18 replies to this topic

[Lemernis]

I seek advice on what type of PC to make, given a particular approach I have in mind.

For my next PC I'm feeling a dualwielder who uses a combo of long swords, shorts swords, and eventually katanas. And who uses magic, but with a very specific approach (explained below).
Right now the short list of possible character builds is

Blade
dual class Fighter 7/ Cleric
dual class Fighter 7/ Mage (Specialist?)
multi Kensai-Cleric
multi Kensai-Mage

With the multi classes I would cheat them via Shadowkeeper. Upon character creation I'd make the PC a Fighter-Mage or -Cleric with *** in Two Weapon Style and * in Long Swords. Then I would change the kit flag to Kensai.

Here a cleric will be able to use swords via the Ashes of Embers component that allows clerics to use bladed weapons.

Okay, this is the approach I want to try:

I will have at least one mage and one cleric in the back row casting the usual arsenal of spells. So mainly I want the PC to be a meleer. His magic will therefore be 'up close and personal'. My goal is to see how effectively I can use touch spells and other spells that target a single creature. The idea is the PC would use one or two of those types spells to significantly impair (or hopefully debilitate) the opponent before he goes in with his swords.

So for example, a Blade, Fighter-Mage or Kensai-Mage would use

from a distance

Blind, Hold Person, Dire Charm, Slow, Domination, Power Word: Stun, Power Word: Blind, Energy Drain

up close

Ghoul Touch, Contagion, and Vampiric Touch


And for a Fighter-Cleric or Kensai-Cleric

from a distance

Command Word: Die, Doom, Charm Person or Mammal, Hold Person, Hold Animal, Summon Insects, Confusion

up close

Cause Serious and Critical Wounds, Poison, Slay Living, Dolorous Decay, Harm


I could also make a Fighter-Druid or Kensai-Druid. (I have the Ashes of Embers component installed that lets priests use bladed weapons.)

I'm not sure how these different types of builds would stack up against one another. I've never used a Kensai, for example.

What are your recommendations?


Misc. Info

This is for a BGT game. Many mods installed for this game, among them SCS and SCS II. It's going to be particularly tough in BG2, I think. The party:

BG1

PC
Imoen - Thief
Gavin (Dawnbringer of Lathander)
Xan (Enchanter)
Mur'Neth (Ghaunadan) for while; replace fairly soon with Coran - Swashbuckler (available in chapter 2)
Ajantis - Cavalier


BG2

PC
Jan; later Imoen (Thief)
Viconia (Cleric)
Ariena (Pit Fighter)

and two from among the following:

Kelsey (Sorcerer)
Xan (Enchanter)
Kido (Jester)

(still deciding which of those last three not to use).

Edited by Lemernis, 30 July 2008 - 08:42 AM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Kensai-Cleric

Don't take this, his AC is horrible... Berserker-Cleric is better. And remember to make him a Berserker and then make him multiclass, as that way you gain the initial kit skills. Another good combo is Kensai-Thief at high levels, but you are starting at Candlekeep, so that's a no.

And the weapons, why not Axe and Warhammer. That's both slash and crushing damage, and 25 in Str(Crom Faeyr) is a nice when you use the Axe of the Unyielding +5. In BGI part, the +2 axes and hammer are easy to find.

[Lemernis]

Ah, for weapons I just completed a game with a cleric-ranger who dual-wielded using hammers and other sundry weapons. Had him using Crom Faeyr, sure enough. I felt like I'll need a change of pace from hammers for this game.

I've been meaning to try to combine various weapons for interesting combined magical effects. Swords seemed like they offer the most variety. Celestial Fury and the Short Sword of Mask seems like it might be fun. Both esily available weapons (I'm making Watcher's Keep available from the start).

But I could try any number of inventive combinations. I've been thinking that the Sleeper (morningstar) and Pixie Prick (dagger) might be interesting--once THACO is low enough. Knock opponents out and then use those touch spells.

