don't think anything else I can add is going to help matters.

If someone is turned off to my Fixpack because I'm asserting that ravening demons in Hell are capable of running, and think that that means I'm taking wild indefensible liberties with the game, I don't think I'm ever going to be able to make a player like that happy no matter what I do.

So, yeah. It's going in the Fixpack. As I pointed out, I never asked for opinions, nor did I ever say my mind was still open on the subject.

I need a break from this. I'll get back on it tomorrow. Sorry, it won't be out tonight.

Qwinn

#173 scient

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 08:49 PM

I thought I'd add I've resolved the THAC0 issue not updating but I don't have time tonight to finish up coding it. It was actually quite easy to solve once I found it. It already automatically updates on level up so I just need to access it when TNO changes classes. I'll let Qwinn explain any details later.

Those interested in the classic TBS game Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri / Alien Crossover should check out the unofficial patch I work on here.


#174 Qwinn

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 09:55 PM

As it is, it's looking like the next release -will- include all the major fixes recently discussed (consistent HP, class-based THACO and the runningattack fix). Tomorrow night's looking good.

And then I can take a long break... about 8 hours... and then get back to the real job. Heh.

Qwinn

#175 Ezekiell

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 02:23 PM

Wow I'm pretty lucky. I was about to play PS: Torment for the very first time today. Guess I'll wait for the 3.0 fixpack if it's just around the corner.
The work you do Qwinn is very appreciated.

#176 Qwinn

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 02:58 PM

Thanks :) I hope you like it.

In reference to the Immunity-To-Fear issue, I can't really justify granting it to the Fiend FMB... AFAIK his race is not immune to fear. My earlier inclination was based on balance reasons, many of which have since been resolved. The Immunity to Fear fix is only being applied to modrons, constructs, Ravel, Trias and TO on the basis of racial/boss immunities.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 18 December 2008 - 03:00 PM.