26 replies to this topic

[scient]

Looking over the list that platter originally compliled of content that isn't included, I had a few questions about possible additions.

Spell: Howl of Pandemonium -> from the effects / name it looks like this would be a spell exclusive to Xaositects? Is it possible to only allow this spell to be used if your part of this faction? At the moment anyone can use it the way its setup. Last time I played, I was using platter's fixpack / restoration and I don't remember ever coming across it.

There are also few other items, some look pretty standard stuff but others might have been removed quest items. For example, I believe the only time I ever ran into people from Indep faction was in Lowerward market area (father/son) which could have given that earring. Perhaps for items there are no obvious links to a quest, they could be added in as rare loot drop in certain areas where it would be approperiate to find items. Shame to have them just sitting there not being used.

WHISTLE OF WARDING
LOWER PLANES VERMIN ARMOR
"LAST RESORT"
SPIKED GAUNTLETS
GAUNTLETS OF RENDING
DEVIL'S DUE
SWORD OF WH'YNN
CHAOS FEATHER
FIEND'S TEETH
INDEP EARRING (another faction specific item)

These items look pretty balanced, the "THE EVISCERATOR" shouldn't be added for obvious reasons. Only other armor/weap (besides Eye of Venca / Pendant of Yemeth) are the Winged Bolts which are also pointless because no ranged weapons.

I'm not sure if its possible to do a check whether TNO is part of a certain faction or not, perhaps thats why those particular items were dropped. It might get tricky if say you joined faction, added spell then left. Same thing with faction/location specific tattoo's being dropped which leads me to believe it might not be possible.


http://www.sorcerers...r/crap/unim.htm

[Qwinn]

Winged Bolts aren't useless... they are restored in the Fixpack, and Nordom can make and use them.

Most factions can be checked for, but the one exception is "Usable only by Xaositect". This is somehow bugged in the engine, such that belonging to -any- faction makes you unable to use an item that is "Usable only by Xaositect", and that includes the faction "No Faction", heh. So basically, you can't use the "Usable only by Xaositect" flag at all. Usable only by Godsmen, Dustmen, etc. work fine.

The way this is dealt with in my Fixpack for the Rat Charm is that it's been made into Usable only by Chaotic Alignment. I don't think that could be done for a spell though... might be able to prevent the player from -learning- the spell unless they're chaotic, but you could then get lawful enough for Vhailor to approve and I couldn't stop you from using it.

Annah is an Indep, for the record.

As for the rest: The following are already restored by UB:

Restored Cheat Items Component has the Sword of Whynn.

Restored Items Component already restores Chaos Feather, Devil's Due, and Fiend's Teeth.

That leaves, from your list:

WHISTLE OF WARDING
LOWER PLANES VERMIN ARMOR
"LAST RESORT"
SPIKED GAUNTLETS
GAUNTLETS OF RENDING
INDEP EARRING (another faction specific item)

I'm not in a major hurry to get those in, as most of them would just be vendor trash. I don't think it'd be right to just restore the Indep Earring without some sort of content mod to go with it (though, unfortunately, it is not possible to add new joinable factions into the game, several aspects of a faction being joinable are hardwired for the existing five in the engine. I mean, you could certainly -mimic- joining a faction, and introduce whatever dialogue you wanted, but I don't think you could get the symbol on the character screen or have valid "Usable only by" flags working.

For right now I'm pretty much just looking for a good reason or way to bring them into the game other than just dumping them into a chest somewhere. Until then, if someone is inspired to do a content mod that wants to use one of them, go for it.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 08 August 2008 - 07:07 AM.

[scient]

Winged Bolts aren't useless... they are restored in the Fixpack, and Nordom can make and use them.

Good to know, I ended up missing having Nordom in my party first play through. Definately something to look forward to.

Most factions can be checked for, but the one exception is "Usable only by Xaositect". This is somehow bugged in the engine, such that belonging to -any- faction makes you unable to use an item that is "Usable only by Xaositect", and that includes the faction "No Faction", heh. So basically, you can't use the "Usable only by Xaositect" flag at all. Usable only by Godsmen, Dustmen, etc. work fine.

