52 replies to this topic

[Galactygon]

I have a question for all of you, that I would like to incorporate in the next version of SpellPack:

According to your experience installing mods, what are the exact reasons for incompatibilities between SpellPack and mod xyz? Is it just the projectl.ids? Does it completely prevent a mod from functioning?

Now that I have the time, I definitely would like to give this attention. I cannot overhaul my code, but I can certainly incorporate some changes from other mods in SpellPack, just so they are compatible.

-Galactygon

[Miloch]

According to your experience installing mods, what are the exact reasons for incompatibilities between SpellPack and mod xyz? Is it just the projectl.ids? Does it completely prevent a mod from functioning?

I think the main issue is that since you are copying over certain .ids and .2da files, any mods that add entries to these .ids and .2da files will have their changes overwritten if SpellPack is installed after them.

Fortunately, the patching code is pretty easy (for this at least). As you probably know, all you have to do is add entries such as:

APPEND ~projectl.ids~ ~502 FSTRM1~ UNLESS ~502 FSTRM1~

In fact you can probably add all your entries in one block, as long as you're fairly sure they wouldn't exist already unless someone's already installed your mod. And if you want to change an entry, you can do that with COPY_EXISTING and REPLACE_TEXTUALLY

The spell patching is a lesser issue, but it would ensure maximum compatibility (i.e. make sure your mod wouldn't have to be installed necessarily before other mods). Some mods just change some really minor things with certain spells - if both mods are patching, there's less potential for conflict. Of course, if the mods are trying to do two different things to a spell there might still be conflict. But I'm sure we'd all love to see SpellPack fully compatible with the Fixpack and Divine Remix.

[Leomar]

Thanks again Miloch for your informations and your advices.


@ Galactygon

Thanks for looking into this thread. Like you can read here, we want your great mod in our recommended BW-version, because the German gamers love your mod, too. It would be nice, if you can make your SpellPack compatible like Miloch mentioned.

Greetings Leomar

[Galactygon]

Anything else besides the projectl.ids? It is not very high on my list; I only know a few mods that change this file, and other than the BGII Fixpack, I am not very concerned, unless I missed something. The various .2das and .ids files SpellPack overwrites are even lower on my list because I do not know any other mod that uses them. Seriously.

What I am looking for is something specific, like "SpellPack has problems with mod xyz because SpellPack overrides this feature of mod xyz". So I can dive in and know where to start.

-Galactygon

[Galactygon]

Thanks for looking into this thread. Like you can read here, we want your great mod in our recommended BW-version, because the German gamers love your mod, too. It would be nice, if you can make your SpellPack compatible like Miloch mentioned.

I use the search feature pretty often, but earlier I didn't have much time to worry about them.

-Galactygon

[aVENGER]

Anything else besides the projectl.ids? It is not very high on my list; I only know a few mods that change this file, and other than the BGII Fixpack, I am not very concerned, unless I missed something.

Rogue Rebalancing will also add a couple of new projectiles to the game as of the next version.

BTW, there's a very easy way to do this - simply use the ADD_PROJECTILE WeiDU command.

[Azazello]

Anything else besides the projectl.ids? It is not very high on my list; I only know a few mods that change this file, and other than the BGII Fixpack, I am not very concerned, unless I missed something. The various .2das and .ids files SpellPack overwrites are even lower on my list because I do not know any other mod that uses them. Seriously.

What I am looking for is something specific, like "SpellPack has problems with mod xyz because SpellPack overrides this feature of mod xyz". So I can dive in and know where to start.

-Galactygon

The only definitive issue I've seen reported is that with IDS +/- 2DA overwriting. Despite what Miloch wrote, I know of no compatibility problems with other mods beyond IDS/2DA. The BWP team might has some specific reports to refute this.

With Divine Remix, you have specifically advised in the SpellPack readme and forum to install it before DR. And although patching is the coding method de preference, because of the nature of your mod, redesigning (overwriting) existing spells is exactly the goal desired.

In my opinion, (once the IDS/2DA issue is resolved) SpellPack does not need to go to the Expert mode of BWP, as the player can choose whether or not to install it.

Edited by Azazello, 29 June 2008 - 11:31 PM.

[Miloch]

Anything else besides the projectl.ids? It is not very high on my list; I only know a few mods that change this file, and other than the BGII Fixpack, I am not very concerned, unless I missed something. The various .2das and .ids files SpellPack overwrites are even lower on my list because I do not know any other mod that uses them. Seriously.