Just looking for something relatively novel.

At this point I think I'm leaning toward Fighter-Specialist Mage (Conjurer?) or Berserker-Cleric. For me it's a question of whether it's actually fun or not to use the spells in the way I've described above... I.e., I'm wondering will the mage spells be more fun, or the cleric spells...

What about dual class versus multi-class?

[DeusEx]

I have played fighter/mage multi-class in my last game and it can get difficult especially since you progress slower than single-class or dual-class characters and as spells go I mainly used the ones cast from distance to weaken and immobilize enemies and then used long swords in close combat (summoning creatures can also be of help). Berserker-Cleric sounds good enough but I personally prefer mage spells.

[Lemernis]

I just played a clerric-ranger and he leveled at what felt like a painfully slow rate. Although in practice he still had enough cleric spells for me to enjoy the character. And he was easily the most powerful member of the party, well surpassing the other two tanks (Korgan and Anomen) in percentage of kills.

In the balance I think I can live with the slow leveling in order to get a continuing progression of skills as a warrior. Versus shifting the progression of skills over to mage via dual classing. Again, this is not so much a wizard character. He's mainly a fighter who quickly debilitates the enemy with a choice spell or two on an individual target then moves in for melee. Also, if I multiclass I don't have to wait to get the original class skills back (which I don't care for at all). And since he's dual-wielding, grandmastery isn't in the picture anyway.

I just remembered that if I'm going to have a mage using his spells in combat then I can't have him armored, right? So I'm thinking that it's then best to make him a Kensai-Mage, for sure.

So the questions now for me are

1) how does a Blade compare with a Kensai-Mage? Will a Blade be hardier in battle? If so, on the other hand will a Blade still have enough spell slots for me to enjoy the combat approach I've outlined?

2) how do the above two options compare with a Bersrker-Cleric? The cleric can provide a slight bit of extra healing to the party, so that's a bonus. (I want to keep most of the slots open for combat spells, though.) But the huge advantage of the Bersrker-Cleric is he can cast spells in armor.

I'm just not sure if I will enjoy the cleric spells as much as mage spells for this combat approach... Here are the spells again that I want to utilize for reference sake:

Kensai-Mage or Blade

Blind, Hold Person, Ghoul Touch, Vampiric Touch, Dire Charm, Slow, Domination, Contagion, Power Word: Stun, Power Word: Blind, Energy Drain

Berserker-Cleric

Command Word: Die, Doom, Charm Person or Mammal, Hold Person, Hold Animal, Summon Insects, Confusion, Cause Serious Wounds, Mental Domination, Poison, Cause Critical Wounds, Slay Living, Dolorous Decay, Harm

Come to think of it I can also do Berserker-Druid and thereby get Iron Skins. But otherwise, for the types of spells I'm looking to use here, I'm not sure if the druid is a particularly good choice.

***

Edit: Blade is out. Not enough spell slots for what I want to try to do here.

Edited by Lemernis, 31 July 2008 - 05:34 AM.

[Lemernis]

I've never played a Kensai... how in the world do you get a Kensai's AC low enough to avoid incuring massive damage? No armor, no bracers or gauntlets... how do you keep this character from constantly getting seriously injured?

[Dark-Mage]

I've never played a Kensai... how in the world do you get a Kensai's AC low enough to avoid incuring massive damage? No armor, no bracers or gauntlets... how do you keep this character from constantly getting seriously injured?

Never played one myself but don't they got an AC bonus that improves with their level?

[Lemernis]

It looks like it does, but it's still darn high for a meleer. For the build I started with a Kensai, then changed to multi-class Fighter-Mage via Shadowkeeper. By Kenasi level 7, the base AC is 5. Hopefully with spell buffs and a ring of protection I can get it low enough throughout the game.

I'm really not seeing why anyone would ever want to play a Kensai... Except here, as I say, for this type of character he can't wear armor anyway (at least if he wants to cast spells). I'm wondering if a straight Fighter-Mage actually ends up with lower AC even without any armor. I wouldn't think so, because otherwise what benefit is there to a Kensai?

