After I completed a Deva quest by creating this dual being from the deva and the demon, Jon stopped to talk to me.
Maybe i was early with the Deva? I went to WK right after killed Gronmir.
(JONUNDECIDED is still 1 and JonTalk is 11...and i cannot trigger more talks)
timing
Started by
-Shasa-
, Jul 19 2008 03:40 PM
14 replies to this topic
#2
dorotea
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Posted 19 July 2008 - 08:43 PM
After I completed a Deva quest by creating this dual being from the deva and the demon, Jon stopped to talk to me.
Maybe i was early with the Deva? I went to WK right after killed Gronmir.
(JONUNDECIDED is still 1 and JonTalk is 11...and i cannot trigger more talks)
Talks would not happen inside the Watcher's Keep. Finish your business there and get out to get more conversations. Same pattern is true for official romances btw. WK is considered dungeon area. My main reason was that you already have major quest in there and there are many Jon-other npcs interactions inside WC. Plus there should be an interesting conversation between PC and Jon around the Demogorgon's lair.
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.
Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.
The Longer Road mod
Redemption mod
Bitter Grey Ashes
#3
-Shasa-
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Posted 20 July 2008 - 11:52 AM
I got some response after we killed the Demogorgon something in the style We're still alive but after that, nothing.
Maybe i am being impatient, maybe after abizgal or sendai i'll get some talks...
btw, after reading through BITTER GREY ASHES
i deciced to try LR - (never thought to do it before, Irenicus in SoA unnervingly reminds me of Dr. Mengele)
and I have a question about the redemption thing - how can you redeem someone who has no any feelings exept the ones he gets from the player?
Should i try to prove to him that being good it's the logical thing to do? How can i get some true remorse here?
Maybe i am being impatient, maybe after abizgal or sendai i'll get some talks...
btw, after reading through BITTER GREY ASHES
i deciced to try LR - (never thought to do it before, Irenicus in SoA unnervingly reminds me of Dr. Mengele)
and I have a question about the redemption thing - how can you redeem someone who has no any feelings exept the ones he gets from the player?
Should i try to prove to him that being good it's the logical thing to do? How can i get some true remorse here?
#4
Icendoan
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"An Infinite Deal of Nothing"
Posted 20 July 2008 - 12:10 PM
He should have recent memory of feeling (this is with no knowledge of the mod, just an in-game observation) due to his theft of your soul.
After a certain event involving souls he should have feelings properly and you could probably trigger empathic responses in any part of ToB.
Icen
After a certain event involving souls he should have feelings properly and you could probably trigger empathic responses in any part of ToB.
Icen
#5
-Shasa-
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Posted 20 July 2008 - 02:15 PM
I think you're right, memories of how he felt when he had a stolen soul and this special bond he has with the player decides the outcome.
Charname is evil = he stays evil too
Charname is good and decides to redeem him = he's redeemed. The poor guy didn't really had a choice here.
I think the last thing remained of the real Joneleth was his pride after his soul was destructed (after all his other emotions disappeared)
but he sacrificed it in the end to get forgiveness... i think it's really sad.
Charname is evil = he stays evil too
Charname is good and decides to redeem him = he's redeemed. The poor guy didn't really had a choice here.
I think the last thing remained of the real Joneleth was his pride after his soul was destructed (after all his other emotions disappeared)
but he sacrificed it in the end to get forgiveness... i think it's really sad.
#6
Icendoan
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"An Infinite Deal of Nothing"
Posted 20 July 2008 - 10:49 PM
I think you're right, memories of how he felt when he had a stolen soul and this special bond he has with the player decides the outcome.
Charname is evil = he stays evil too
Charname is good and decides to redeem him = he's redeemed. The poor guy didn't really had a choice here.
I think the last thing remained of the real Joneleth was his pride after his soul was destructed (after all his other emotions disappeared)
but he sacrificed it in the end to get forgiveness... i think it's really sad.
I disagree.
It is perfectly easy to block yourself off from the world and not take anybody else's view from your own. This is why it is a challenge.
Icen
#7
arguskos
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Posted 21 July 2008 - 12:59 PM
Having played the mod (and found it MOST EXCELLENT), I can say that Icendoan is pretty much spot-on here.
Irenicus has feelings, YOURS to be precise, since he's soul-bound to you. However, he can use logic to ignore or disregard them, and will. The goal of the redemption is to use his own logic against him. You defeat him with his own logical arguments, not with petty feelings (though they play a role too).
On a more, on-topic note, I recently managed to get him to take Illmater's offer, and was SOO pleased with myself. It's rare a mod makes me feel good about my effort, but this one did. Amazing mod, and excellent work!
(Now.... if only there was a Bodhi Redemption.... 