It is mainly projectl.ids. There are several mods that change this file, including Fixpack, BP v177, PlanarSphere, RoT, TDD. Thrown Hammers adds some projectiles to it dynamically (using the ADD_PROJECTILE command). Edit: As do a whole slew of other mods, including BoneHill, Exnem Vault, NEJ2, Song+Silence, ADPack, BG2 Tweaks, DR, WildMage, Refinements, SCSII, etc.

In addition, the RPG Kitpack appends some entries to msectype.2da.

In my opinion, (once the IDS/2DA issue is resolved) SpellPack does not need to go to the Expert mode of BWP, as the player can choose whether or not to install it.

That is really all that "Expert mode" means, I believe (gives players the choice to install the mod rather than making it install by default).

Edited by Miloch, 30 June 2008 - 06:12 AM.

[Galactygon]

If RPG Kit Pack is the only mod that touches msectype.2da and such, then I will not worry about it. I couldn't anyway, because these are the few things I can never patch, no matter what I do.

But the Projectl.ids worries me more now.

There are several mods that change this file, including Fixpack, BP v177, PlanarSphere, RoT, TDD. Thrown Hammers adds some projectiles to it dynamically (using the ADD_PROJECTILE command). Edit: As do a whole slew of other mods, including BoneHill, Exnem Vault, NEJ2, Song+Silence, ADPack, BG2 Tweaks, DR, WildMage, Refinements, SCSII, etc.

More than I thought. Because I don't have time to figure things out (it is not as simple as an ADD_PROJECTILE and patch a few spells and I am not very good with WeiDU), I would like to see in some shape or form some sample code that I could work off of:
1.) ADD_PROJECTILE (the easy part)
2.) Patching spells and items (still the easy part)
3.) Patching effects within spells that use projectile entries (ie physical mirror).
4.) Patching projectiles that use other projectiles (yes, there are some).

The best thing, really would be writing some sort of function that assigns a new projectile value based off an old value and making sure all projectiles, effects, spells, and items using some old value are patched to some new value.

What I am talking about is literally, patching thousands of spells with hundreds of projectiles. If I change SpellPack, then I have to change the rest of my work as well. I cannot deviate and split my work into two. This is no joke, and I am not willing to do this alone.

-Galactygon

[Azazello]

In my opinion, (once the IDS/2DA issue is resolved) SpellPack does not need to go to the Expert mode of BWP, as the player can choose whether or not to install it.

That is really all that "Expert mode" means, I believe (gives players the choice to install the mod rather than making it install by default).

I believe you are mythstaken. See first post for descriptions of 'Expert version'.

[Miloch]

I would like to see in some shape or form some sample code that I could work off of:
1.) ADD_PROJECTILE (the easy part)
2.) Patching spells and items (still the easy part)
3.) Patching effects within spells that use projectile entries (ie physical mirror).
4.) Patching projectiles that use other projectiles (yes, there are some).

I replied to this in a new topic, since it gets pretty technical.

That is really all that "Expert mode" means, I believe (gives players the choice to install the mod rather than making it install by default).

I believe you are mythstaken. See first post for descriptions of 'Expert version'.

Not 'mythstaken' just using a summarised version of it:

2. Expert version:
...are only installed if you remove the detent before.
[...]
So you can install these mods then on own risk in addition to the megamod...

In other words, installed by choice rather than by default .

So it means other things too... I would still say it fits and leave it in Expert until it's revised and until more people test it with other spell-changing mods in the BWP. Hopefully it will become a moot point eventually.

[Azazello]

That is really all that "Expert mode" means, I believe (gives players the choice to install the mod rather than making it install by default).

I believe you are mythstaken. See first post for descriptions of 'Expert version'.

Not 'mythstaken' just using a summarised version of it:

2. Expert version:
...are only installed if you remove the detent before.
[...]
So you can install these mods then on own risk in addition to the megamod...

In other words, installed by choice rather than by default .

So it means other things too... I would still say it fits and leave it in Expert until it's revised and until more people test it with other spell-changing mods in the BWP. Hopefully it will become a moot point eventually.

Now you're just being contrary, not being able to admit you're wrong. Or a half-orc barbarian. Or both.

In terms of testing, if you want anecdotal experiences of SP compatibility, I and Chevalier have been using SpellPack for many moons. I can report no bugs {hmm, let me see, my weidu.log is somewhere around here...}. Chevalier can give his own opinion. Someone can grep the forums for weidu logs with 'spellpack' in 'em, to spot potential bugs.

