36 replies to this topic

[Krimmy]

Didn't even remember this thread...

Anyway, thinking about it now, my statement above is from a good path point of view (always for me), so if someone wanted the evil path I wouldn't think they'd go for redemption and would just slave her out as Bhodi did- although that might not be possible...

What reason would an evil player redeem her? I can't think of one... hmm... did you?

The reason I said before that a redemption should depend on a successful romance was from my good path point of view that "love" would be the only thing powerful enough to make her want redemption or at least move her down the path of redemption. I think you understood but I wanted to make it clear just in case.

The romances are what keep me playing this game, who doesn't like romance?

I like that her redemption will be tough, which means I'll probably have to play several games in parallel to get that outcome  :thumb:

Edited by Krimmy, 16 June 2005 - 03:34 PM.

[Thorium Dragon]

When Valen is redeemed wouldn't she just be a normal fighter/thief or whatever class you picked her as? Doesn't it somewhat defeat the point of having a vampire?

If you are of that opinion, you don't have to take that road.

I imagine others would be interested from a role-playing perspective or just plain, old curiosity.

[Chooch]

So if she is redeemed she is no longer a vampire?

I thought that by being redeemed she was no longer evil? Then again I think you did mention previously that you where trying to stay away from good and evil.

Does vampires always have to be evil?

[Thorium Dragon]

So if she is redeemed she is no longer a vampire?

I thought that by being redeemed she was no longer evil? Then again I think you did mention previously that you where trying to stay away from good and evil.

Does vampires always have to be evil?

Answering those questions would blow the whole story of her redemption, so I'll have to say "no comment" with regards to all of that.

[Oni]

Does vampires always have to be evil?

I'd say no. Read the Ravenloft novel 'Vampire of the Mists' (by Christie Golden) sometime. It's main character is one Jander Sunstar, a 500 year old gold elf vampire and he was most definately not evil. Hope this helps.

[Starfire Angel]

So if she is redeemed she is no longer a vampire?

I thought that by being redeemed she was no longer evil? Then again I think you did mention previously that you where trying to stay away from good and evil.

Does vampires always have to be evil?

Vampires are a lot like drow....99.99% of them are evil.....but hey look at drizzt

[GeN1e]

Drow is elven subrace, while vampirism is infection. If you are noble paladin you may really want to save your love from terrible disease. However I don't know if vampirism could be cured at that stage of progress. The only chance that I can think about is godly power, which is coming to main hero during the game.

[Sevarus]

Options are always a good thing to have, however Valen has to WANT to come back, and I'm not sure how you would go about that. Personally, a chance at redemption would make this mod a must-have for me.

[vonVince]

I hadn't noticed this topic when I gave my thoughts of including something like this in other topic, but here we go.

I think there should be a chance - a chance; that's all - to make Valen "less evil", akin to chance one has in the Throne of Bhaal with Viconia and Sarevok. After all, if has a chance to redeem the man who had the Sword Coast run red with blood, who is to say that another evil (even lesser), cannot change?

[Fury945]

So if she is redeemed she is no longer a vampire?

I thought that by being redeemed she was no longer evil? Then again I think you did mention previously that you where trying to stay away from good and evil.

Does vampires always have to be evil?

Vampires are a lot like drow....99.99% of them are evil.....but hey look at drizzt

Actually most of a vampire's evil comes from it's control over its instincts (or lack of control), for some their hunger overcomes them, for others it has little or no effect on them, which of these is Valen? and was she evil before she was turned?
just a little something to think about.
and who's to say a cure is out of the question? watch the movie Daybreakers, all those vampire had been vampires for years upon end and in the end several were cured. Valen just wont be able to be cured by Bodhi's heart and the altar of Amaunator.
it adds in the chance for a long quest to make her lifeless heart beat again and return the soul that fled long ago.

Edited by Fury945, 30 October 2010 - 05:11 PM.

[Zyraen]

Considering that a "plausible" Irenicus Redemption has been written and pulled off - the Longer Road - logically, Valen's redemption would be possible but very difficult.

However, there are some minor differences. I gather that Irenicus is still considered "alive" in some way, in the Longer Road, whereas Valen is definitely, 100% undead, and a Vampire too. Romantic notions of vampires in other literature aside, some care should be taken with this.

Notably, a Vampire is a very different creature from even say, a Drow (Viconia, Solaufein). They are not living breathing creatures, they have totally different tastes where sustenance comes into play, and due to certain /daylight issues likely a rather different social life. This isn't modern day with the clubbing scene, and the vibrant night life and 24 hr shopping, the main things that occur at night would be - thievery, robbery, prostitution.

Which begs the question - where would Redemption end up ? What would be the point for a Vampire? Redemption or corruption, there must ultimately be some kind of motivation.

