86 replies to this topic

[Azkyroth]

I don't recall my beliefs* (or the content of Keldorn's, as opposed to the presentation) previously entering this discussion.

Hmm. Do we have a fix on Haer'Dalis' age?

[*my declining to contest the "extreme left-wing" label at length here is not to be construed as conceding the non-absurdity of said label

Edited by Azkyroth, 20 August 2008 - 02:14 PM.

[Deva]

Ooh, interesting. I'm gonna give them human ages since I can't be bothered to work the elfy ages out.

Aerie: Like, 19. Though she seems virtually pre-teen.
Viconia: Early to mid-thirties. She's old enough to show off her life experience, but still not comfortable in her own skin.
Jaheira: 45. I don't care if she's romanceable. Older ladiez can be foxy, and theres no way she makes any sense unless she's that kinda age.
Nalia: 18
Imoen: 20

Haer'Dalis... that's a hard one. In terms of maturity, I'd say early twenties. He's the pretentious yet highly doable college boy who reads lots of Sartre and gets all the girls.

Edwin, I'd say around 30. He knows what he's doing, and for all his bluster, gets it done. In real-world terms, he'd be the slightly dodgy businessman who's been around the block a few times.

Edited by Deva, 20 August 2008 - 02:34 PM.

[Scipio]

Jaheira: 45. I don't care if she's romanceable. Older ladiez can be foxy, and theres no way she makes any sense unless she's that kinda age.

Jaheira acts more like a woman of no more than 30. She's not emotionally mature enough or certain enough about herself and the world to be 45. (My woman passed 45 nine years ago.)

[Azkyroth]

Jaheira: 45. I don't care if she's romanceable. Older ladiez can be foxy, and theres no way she makes any sense unless she's that kinda age.

She doesn't strike me as someone who's 45, just someone who thinks she knows as well as those who are, and isn't so completely wrong on that point that the world's already beaten it into her. I think 25-30, having looked after younger kids growing up, matches pretty well.

He's the pretentious yet highly doable college boy who reads lots of Sartre and gets all the girls.

*eyebrow*

[Deva]

Jaheira: 45. I don't care if she's romanceable. Older ladiez can be foxy, and theres no way she makes any sense unless she's that kinda age.

She doesn't strike me as someone who's 45, just someone who thinks she knows as well as those who are, and isn't so completely wrong on that point that the world's already beaten it into her. I think 25-30, having looked after younger kids growing up, matches pretty well.

He's the pretentious yet highly doable college boy who reads lots of Sartre and gets all the girls.

*eyebrow*

25-30? D: So Gorion wanted someone basically 5-10 years older than you to act as a foster parent in the event of his death? No wonder children are running round with knives and things these days, with parenting like that. She's established within the Harpers, been married a seemingly significant length of time (enough for the romance to fade and the 'ugh, Khalid!' to kick in), she assumes a maternal role in BGI, and yes, if she isn't at least ten years older than the PC, deserves a slap in the face for her condescension. A character with her wisdom would know better than to behave as though she was so worldly were she only 5 years older than the person she was addressing.

I think they tried to downplay this in BGII because of the romance, but in BGI there's no question of it for me - Jaheira is the matronly figure of wisdom and guidance and all that jazz. I don't like how they changed their whole character (who was basically a female Keldorn for me in BGI) from someone <CHARNAME> would find indispensable to someone who just gets on my nerves, all because the romance would've been weirdly oedipal if they hadn't.

Also, they changed her portrait from determined-sexy-woman-about-to-kick-butt to shiny-sex-doll-open-mouth-pout-alienface.

/rant.

*Eyebrows your eyebrow*

[vilkacis]

Wait, are you talking about human-equivalent years or actual ones now, and is everyone actually talking about the same kind?

Given that "middle-aged" is 62 for a half-elf and 45 for a human, a half-elf at ~45 actual years should be just about the equivalent of a human in the early thirties.

45 makes sense since she would have been at least 25 when Gorion asks her, which is pretty much "high teens" in human terms; young, yes, but certainly old enough to look after a child.

As for her attitude or being worldly, age doesn't really matter; she's an experienced adventurer, while Charname is a total and utter n00b who has barely been allowed to leave the building for 20 years. She has obviously experienced a great many things first hand that the PC could at most have read about. (Also, include the usual rant here about the game being made for a character with INT and WIS in the 9-10 range, or less; Jaheira can't treat you like some kind of genius when everybody else assumes you're pants-on-head retarded. Although I don't remember it being quite as bad in BG1 as it gets in the sequel.)