[Jarno Mikkola]

I'm wondering if a straight Fighter-Mage actually ends up with lower AC even without any armor. I wouldn't think so, because otherwise what benefit is there to a Kensai?

Quite possibly, but did you forgot to put his Dex to 18, as that way his AC is 4 at level 1. Other benefits are the very high damage dealt per round. As Kensai has better Thac0 and damage bonus(+1/3 levels to both, just from the kit) than anyone else.

[Scipio]

I'm wondering if a straight Fighter-Mage actually ends up with lower AC even without any armor. I wouldn't think so, because otherwise what benefit is there to a Kensai?

Quite possibly, but did you forgot to put his Dex to 18, as that way his AC is 4 at level 1. Other benefits are the very high damage dealt per round. As Kensai has better Thac0 and damage bonus(+1/3 levels to both, just from the kit) than anyone else.

Hey, Jarno, since I'm also thinking of generating a character from scratch for a similar prolonged adventure, and you seem to know much more about these things than I do -- can Shadow Keeper or Level 1 NPCs create a fighter-sorcerer? Or would a Kensai who can hurl out seven Horrible Wiltings be way overpowered?

BTW I have found that your AC isn't THAT critical in a melee if you have a tank or two to absorb the initial attacks and attract the enemy's attention. Even Aerie with AC -5 and a good mace or hammer is pretty effective as a back-up in melees. The bad guys seem to go for the first people who attack them even if Aerie is pounding them while they try to get at Keldorn or Minsc.

[Jarno Mikkola]

can Shadow Keeper or Level 1 NPCs create a fighter-sorcerer? Or would a Kensai who can hurl out seven Horrible Wiltings be way overpowered?

That would be lovely, but nope. And considering the OP factor, it's good that one can't. But to give food for though, you can actually make a Kensai who then duals to a mage, and when he regains his fighter levels, switch his class to a Sorcerer, as then he has the wizards spell selection and his bonus spells in Sorcerers spellbook and the Kensai's AC, to-hit and damage bonuses(with sorcerers Thac0 table), and he is still basically a Sorcerer.

Never played one, except to test that it works.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 31 July 2008 - 09:19 AM.

[Soulfire]

Or you could use Level 1 NPCs to make someone (Say, Imoen) into a Kensai/Mage/Thief... or a Fighter/Mage/Swashbuckler... or a Fighter/Wild Mage/Thief.

[Lemernis]

I'm wondering if a straight Fighter-Mage actually ends up with lower AC even without any armor. I wouldn't think so, because otherwise what benefit is there to a Kensai?

Quite possibly, but did you forgot to put his Dex to 18, as that way his AC is 4 at level 1. Other benefits are the very high damage dealt per round. As Kensai has better Thac0 and damage bonus(+1/3 levels to both, just from the kit) than anyone else.

I did have Dex at 17, actually. So I just retested it with Dex 18 to get that one extra point AC reduction.

After messing around a bit with the CLUA Console and leveling up the different classes I've been mulling over, I'm now very satisfied with Kensai-Mage's hardiness. Right from the getgo the first level spell Shield gets AC to -2, which is the same as a Berserker-Cleric wearing full plate plus a RoP +1. By the time the Kensai-Mage gets Ghost Armor at level 5 he'll get his AC down to -4. Then after Draw Upon Holy Might it's -5. By comparison, a Berserker-Cleric of the same level can only buff to -3 AC.

Also, the Kenasi-Mage should dole out more damage. Alhough in my test THACO was the same for both at level 5.

Anyway, this is fine. Kensai-Mage it is.

Thanks for the pointers and feedback! It takes me about 3-4 months to complete the entire saga, so I want to make sure I really like the PC character design before I start.


***

Oh, also--I get a kick out of the Kensai-Mage's ferret familiar! I'll definitely use him to pickpocket, find traps, and whatnot.

