5 replies to this topic

[aVENGER]

I've examined this component and noticed that it doesn't actually do what it claims. The reason the author (Salk?) didn't consider the Thieving Skill Base Score values (i.e. those that every thief gets at level 1) which are also included in SKILLRAC.2DA. Here are a few tables from the 2E PHB which will help illustrate my point:

2E AD&D Player's Handbook - Table 26: Thieving Skill Base Scores

Skill			 Base Score
Pick Pockets		 15%
Open Locks		   10%
Find/Remove Traps	 5%
Move Silently		10%
Hide in Shadows	   5%
Detect Noise		 15%
Climb Walls		  60%
Read Languages		0%

2E AD&D Player's Handbook - Table 27: Thieving Skill Racial Adjustments

Skill			   Dwarf	 Elf	 Gnome	 Half-elf	 Halfling
Pick Pockets		 --	   +5%	  --		+10%		  +5%
Open Locks		  +10%	  -5%	 +5%		 --		   +5%
Find/Remove Traps   +15%	  --	  +10%		--		   +5%
Move Silently		--	   +5%	 +5%		 --		  +10%
Hide in Shadows	  --	   +10%	+5%		+5%		  +15%
Detect Noise		 --	   +5%	 +10%		--		   +5%
Climb Walls		 -10%	  --	  -15%		--		  -15%
Read Languages	   -5%	  --	   --		 --		   -5%

Now, take a look ad SKILLRAC.2DA from the unmodded BG2:

2DA V1.0
0
			PICK_POCKETS	OPEN_LOCKS	  FIND_TRAPS	  MOVE_SILENTLY   HIDE_IN_SHADOWS   DETECT_ILLUSION   SET_TRAPS
HUMAN	   15			  10			  5			   10			  5				 0				 0
DWARF	   15			  20			  20			  10			  5				 5				 10
ELF		 20			  5			   5			   20			  15				0				 0
GNOME	   15			  15			  15			  15			  10				10				5
HALF_ELF	25			  10			  5			   15			  10				0				 0
HALFLING	20			  15			  10			  25			  20				0				 0
HALFORC	 15			  10			  5			   10			  5				 0				 0

Notice that the Thieving Skill Racial Adjustments are added to the Thieving Skill Base Scores in this file. More specifically, check the line concerning Humans and compare it to the values from Table 26. They are identical because Humans don't get any racial adjustment bonus to their thief skills so they are left only with the base score values. Now take a look at the Dwarven values. If you subtract the Thieving Skill Base Scores from the total result you get the proper Thieving Skill Racial Adjustment values from Table 27. It's that simple. However, even so there are some minor errors regarding Move Silently and Hide in Shadows values which indeed need to be corrected.

Now, here's what the BGT Tweak component does to SKILLRAC.2DA:

2DA V1.0
0
			PICK_POCKETS	OPEN_LOCKS	  FIND_TRAPS	  MOVE_SILENTLY   HIDE_IN_SHADOWS   DETECT_ILLUSION   SET_TRAPS
HUMAN	   0			   0			   0				 0			   5				 0				 0
DWARF	   0			  10			   15				0			   5				 5				 10
ELF		 5			  -5			   0				15			   15				0				 0
GNOME	   0			   5			  10				10			   10				10				5
HALF_ELF	10			  0			   0				 5			   10				0				 0
HALFLING	5			   5			   5				25			   20				0				 0
HALFORC	 15			 10			   5				10			   5				 0				 0

As you can see, this component merely removes Thieving Skill Base Scores and does so somewhat inconsistently as well. In short, it currently doesn't restore the PnP values as it claims to do. Therefore, you might want to consider recoding it.

Edited by aVENGER, 27 June 2008 - 11:32 PM.

[aVENGER]

If it helps, here's the code which would properly restore the PnP values:

BEGIN ~Proper (PnP) Thieving Skill Racial Adjustments~

COPY_EXISTING ~SKILLRAC.2DA~ ~override~
  SET_2DA_ENTRY 2 4 8 ~15~ // Elf Move Silently correction
  SET_2DA_ENTRY 4 4 8 ~10~ // Half-Elf Move Silently correction
  SET_2DA_ENTRY 5 4 8 ~20~ // Halfling Move Silently correction
  SET_2DA_ENTRY 6 3 8 ~10~ // Half-Orc Find Traps correction
BUT_ONLY_IF_IT_CHANGES

For reference, this code would create the following SKILLRAC.2DA table:

2DA V1.0
0
			PICK_POCKETS	OPEN_LOCKS	  FIND_TRAPS	  MOVE_SILENTLY   HIDE_IN_SHADOWS   DETECT_ILLUSION   SET_TRAPS
HUMAN	   15			  10			  5			   10			  5				 0				 0
DWARF	   15			  20			  20			  10			  5				 5				 10
ELF		 20			  5			   5			   15			  15				0				 0
GNOME	   15			  15			  15			  15			  10				10				0
HALF_ELF	25			  10			  5			   10			  10				0				 0
HALFLING	20			  15			  10			  20			  20				0				 0
HALFORC	 15			  10			  10			  10			  5				 0				 0

Edited by aVENGER, 28 June 2008 - 01:45 AM.

[erebusant]

If it helps, here's the code which would properly restore the PnP values:

BEGIN ~Proper (PnP) Thieving Skill Racial Adjustments~

COPY_EXISTING ~SKILLRAC.2DA~ ~override~
  SET_2DA_ENTRY 2 4 8 ~15~ // Elf Move Silently correction
  SET_2DA_ENTRY 4 4 8 ~10~ // Half-Elf Move Silently correction
  SET_2DA_ENTRY 5 4 8 ~20~ // Halfling Move Silently correction
  SET_2DA_ENTRY 6 3 8 ~10~ // Half-Orc Find Traps correction
BUT_ONLY_IF_IT_CHANGES

For reference, this code would create the following SKILLRAC.2DA table:

2DA V1.0
0
			PICK_POCKETS	OPEN_LOCKS	  FIND_TRAPS	  MOVE_SILENTLY   HIDE_IN_SHADOWS   DETECT_ILLUSION   SET_TRAPS
HUMAN	   15			  10			  5			   10			  5				 0				 0
DWARF	   15			  20			  20			  10			  5				 5				 10
ELF		 20			  5			   5			   15			  15				0				 0
GNOME	   15			  15			  15			  15			  10				10				0
HALF_ELF	25			  10			  5			   10			  10				0				 0
HALFLING	20			  15			  10			  20			  20				0				 0
HALFORC	 15			  10			  10			  10			  5				 0				 0

Does this require new character generation to become effective? Never Mind I answered my own question. The changes will effect your character in game. No new generation required.

Edited by erebusant, 28 June 2008 - 10:29 AM.

[Salk]

Thanks for providing these corrections, aVenger!

I am not the coder of the component, I had only told Ascension64 that the vanilla values were wrong (it was quite a long time ago so I don't remember details about it).

I am sure the next version of BGT Tweaks will have the corrected values...

[aVENGER]

Glad to hear it.

BTW, if you don't mind, I'd like to include a similar component in some future version of Rogue Rebalancing. However, I'll probably use the tables from the "Skills and Powers" supplement, because they also contain base scores for Detect Illusions and the Half-Orc racial modifiers.

[Salk]

Of course I don't mind!

I actually think that a similar concept suits better RR than BGT Tweaks so please go ahead!