* *

Edited by vilkacis, 20 August 2008 - 05:11 PM.

[Kellen]

And for my brief rant.

Jaheira and Khalid have been adventuring for years and are working with the harpers. Kagain's been running a carava business for some time. Xzar and Montaron are theoretically in service to the Zhentarim, and have had to survive years on the streets of Zhentil Keep. And are now being sent by the Zhentarim to investigate the Iron Crisis. Edwin has been studying as a mage for basically all his life, in a country where magecraft is the highest art. Viconia grew up in the underdark, was a priestess of some power, fled the drow, and lived on the surface this long.

And yet they're all level 1.


[/rant]

btw, I never really thought about the age gap when I romanced Jaheira...

Edited by Kellen, 20 August 2008 - 06:46 PM.

[Sister Vigilante]

"Want to come with me, CHARNAME?...Nah, you're still just a kid."


...but to say something serious to justify this post:

Am I the only one starting to suspect that all the romanceable females are elves or half-elves precisely so that Bioware could "have its cake and eat it"--that is, give the PC love interests who had plenty of life-trauma to discuss, while still being impeccably smooth-skinned?

[Azkyroth]

Am I the only one starting to suspect that all the romanceable females are elves or half-elves precisely so that Bioware could "have its cake and eat it"--that is, give the PC love interests who had plenty of life-trauma to discuss, while still being impeccably smooth-skinned?

Seems that way. It's not really as though they've made Jaheira's race even remotely relevant to her plotline, the way I have with my own half-elf NPC. <.< Aerie and Viconia...well, it at least figures in theirs, though even then it's consistent with your characterization.

[Deva]

I thought Khalid being a half-elf was the randomest thing ever. And a pale, ginger half-elf. Isn't he Calimshan? Surely he should look middle-eastern? Also, am I right in thinking there aren't many elven communities in the desert?

It did seem like upon occasion the NPC is written/drawn/wahtever with complete disregard for their back story. Still fun though.

[Kaeloree]

Imoen and the PC are 20, as I recall.

Strangely enough... I remember reading--somewhere--that Jaheira was only a year older than the PC. I can't quantify this, since I can't for the life of me remember where I read this, but I remember it was someone knowledgeable, and I remember thinking "holy crap."

Ahem. In any case.

[Aliya]

You wouldn't say! Can Jaheira, know Gorion, as Harper, only for a year! I remember, that she said, Gorion was her old and good friend!

[vilkacis]

And yet they're all level 1.

Yeah, this bugs me a lot. Best to think of gameplay as completely disconnected from the story.

The high-level characters in BG2 make about as much sense. Nalia, lv. 7+? Right.

"Want to come with me, CHARNAME?...Nah, you're still just a kid."

Charname has enough truoble as is without having robots grow out of his forehead.

Although I'd kill something small, cute and fuzzy for a chance to run around BG2 and beat things up with an electric guitar.

Am I the only one starting to suspect that all the romanceable females are elves or half-elves precisely so that Bioware could "have its cake and eat it"--that is, give the PC love interests who had plenty of life-trauma to discuss, while still being impeccably smooth-skinned?

Isn't that the only point of all elves ever?

Strangely enough... I remember reading--somewhere--that Jaheira was only a year older than the PC. I can't quantify this, since I can't for the life of me remember where I read this, but I remember it was someone knowledgeable, and I remember thinking "holy crap."

To say the least. I don't care how official that is, it makes no sense at all.

[Scipio]

From a commercial point of view, how many copies of BG2 were sold? Two million? If so then I am one of about 1,990,000 buyers who didn't bother to spend much time on the History section in the game manual and who knew virtually nothing about the whole Forgotten Realms universe. The game play was all that mattered. Basically it still is.

It was only after joining SHS to get some lovely free add-ons to BG2 that I saw how fascinating all the background information could be. Until November last year I wasn't interested in timelines and departures from canon or other stuff that had been superfluous before then.

Bioware doubtless knew that customers who might gripe about pre-game historical inconsistencies would make up only a tiny fraction of the target market. In business, fictitious lore counts for little or nothing. Dollars are everything.