Edited by Lemernis, 31 July 2008 - 09:20 AM.

[Lemernis]

BTW I have found that your AC isn't THAT critical in a melee if you have a tank or two to absorb the initial attacks and attract the enemy's attention. Even Aerie with AC -5 and a good mace or hammer is pretty effective as a back-up in melees. The bad guys seem to go for the first people who attack them even if Aerie is pounding them while they try to get at Keldorn or Minsc.

At least in this case, I'll be playing with SCS and SCS II installed. So mages will be selective, targeting weak characters. And the overall AI is greatly improved even for the enemy's frontline soldier types. But it's still true that even then, with careful placement of your party you can still avoid a lot of damage as long as your tanks are leading the charge. I've used mages before who use a quarterstaff and touch spells (Ghoul Touch), and it is surprising how little damage they sustain in an unmodded game. Even with SCS installed I played such a Wild Mage once and he still managed to avoid harm most of the time. I guess the Bioware's implementation of the quarterstaff's greater reach does work. Just steer clear of halberd and spear wielding enemies.

[Lemernis]

Question about the Kensai class:

The manual says a Kensai delivers the most damage with his weapon of any class in the game with "high combat bonuses." And when using Kai the Kensai delivers "full damage" for the "next few attacks." But exactly what bonuses does the Kai Shot special ability confer? I.e., what is meant by "full damage"? And how long does it last (I remember reading somewhere that it's 3 rounds, but I now can't find where).

[Jarno Mikkola]

Question about the Kensai class:

From here:

- Kai ability (10 second attack at maximum damage) once per day for every 4 levels

... the maximum damage is the maximum dice damage, so daggers(1d4) it's 4+Str modifiers+weapon enchantment bonus, with two handed sword it's 10+Str modifiers +weapon enchantment bonus etc.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 01 August 2008 - 03:19 AM.

[Scipio]

Anyone about to play BGT should first get the newest version.

[Lemernis]

Question about the Kensai class:

From here:

- Kai ability (10 second attack at maximum damage) once per day for every 4 levels

... the maximum damage is the maximum dice damage, so daggers(1d4) it's 4+Str modifiers+weapon enchantment bonus, with two handed sword it's 10+Str modifiers +weapon enchantment bonus etc.

Ah, thanks! I reckon the critical hits must be pretty impressive.

Edited by Lemernis, 01 August 2008 - 04:22 AM.

[Discordia]

It looks like it does, but it's still darn high for a meleer. For the build I started with a Kensai, then changed to multi-class Fighter-Mage via Shadowkeeper. By Kenasi level 7, the base AC is 5. Hopefully with spell buffs and a ring of protection I can get it low enough throughout the game.

I'm really not seeing why anyone would ever want to play a Kensai... Except here, as I say, for this type of character he can't wear armor anyway (at least if he wants to cast spells). I'm wondering if a straight Fighter-Mage actually ends up with lower AC even without any armor. I wouldn't think so, because otherwise what benefit is there to a Kensai?

you can still cast spirit armor/bark skin on him which usually makes (combined with a 18 dex which is a must for a kensai and one or two protective rings and amulets - i play with the no restrictions tweak) his AC ranging from -5 to -15 (high lvl barkskin)...which is pretty decent (and only topped by jaheira the rhythm fighter/druid...lvl1 npc + darkest day kits)

Ah, thanks! I reckon the critical hits must be pretty impressive.

it often happens that i kill a mage with a single blow before they could cast a protection spell...
anyway, around 60 to 70

kai is especially impressive if combined with whirlwind or even better, valiants sword and critical hits, but thats only for single class kensais, another nice touch is of course to have them dual to thieves and once they reach epic lvls they can use any item and thus any armor and bracelets too...
oh, and if you found critical hits impressive...think of the backstabbing dmg

Edited by Discordia, 01 August 2008 - 04:46 PM.