My only warning is to ensure players are reminded to RTFM - e.g. SP's Invisibility Purge is no joke.

[Miloch]

Now you're just being contrary, not being able to admit you're wrong. Or a half-orc barbarian. Or both.

Sigh. Your reason for SP not being in 'Expert' mode was 'the player can choose whether or not to install it.' Really, by that definition alone, nothing would be in 'Expert' mode, or everything would, depending how you interpret it. That's not a case for saying 'this mod should be part of the standard BWP install for all users.'

In terms of testing, if you want anecdotal experiences of SP compatibility, I and Chevalier have been using SpellPack for many moons. I can report no bugs {hmm, let me see, my weidu.log is somewhere around here...}. Chevalier can give his own opinion. Someone can grep the forums for weidu logs with 'spellpack' in 'em, to spot potential bugs.

Now this is perhaps starting to make such a case, though it's a bit vague. 'Many moons' = 6 or so since SPb4 was released? (Previous versions don't count, since "The entire structure of the mod has been revamped" as Galactygon said when this was released in January.) We've established that if you install the current mod as is, you wipe other projectiles added by any mods before it, which IMO is good enough for moving it to 'Expert' or at least changing the install order until the mod is updated to avoid this.

Also, the absence of bugs does not denote compatibility. You could overwrite content added by other mods and not experience any bugs or otherwise have a clue unless you knew the code of those mods inside and out. And arguing that SPb4's point is to overhaul the spell system does not give it free rein to overwrite projectl.ids, as there are mods that have nothing to do with spells that add projectiles.

[Chevalier]

I have been using the older version (SpellPackB3) in full or part (I only install a few spells) for some time now. I stopped using the full version because on my older computer because of slowdowns when casting Web, Stinking Cloud & others during combat. I have not made a new install with my now upgraded computer to try the latest version of SpellPack. Bugs with a Mega install?? I have not seen any when playing (CtD's or other apparent bugs).


I really like Galactygon's SpellPack & Andyr, NiGHTMARE, Grim Squeaker's Divine Remix and hope they will work well with the Mega install and since I have not been planing a new install I have not been keeping up with Demivrgvs' Spell Revisions Mod to see how well/if it should work with SpellPack & Divine Remix and without on a Mega Install.

Edited by Chevalier, 30 June 2008 - 04:16 PM.

[Leomar]

Miloch's words are right:

Gives players the choice to install the mod rather than making it install by default.

Over again to clarify it:

The BW-version should become recommended, mostly bugfree and a BG faithful content installation. In this chosen mods of the BW-version we want to put our main work to try to reach this goal. And with over 160 mods it would not be easy. This 160 mods are the mods which the most gamers wants and are supportet from the modauthors or fans of it. Therefore we will support this mods in the BWP, too.

All the others mods, most players do not want them, have either few contents or could be make problems in a megamod installation. Therefore we have decided to put the rest of the mods in the Expert-version instead of to remove it from the BWP, because we think, that gamers like the one or the other mod and would install it with the BW-version. This option we will give them, but we have not the time, to support this mods, too and also you install them on your own risk.

There are few mods, we have put in the Expert-version, because they are not compatible at the moment, but we want to move them in the BW-version, when they are fixed. At the end of the first post we have list these mods. SpellPack is one of them.

All your reasons about SpellPack are right, but it is recommended to install SpellPack before BG2 Fixpack at the moment. So SP is in Expert-version and you can decide if you want this or not. When SP is fixed and it is not more recommended to install before BG2 Fixpack, we move SP into BW-version, because the gamers want this great mod, and we want to support it in such a megamod.

Sorry for my german english, but I try to describe it as good as I can. If you have more questions about these versions, please ask.

Greetings Leomar

Edited by Leomar, 01 July 2008 - 01:16 AM.

[Azazello]

Miloch, for some reason, your past few posts, over several threads, you keep repeating yourself, and worse, saying what we already know. Don't take my word for it (you won't) - go back and review your posts. Are you doing this for the benefit of the studio audience, or do you really think those of us commenting in these threads don't understand the complications? I find it annoying, even though I know you're not doing it purposely to be annoying (being a half-orc barbarian to the side). I want to be clear about my observations: I am your bud, I'll always back your play, but I gotta tell you, if needed, to chill-out. Please, vice versa.

Take a deep breath before responding, and ask yourself if you really need to respond. And how.