Even though I am now becoming more and more immersed in the world of BG/BG2 outside the games themselves, I regularly break the rules anyway. For example, I have used a photo of the actress Mena Suvari as Aerie's portrait. Miss Suvari is 29 (in human years). It doesn't bother me at all that she's too old to be my favourite Avariel.

[Miloch]

Haer'Dalis... that's a hard one. In terms of maturity, I'd say early twenties. He's the pretentious yet highly doable college boy who reads lots of Sartre and gets all the girls.

No, he's not. He's an unemployed wanna-be actor who calls everyone bird names. And he has grey hair. He is probably roughly of humanish age, though with the potential to live longer depending on what kind of freak his demonic parent was. The states in the 2e Planewalker's Handbook are:

Race	   Starting Age Base  Variation  Maximum Age
Tiefling		  17			 2d4	  100+1d100

Jaheira: 45. I don't care if she's romanceable. Older ladiez can be foxy, and theres no way she makes any sense unless she's that kinda age.

People can act older without being older, y'know. And she doesn't strike me as particularly older, just bossy, as even kids can be. Also, to someone who's young, an "old friend" might only mean someone they've known for a few years, if that. Half the people I meet think I'm half my age, and the other half twice it. Perception != reality.

I thought Khalid being a half-elf was the randomest thing ever. And a pale, ginger half-elf. Isn't he Calimshan? Surely he should look middle-eastern? Also, am I right in thinking there aren't many elven communities in the desert?

Not sure which alternate portrait you're using for him, but... "pale, ginger?" He could pass for half Arab, I'm sure (I think his human half is Calishite and elven parent from nearby Tethyr or something).

[MrToughGuy]

I thought Khalid being a half-elf was the randomest thing ever. And a pale, ginger half-elf. Isn't he Calimshan? Surely he should look middle-eastern? Also, am I right in thinking there aren't many elven communities in the desert?

Not sure which alternate portrait you're using for him, but... "pale, ginger?" He could pass for half Arab, I'm sure (I think his human half is Calishite and elven parent from nearby Tethyr or something).

For the first several years that I had that game, I thought that picture of Khalid gave him a black beard. It wasn't until later when I saw larger versions of it that I realized he didn't. Anyway, Khalid's game sprite, if you take his helmet off, is ginger-haired, but I wouldn't say he was pale.

I usually let him die anyway so I can be alone with his wife. Pretty sneaky of her to go and get him resurrected after we defeat Sarevok.

[Crazee]

From a commercial point of view, how many copies of BG2 were sold? Two million? If so then I am one of about 1,990,000 buyers who didn't bother to spend much time on the History section in the game manual and who knew virtually nothing about the whole Forgotten Realms universe. The game play was all that mattered. Basically it still is.

It was only after joining SHS to get some lovely free add-ons to BG2 that I saw how fascinating all the background information could be. Until November last year I wasn't interested in timelines and departures from canon or other stuff that had been superfluous before then.

Bioware doubtless knew that customers who might gripe about pre-game historical inconsistencies would make up only a tiny fraction of the target market. In business, fictitious lore counts for little or nothing. Dollars are everything.

Even though I am now becoming more and more immersed in the world of BG/BG2 outside the games themselves, I regularly break the rules anyway. For example, I have used a photo of the actress Mena Suvari as Aerie's portrait. Miss Suvari is 29 (in human years). It doesn't bother me at all that she's too old to be my favourite Avariel.

Scip, I don't think anyone can disagree with what you're saying, but I think we're still talking (arguing?) about it, because even if Bioware wasn't really very sure, and knew most people couldn't care less, it's still an interesting discussion to have, regardless. It's like wondering if Nalia ever learnt to play an intstrument - I doubt Bioware thought about it (or even implied it in the slightest), but it's an (objectively) interesting point of discussion.

[Azkyroth]

Scip, I don't think anyone can disagree with what you're saying, but I think we're still talking (arguing?) about it, because even if Bioware wasn't really very sure, and knew most people couldn't care less, it's still an interesting discussion to have, regardless. It's like wondering if Nalia ever learnt to play an intstrument - I doubt Bioware thought about it (or even implied it in the slightest), but it's an (objectively) interesting point of discussion.

Well, perhaps Aerie could teach her the violin...

[Deva]

No, he's not. He's an unemployed wanna-be actor who calls everyone bird names. And he has grey hair. He is probably roughly of humanish age, though with the potential to live longer depending on what kind of freak his demonic parent was.