The way this is dealt with in my Fixpack for the Rat Charm is that it's been made into Usable only by Chaotic Alignment. I don't think that could be done for a spell though... might be able to prevent the player from -learning- the spell unless they're chaotic, but you could then get lawful enough for Vhailor to approve and I couldn't stop you from using it.

Well that kind of sucks. Just to confirm, if there is say an item that only Godsmen can use. You equip it, then later on leave the faction. Will the item unequip or the next time you remove it will it be unusable? Also for example, say if you're part of Dustmen/Godsmen. There is no issue with using items to those particular factions at the same time? If these don't work, meaning the engine is fundementally broken when it comes to factions I don't think there is much I can do. However, if it just seems to be a bug regarding Xaositect and if corrected items would behave normally, I might be able to sort it. I guess I need to read up a bit how IE works, but might it be possible to patch the exe/game files to correct this behavior? Again, I'll do some looking into it myself. I have a little bit of code reversing under my belt.

Even if bug was corrected, I'm not sure if it would be possible to disable the spell once memorize. Perhaps there is a way to prevent a spell from becoming available after resting, even if you have it set as one of the spells you are using? That way, even if someone becomes lawful/leaves Xaositect after using the spell once they won't get it again if they're not part of Xaositect faction/chaos alignment.

It's a shame not to be able to use it, kind of a cool spell / animation.

Restored Cheat Items Component has the Sword of Whynn.

Ah it was late last night, I must of missed the descript about it being cheating weap. I just skimmed over stats and looked like pretty standard weap.

WHISTLE OF WARDING
LOWER PLANES VERMIN ARMOR
"LAST RESORT"
SPIKED GAUNTLETS
GAUNTLETS OF RENDING
INDEP EARRING (another faction specific item)

I'm not in a major hurry to get those in, as most of them would just be vendor trash. I don't think it'd be right to just restore the Indep Earring without some sort of content mod to go with it (though, unfortunately, it is not possible to add new joinable factions into the game, several aspects of a faction being joinable are hardwired for the existing five in the engine. I mean, you could certainly -mimic- joining a faction, and introduce whatever dialogue you wanted, but I don't think you could get the symbol on the character screen or have valid "Usable only by" flags working.

Well, that really narrows down the list. And I agree, of the items left perhaps saving "Last Resort" and "Lower Planes Vermin Armor" (I forget what kind of stuff Annah gets) rest is vender trash. I'll definately have to keep an eye out for Fiend's Teeth tho.

I agree about Indep Earring, it was most likely going to be part of another joinable faction/quest that was cut. I think it would be much harder trying to add another faction that TNO could join than say just fixing bug like with Xaositects. It said Oerth was creator of item but I don't believe he is a npc. It would be kind of pointless to just randomly add it in if only Annah could use it. The two indep that I remember were Lazlo / Anze inside Lower Ward.

That brings me to a bit of an off topic question, are there any models for npcs that are children or is it just adult male/female? Lazlo is suppose to be a kid but he looks no different than adult males. I can't remember if it was BG that had kids or PST. Not a big deal tho.

For right now I'm pretty much just looking for a good reason or way to bring them into the game other than just dumping them into a chest somewhere. Until then, if someone is inspired to do a content mod that wants to use one of them, go for it.

Ya, there is definately that possiblity. There are a number of unused item models to work with if someone was inclined.

One last thing, have any of the "unused" tattoo's been re-added?

TATTOO OF THE UNBROKEN CIRCLE
ANARCHIST TATTOO

I believe the restoration pack added Unbroken Circle back in for Zerthimon quest. "Anarchist Tattoo" seems to be pointless because there is already "Tattoo of the Anarchists". "Anarchist Tattoo" must of just been a working version of later and is also broken (don't have to be part of Anarchists to use it). I'm also curious how faction related tattoo's are handled if you leave said faction after equiping tattoo.

Not sure if this one was added in or what triggers it:
TATTOO OF THE DECEIVER

These three look like they might have been removed due to limitations with engine. I tried to test if the Baator tattoo would be usable when in Baator, but it wasn't.

NEGATIVE MATERIAL PLANE SPELL KEY (area specific)
CARCERI SPELL KEY (area specific)
BAATOR SPELL KEY (area specific)

Also II470.BAM looks like an unimplemented Xaositect specific tattoo.