Redemption makes sense for most characters in that life can regain a normalcy, or sometimes one on the deathbed can die with fewer regrets / some semblance of peace. Regardless, it should make sense. What would be a "normal" life with "no regrets" for a Vampire? Given their supposed role as (un)natural predators of humanoidity (since there are many other races available in AD&D), something that is Redemption for them is probably utterly different from what is Redemption for others. I might be weird, I think breaking free of Bodhi in the Spellhold Maze in vanilla BG2 is pretty much "Redemption" already. After all, Vampires want to be their own powerful predator, master/mistress of their own unlives.

Alternatively, I guess it could be along the lines of "Oh, I'm redeemed. I quit being a Vampire."
Valen : You know that thing you mentioned about being good at all? I want to give it a shot, try banishing all the evil from me. See what good is left.
Keldorn : Sounds great! *Turn Undead*
Valen : Thanks, old "pal". *SPLATTERS*
Keldorn : Anytime.
So... where would that leave the Player? One less party member?

Of course, another way would probably involve some kind of deity turning her back into human, which would make more sense from a Player POV, if she doesn't loses her.. wait. All the abilities that make her outstanding, Backstab aside, are all Vampire Related...

Valen (Human) : Outstanding, My Vampire Claws are still with me!
Keldorn : The good or evil of a weapon lies only in its wielder.
Valen (Human) : Wooh, I still retain my innate Domination (3/day) and everything else too!
Pretty munchkin / lame, I think.

That said, I suppose it makes for more RP options, and Fighter Thief is still decent.

Edit : just had a really silly idea, but it was so funny it made me laugh.

The first act of CHARNAME, the new God of Murder, was to fulfill the wish of PRO_HERHIS long time companion Valen, to become Human again. This was to be the first act of Murder committed by CHARNAME in his new portfolio, though the effect would be seen a considerable time later, when Valen had time to bitterly regret her desire to be human again.

Edited by Zyraen, 30 May 2011 - 08:47 PM.

[Thorium Dragon]

Considering that a "plausible" Irenicus Redemption has been written and pulled off - the Longer Road - logically, Valen's redemption would be possible but very difficult.

However, there are some minor differences. I gather that Irenicus is still considered "alive" in some way, in the Longer Road, whereas Valen is definitely, 100% undead, and a Vampire too. Romantic notions of vampires in other literature aside, some care should be taken with this.

Notably, a Vampire is a very different creature from even say, a Drow (Viconia, Solaufein). They are not living breathing creatures, they have totally different tastes where sustenance comes into play, and due to certain /daylight issues likely a rather different social life. This isn't modern day with the clubbing scene, and the vibrant night life and 24 hr shopping, the main things that occur at night would be - thievery, robbery, prostitution.

Which begs the question - where would Redemption end up ? What would be the point for a Vampire? Redemption or corruption, there must ultimately be some kind of motivation.

Redemption makes sense for most characters in that life can regain a normalcy, or sometimes one on the deathbed can die with fewer regrets / some semblance of peace. Regardless, it should make sense. What would be a "normal" life with "no regrets" for a Vampire? Given their supposed role as (un)natural predators of humanoidity (since there are many other races available in AD&D), something that is Redemption for them is probably utterly different from what is Redemption for others. I might be weird, I think breaking free of Bodhi in the Spellhold Maze in vanilla BG2 is pretty much "Redemption" already. After all, Vampires want to be their own powerful predator, master/mistress of their own unlives.

Alternatively, I guess it could be along the lines of "Oh, I'm redeemed. I quit being a Vampire."
Valen : You know that thing you mentioned about being good at all? I want to give it a shot, try banishing all the evil from me. See what good is left.
Keldorn : Sounds great! *Turn Undead*
Valen : Thanks, old "pal". *SPLATTERS*
Keldorn : Anytime.
So... where would that leave the Player? One less party member?

Of course, another way would probably involve some kind of deity turning her back into human, which would make more sense from a Player POV, if she doesn't loses her.. wait. All the abilities that make her outstanding, Backstab aside, are all Vampire Related...

Valen (Human) : Outstanding, My Vampire Claws are still with me!
Keldorn : The good or evil of a weapon lies only in its wielder.
Valen (Human) : Wooh, I still retain my innate Domination (3/day) and everything else too!
Pretty munchkin / lame, I think.

That said, I suppose it makes for more RP options, and Fighter Thief is still decent.

Edit : just had a really silly idea, but it was so funny it made me laugh.

The first act of CHARNAME, the new God of Murder, was to fulfill the wish of PRO_HERHIS long time companion Valen, to become Human again. This was to be the first act of Murder committed by CHARNAME in his new portfolio, though the effect would be seen a considerable time later, when Valen had time to bitterly regret her desire to be human again.

All good points and the last idea is a very good one from a storytelling perspective. Howvever it seems the new generation of gods seem remarkably powerless against vampirism. It took a dead god to pull it off in the game. Something to think about.