Yes, he is. At least, in my mind. And his hair is BLUE, goddamnit! I always thought he had a strangely ageless quality. He goes on about all the strange things he's seen, and seems quite secure in himself - something that usually comes with age. Also, he's not unemployed until he gets kidnapped. So I'd say mid 20's in human terms, though he's probably older than that.

And some people like the bird names.

People can act older without being older, y'know. And she doesn't strike me as particularly older, just bossy, as even kids can be. Also, to someone who's young, an "old friend" might only mean someone they've known for a few years, if that. Half the people I meet think I'm half my age, and the other half twice it. Perception != reality.

This is true, but then I think the age gap must be considerable for her character, her back story to make any sense. I don't know why people seem to have such a chip on the shoulder about her age.

You say a young person - but I'm talking about Gorion. I don't think Gorion would trust a woman he had known for 'just a couple of years' to act as a parental figure to the most precious person in his stead. I think he must have known her for a decade odd before <CHARNAME> was even a figure in his life, since a bunch of people maintain that Gorion basically stopped adventuring once <CHARNAME> came along.

And <CHARNAME> has never met Jaheira before s/he is 20, so she didn't meet Gorion during his time at Candlekeep. But he has virtually never left Candlekeep while raising <CHARNAME>.

Hence, Gorion must've known Jaheira for around 20 years, and she must have been reasonably mature for that time, or he would not trust her and Khalid to basically behave as parents to <CHARNAME>. Jaheira explains that Gorion expressed that this was his wish when you first meet her in the Friendly Arm.

Not sure which alternate portrait you're using for him, but... "pale, ginger?" He could pass for half Arab, I'm sure (I think his human half is Calishite and elven parent from nearby Tethyr or something).

I'm not using any alternate - you're right about the portrait, that just makes it all he more confusing. It was his sprite that made me 'huh', a creamy skinned ginger guy.

Edited by Deva, 22 August 2008 - 05:09 AM.

[Miloch]

And his hair is BLUE, goddamnit!

Looks pretty grey in his portrait. Blue-grey, maybe, but more grey than blue...

This is true, but then I think the age gap must be considerable for her character, her back story to make any sense. I don't know why people seem to have such a chip on the shoulder about her age.

Well, I'd just rather take any references to her age at face value, if it's even remotely plausible, than try to write some revisionist history changing it. Sure, it might make more sense for her to be older, but if it says somewhere she's in her 20s, well, so be it. Personally, I'd see my PC as older too, but he isn't - not without changing the whole backstory of the game.

I don't think Gorion would trust a woman he had known for 'just a couple of years' to act as a parental figure to the most precious person in his stead.

I'm willing to believe Gorion knew their parents somehow. (Heh, maybe he's even father to one or the other and avoids contact to "protect" them? Though perhaps that's pretty unlikely.) Or better yet, maybe the "old friends" reference is just a byword for the Harpers, and he has it on good authority through clandestine contacts with that organisation (which he must also be a part of) that they're reliable.

This is from Jaheira's profile in Dragon #262 (which I guess is about as close to "canon" as you can get apart from the games themselves):

Jaheira was born in the Year of the Bright Blade (1347 DR) to the second son of a noble family and an elf diplomat. Only weeks old, Jaheira was taken from the city of Zazesspur by a servant girl amid a riot. On the orders of Jaheira's mother, the servant brought the infant north to the edge of the forest of Tethir. The servant died at the edge of the pass, and a group of elves found the infant Jaheira barely clinging to life. The elves brought Jaheira back to Suldanessellar and the care of her mother's family. Jaheira was raised thinking her aunt Faenyar was her mother.

It goes on to say she was curious about her human father and searched for him (at the age of 15) but never found out who he was. She joins the Harpers and meets Khalid through that organisation, eventually falling in love while on a mission together. An any rate, I believe this makes her 21 at the start of Baldur's Gate (1368).

I'm not using any alternate - you're right about the portrait, that just makes it all he more confusing. It was his sprite that made me 'huh', a creamy skinned ginger guy.

Yeah, Bioware messed up quite a bit matching avatar colours to portraits (Haer'dalis with "dark blue" hair is another example). You're right - Khalid's avatar has "auburn" hair and "carnation pink" skin - same as Alora's avatar (something I've fixed in a "Match NPC Avatars to Portraits" component, probably for the next Mix-Mod).