While doing some testing, I added in "THE EVISCERATOR" just for fun. The item's name is listed as "Dagger", not sure if thats typo or meant to be ironic.

Edited by scient, 08 August 2008 - 10:03 AM.

[InTourette]

Qwinn, do you have some kind of list of which is unimplemented yet? platters list is old and maybe you have something like this so that future modders can look into it and know what they should implement and what not
I don´t want to bug you, if you don´t have such a list, then I am looking through the files by myself

[scient]

Spellkeys but this will require an engine patch. There is actually existing code for each of those planes that looks for the spellkey tattoos but beyond that nothing really happens.

There are also a few higher end mage spells, like Howl of Pandamonium and Elysium's Fires that aren't in the game. Qwinn has discussed some methods of adding them into the game but nothing has been completely hashed out yet. Howl will require a patch to remove it from your spellbook if you leave the Xaositect faction. I've thought up a method to purge it from spellbook/memorized spells but I haven't put it all together to test.

These items I believe are still unused:
WHISTLE OF WARDING
LOWER PLANES VERMIN ARMOR
"LAST RESORT"
SPIKED GAUNTLETS
GAUNTLETS OF RENDING
INDEP EARRING (another faction specific item)

I can see "Last Resort" being useful since it has +3 to enchanted damage, Whistle might be useful for non-mage classes against horror casting NPC's, and Indep Earring looks like an ok Annah only item. I'd have to make sure the "immunity to confusion" actually works because that might be a reason it was cut. How to add these in? No clue. That's more Qwinn's dept.

[InTourette]

thanks for the fast reply
About the indep earring.. wouldnt it be possible, if the indeps become a faction, but only with Annah in your party you have access to their quests - an their earring. Same would be possible with mercykillers and vhailor...
Is there actually an Indep besides Annah in pst?
To the spell- maybe the xaositects could give tno a certain item (usable only with chaotic alignment) with which you can cast that spell. That has to be created but I thing its easier than such a patch.. maybe
I know its actually part of the topic, but which dialogue is unimplemented yet?

[BLAH]

and Indep Earring looks like an ok Annah only item. I'd have to make sure the "immunity to confusion" actually works because that might be a reason it was cut. How to add these in? No clue. That's more Qwinn's dept.

Is there even a monster that casts confusion in the game. It's quite likely you'd be immune to it the way you were immune to terror, too

[Qwinn]

I'm glad this got bumped when it did, right after I finished Curst, or I might have not remembered that Murk, the merchant I restore in the Restored Items component to get the Fiend's Teeth back in, also has the Spiked Gauntlets and the Gauntlets of Rending. I didn't realize those items didn't exist anywhere else, so I'll add those to the description of the Restored Items component in the readme.

So, all that really leaves is:

WHISTLE OF WARDING
LOWER PLANES VERMIN ARMOR
"LAST RESORT"
INDEP EARRING (another faction specific item)

Whistle of Warding lets you create the Antimagic Shell, which is actually a spell that is not available in the game to the PC. However, TO uses it during your fight with him (though I've never noticed not being able to cast spells or have them land on him, so maybe it's not working either, and if that's the case, making it work would probably make that fight a more reasonable challenge than it is, it is pretty easy as is considering it's The Last Fight Of The Game).

After some research, I realized that most of the other spells that "don't exist in game" actually do, they're just only available to and used by your opponents. Which is fair enough, and I can easily see that being a design decision, not something that was accidentally left out of the game.

As for the question of whether there are any other unused dialogues out there... I -thought- with this next version's Restored Lower Ward Encounters, I had restored them all, then I found the one last night for the abishai in Curst Underground. So, let me put it this way. I -think- every dialogue out there has been restored by either the Fixpack or UB now, I really do, but there's still always a possibility of someone finding something I haven't yet.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 17 December 2008 - 10:34 AM.

[scient]

The Xaositects usability flag has already been fixed so you could use it on the spell. Actually, it was the first one I did kind of my gate way into PST bug fixing.

Now, why wouldn't this work? If you have it memorized in spellbook after leaving the faction, you can still use it. Maybe there is an argument for keeping it. Another issue that has to be fixed is how it handles argo. You can cast it in Smoldering Corpse and basically make everyone go crazy. However, unlike confusion none of the NPC's become hostile to you. This may just be a modification of spell file rather then engine.