)
-argus
Irenicus has feelings, YOURS to be precise, since he's soul-bound to you. However, he can use logic to ignore or disregard them, and will. The goal of the redemption is to use his own logic against him. You defeat him with his own logical arguments, not with petty feelings (though they play a role too).
On a more, on-topic note, I recently managed to get him to take Illmater's offer, and was SOO pleased with myself. It's rare a mod makes me feel good about my effort, but this one did. Amazing mod, and excellent work!
(Now.... if only there was a Bodhi Redemption.... )-argus
"Here's what 4-year old's know: a screen that ships without a mouse isn't worth paying attention to!" - Clay Shirky (http://blip.tv/file/855937)
#8
-Shasa-
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Posted 21 July 2008 - 02:13 PM
Sure, it's a great mod and these days me playing it almost nonstop, it's my luck that i am on vacation 
#9
Icendoan
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"An Infinite Deal of Nothing"
Posted 21 July 2008 - 02:22 PM
Thanks, I feel all warm and fuzzy to know that I can interpret people, even fictional characters, like that.
Makes me a scary guy to get on the wrong side of though.
Icen
Makes me a scary guy to get on the wrong side of though.
Icen
#10
dorotea
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Posted 22 July 2008 - 06:36 PM
thank you guys - it brings m strange pleasure to read your reaction to this mod - after so many years it is like rediscovering my own ideas back when the mod was created; after all the controversy that LR caused and all the amount of venom poured over the 'Dr Mengele redemption' attempt... well, at least some of you don't feel I was insane or 'soft on evil' or some such nonsense...
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.
Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.
The Longer Road mod
Redemption mod
Bitter Grey Ashes
#11
Icendoan
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"An Infinite Deal of Nothing"
Posted 23 July 2008 - 04:49 AM
Of course not, I am just waiting for another BGA chapter.
Icen
Icen
#12
-Shasa-
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Posted 24 July 2008 - 02:49 AM
i didn't intended to offend with my analogy about Dr. Mengele and, ehm "pour venom" 
just meant i think Bioware succeeded to shape a really clood-bloded eevil experimenator
i really appreciate your work and the new angle of the Irenicus confict...
just meant i think Bioware succeeded to shape a really clood-bloded eevil experimenatori really appreciate your work and the new angle of the Irenicus confict...
#13
dorotea
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Posted 25 July 2008 - 06:05 PM
i didn't intended to offend with my analogy about Dr. Mengele and, ehm "pour venom"
i really appreciate your work and the new angle of the Irenicus confict...
Don't take it personally - my remark was not about your comment at all - there were battles fought here in this forum years ago - some were very nasty ones... with many a prominent modder coming after me and this mod with angry words and mockery... don't be upset, and no need at all to apologize, I perfectly understood that your posts here were not offensive at all.
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.
Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.
The Longer Road mod
Redemption mod
Bitter Grey Ashes
#14
Sergei Lebedeff
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Posted 26 October 2008 - 02:59 PM
Irenicus is no more evil than Raistlin of Dragonlance. If one was redempted, why we should deny the right of the other?
About the comparison with nazi doctor. No. There is no clues that would show us that Irenicus was fascinated with torture and pain. Moreover, he feels (or he knows that he must feel) compassion towards PC and Imoen.
"Not to worry. Nothing worse than I shall do to your friend"
he says that he regrets what he must do with PC. He even tries to feel sorry for Bodhi (actuallly she is a candidate to assume Dr Mengele post in FR).
About the comparison with nazi doctor. No. There is no clues that would show us that Irenicus was fascinated with torture and pain. Moreover, he feels (or he knows that he must feel) compassion towards PC and Imoen.
"Not to worry. Nothing worse than I shall do to your friend"
he says that he regrets what he must do with PC. He even tries to feel sorry for Bodhi (actuallly she is a candidate to assume Dr Mengele post in FR).
#15
Icendoan
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"An Infinite Deal of Nothing"
Posted 26 October 2008 - 03:37 PM
No, here I seriously disagree.
Reilev says he is fascinated with death. Imoen saw his fervour, his journal implies this. When did you last play the game, may I ask?
And that quote can be used logically. Basically, all he is trying to do is not expend effort on forcing Imoen to comply. It means nothing to him, but logical, psychological tactics. Knowing that someone else is in the same state as you is enormously reassuring, and he is using this against Imoen.
If I knew that saying something would allow me to get where I wanted to get to, I probably would say it, whether or not it meant anything to me.
Icen
Reilev says he is fascinated with death. Imoen saw his fervour, his journal implies this. When did you last play the game, may I ask?
And that quote can be used logically. Basically, all he is trying to do is not expend effort on forcing Imoen to comply. It means nothing to him, but logical, psychological tactics. Knowing that someone else is in the same state as you is enormously reassuring, and he is using this against Imoen.
If I knew that saying something would allow me to get where I wanted to get to, I probably would say it, whether or not it meant anything to me.
Icen