There actually is no joinable "indep" faction like all the others. I recall there were some of them inside market area of Lower Ward. The real problem is there is no basis to add the item in.

You're right about lack of confusion casting NPC's, I didn't think of that. There is only one, Hezobol, so ya that part of the item is pretty pointless.

edit: Anti-Magic spell does work. I've used it a couple of times. It prevents ALL spells even healing and buffs if I recall correctly. I was actually going to use it as a starting point to resolve spellkeys.

Edited by scient, 17 December 2008 - 10:40 AM.

[InTourette]

I'm glad this got bumped when it did, right after I finished Curst, or I might have not remembered that Murk, the merchant I restore in the Restored Items component to get the Fiend's Teeth back in, also has the Spiked Gauntlets and the Gauntlets of Rending. I didn't realize those items didn't exist anywhere else, so I'll add those to the description of the Restored Items component in the readme.

So, all that really leaves is:

WHISTLE OF WARDING
LOWER PLANES VERMIN ARMOR
"LAST RESORT"
INDEP EARRING (another faction specific item)

Whistle of Warding lets you create the Antimagic Shell, which is actually a spell that is not available in the game to the PC. However, TO uses it during your fight with him (though I've never noticed not being able to cast spells or have them land on him, so maybe it's not working either, and if that's the case, making it work would probably make that fight a more reasonable challenge than it is, it is pretty easy as is considering it's The Last Fight Of The Game).

After some research, I realized that most of the other spells that "don't exist in game" actually do, they're just only available to and used by your opponents. Which is fair enough, and I can easily see that being a design decision, not something that was accidentally left out of the game.

As for the question of whether there are any other unused dialogues out there... I -thought- with this next version's Restored Lower Ward Encounters, I had restored them all, then I found the one last night for the abishai in Curst Underground. So, let me put it this way. I -think- every dialogue out there has been restored by either the Fixpack or UB now, I really do, but there's still always a possibility of someone finding something I haven't yet.

Qwinn

Wow just a few things left. These + some tattoos and animations/images. Not to forget the Xixi thing
Really great. Keep up the good work!!

scient: with the indepsthing I meant to make something up and include this earring. Its not part of UB I know, but otherwise would this kidnapping thing for example also not fit into UB. The basis is Annah
Good to hear that you fixed the flagthing. I didnt know

[Ephyon]

I've cheated the Vermin Armor into my inventory before to check it out and it never seemed to be anything truly special other than having a one-point better AC than the other two. Couldn't it be tossed in with the rest of Gonclave's stuff, or maybe someone in Curst like Tainted Barse or Crumplepunch (if only because of the "lower planes" thing)?

As for Anti-Magic shield... really, does one more spell actually make any sort of difference as to the already ungodly firepower a high-level mage can dish out? It's Lv 6, a pretty barren page in the book already, and it is the sort of thing that comes in handy only when using your head as opposed to spamming Lightning Storm, which would probably get rid of whatever you're after a lot more effectively than disabling spellcasting. It just seems like it'd be the kind of thing that would be hardly noticeable one way or the other if you tossed it in with any of the spell-sellers like Quell.

The only spell I could see cause any sort of change would be Rune of Torment, which is mostly useless as it stands but I couldn't imagine any way to reintroduce it that would make any sort of sense.

Edited by Ephyon, 17 December 2008 - 02:47 PM.

[Daulmakan]

As for Anti-Magic shield... really, does one more spell actually make any sort of difference as to the already ungodly firepower a high-level mage can dish out?

Actually, for a common mage, it's like a suicide spell, since it prevents the casting of magic from within or outside the sphere. For monsters with spellcasting abilities and immunity to nonmagical weapons, it's like the ultimate buff spell, since it imposes a big limit on what means can hurt them. Note that this is in P&P, don't know exactly how the ingame version works, or if it's any similar at all.

[Ephyon]

It's kinda-sorta-maybe useful for Dak'kon since he can use it in fights against enemies like Ravel or TO, although stuff like Zerhimon's Focus and Balance in All Things are way more effective. It does seems completely useless for a Mage TNO, especially coupled with the THACO fix which prevents you from being a fighter-mage. It's only real use for him would be through the Whistle.

It just seems like the kind of thing nobody would miss if it were left out, but nobody would mind if it were thrown in.

[Daulmakan]

It's kinda-sorta-maybe useful for Dak'kon since he can use it in fights against enemies like Ravel or TO, although stuff like Zerhimon's Focus and Balance in All Things are way more effective. It does seems completely useless for a Mage TNO, especially coupled with the THACO fix which prevents you from being a fighter-mage. It's only real use for him would be through the Whistle.

I should have added, it disrupts all magic inside the sphere, including magic items (artifacts are excluded, which the karach blade might or might not qualify as one). So his sword could be rendered useless, as his spells, and he'd have no real means to hurt enemies.

[Ephyon]

You've... never actually seen the spell, have you? D&D manuals have as much influence on PS:T's magic system as logic has on BG2's timeline, that's kind of obvious if you've played the game at least once. It's useless to get so attached to it in a game that takes it as a list of suggestions rather than rules. The Karach blade can't be dispelled, it's treated as a stable weapon, it's just silly to even consider it.

Edited by Ephyon, 17 December 2008 - 05:12 PM.

[Daulmakan]

You've... never actually seen the spell, have you? D&D manuals have as much influence on PS:T's magic system as logic has on BG2's timeline, that's kind of obvious if you've played the game at least once. It's useless to get so attached to it in a game that takes it as a list of suggestions rather than rules. The Karach blade can't be dispelled, it's treated as a stable weapon, it's just silly to even consider it.

Did you read my previous post? Here:

don't know exactly how the ingame version works, or if it's any similar at all.

AD&D 2E is the biggest single source for PS:T rules you can find anywhere. Failing to comply with all of them does nothing to change this fact. If this precise spell is the case or not, I don't know, as I've already said. In the abscence of everything else, taking the P&P version into consideration is a sensible thing to do, even if the spells don't end up matching.

'Stable weapon' is a term that means nothing. Considering it an artifact, due to what Dak'kon and the Practical Incarnation say is valid and well within the parameters of the rules in which PS:T is based. Thinking it's not, possibly depending on its several versions, is also valid.

[Ephyon]

In the abscence of everything else, taking the P&P version into consideration is a sensible thing to do

Yes, but this lack of evidence isn't because the information available is lacking, it's all there, it's you who's discussing something you have never seen.

'Stable weapon' is a term that means nothing. Considering it an artifact, due to what Dak'kon and the Practical Incarnation say is valid and well within the parameters of the rules in which PS:T is based. Thinking it's not, possibly depending on its several versions, is also valid.

What you're talking about is a completely new kind of item that doesn't even exist in the game and effects that just don't exist either.

The rules of D&D are overruled by the game's, and the game quite outright flips the book the finger on a good number of occasions. You're talking about what the spell MIGHT do if the game MIGHT have had a completely different set of rules and the Karach blade MIGHT have been a wholly different class of item. It... isn't. The shield just neutralizes spells. I'm not sure why on earth anyone would even think of thinking of this any further than that.

[Daulmakan]

Precisely, I'm talking about what it MIGHT do because I haven't seen it, since it's not viewable in the game (unless you peruse it with IE or some such).

If you have the description handy, please do post it, I'll glady stop conjecturing then.


EDIT Nevermind, I just noticed scient's edit in one of his posts.

Edited by Daulmakan, 17 December 2008 - 06:25 PM.

[Shambelle]

Spell: Howl of Pandemonium -> from the effects / name it looks like this would be a spell exclusive to Xaositects? Is it possible to only allow this spell to be used if your part of this faction? At the moment anyone can use it the way its setup. Last time I played, I was using platter's fixpack / restoration and I don't remember ever coming across it.

In fact, this spell is associated with the Bleak Cabal (cf. the Factol Manifesto) and has nothing to do with the Xaositects.
The Xaositects are chaotic.
The Bleakers are mad.

Edited by Shambelle, 25 December 2008 - 04:46 PM.

[Qwinn]

Really? Surprising. Xaositects certainly -seem- mad, and they howl a lot, which seems in keeping with the spell's nature. But I'll defer to your apparent greater knowledge of Sigilian lore. (that's one faction I don't recall ever having heard of)

Qwinn