Following your lead, let's begin again (without quote box):

-- The distinction between 'BW-version' vs. 'Expert-version' is not clear because no where in the first post does it say 'Expert-version should be used if you want to install bits-and-pieces of mods, making your own version of BWP'. Not repeating myself, or the first post, it says that 'Expert-version' is for mods of questionable compatibility with BWP. That's it. Don't take my word for it (you won't), so better reread the first post again quickly, because my next request is for clarity of the two versions.

-- Up to this very day, players are encouraged to use BWP as a guide, installing only those mods they want, with the implied premise that their custom install will be stable because, of course, it is based on a very stable build.

Anybody want me to post links proving this?

I thought not.

If this philosophy is still continued, which version would the player use?
Is this philosophy still in effect, or has it been rejected?
Whatever...Make it clear in the first post. Make it clear in every future comments to BWP players.

This is not a question about SpellPack. This is about a clear explanation of each BWP version, and the distinctions between them.

-- "Previous versions don't count, since "The entire structure of the mod has been revamped" as Galactygon said when this was released in January."
If 'Expert-version' is indeed the sandbox for "not extensively tested mods", then true, let's sandbox SP. But for a fact many of the mods on BWP were not pretested extensively. And who determines the level of testing? Who determines passage to production release? Not you. Not me. Not even Leomar alone. So who?

We don't want arbitrary decisions or rules. A modder will want to know exactly what s/he has to do, for how long, to meet BWP "standards". Does Galactygon's mod meet them? {before anyone repeats what's already been said, let me add: "...after the IDS/2DA issue has been resolved"} Does anyone want Galactygon to explain to us more about this new structure before a decision is made?

-- "We've established that if you install the current mod as is, you wipe other projectiles added by any mods before it, which IMO is good enough for moving it to 'Expert' or at least changing the install order until the mod is updated to avoid this."
We know/said this already.

-- "Also, the absence of bugs does not denote compatibility. You could overwrite content added by other mods and not experience any bugs or otherwise have a clue unless you knew the code of those mods inside and out."
We know/said this already.

-- "And arguing that SPb4's point is to overhaul the spell system does not give it free rein to overwrite projectl.ids, as there are mods that have nothing to do with spells that add projectiles."
We know/said this already. {Actually, I never said or implied this should be done - in fact, I strongly stated against this, by this mod or any other.}

Edited by Azazello, 10 July 2008 - 05:47 PM.

[Miloch]

Take a deep breath before responding, and ask yourself if you really need to respond. And how.

...

How's that? (I need to chill out? Heh heh... you have no idea how chilled I am... )

I think Leomar's post summed it up well, so I'm not going to repeat that or myself yet again .

[Leomar]

-- The distinction between 'BW-version' vs. 'Expert-version' is not clear because no where in the first post does it say 'Expert-version should be used if you want to install bits-and-pieces of mods, making your own version of BWP'. Not repeating myself, or the first post, it says that 'Expert-version' is for mods of questionable compatibility with BWP. That's it. Don't take my word for it (you won't), so better reread the first post again quickly, because my next request is for clarity of the two versions

Like you said, I think we have not clarify our BW-version and Expert-version right in the first post, so everyone understands why we want to do this and how it works. Please tell us your clarity of the two versions. How you understand the two versions?

Greetings Leomar

[Azazello]

-- The distinction between 'BW-version' vs. 'Expert-version' is not clear because no where in the first post does it say 'Expert-version should be used if you want to install bits-and-pieces of mods, making your own version of BWP'. Not repeating myself, or the first post, it says that 'Expert-version' is for mods of questionable compatibility with BWP. That's it. Don't take my word for it (you won't), so better reread the first post again quickly, because my next request is for clarity of the two versions

Like you said, I think we have not clarify our BW-version and Expert-version right in the first post, so everyone understands why we want to do this and how it works. Please tell us your clarity of the two versions. How you understand the two versions?

Greetings Leomar

Thank you.

I don't have clarity. That is what Miloch and I have been pinching each other about in these posts. That is why I have these few questions, I'm sure we can think of more.

Let us think of this from a FAQ viewpoint:

-- What (is / is not) BW-version/Expert-version?
-- Can I can change around the install order and still be BWP?
-- Must I play with all 160 mods to be considered BWP? Can I choose which mods, and which components in mods, and still be considered BWP - or is that just a mega-install?
-- If this is still BWP, and I want to use only 117 mods of the current BWP structure, which version is that considered?
-- If I use even just one of the Expert-version mods, am I in Expert-version? (Believe it or not, you are going to get this question.)
-- What kind of support and where will I get if in Expert-version?
-- How long/which criteria will announce a Expert-version mod is now in BW-version?

A64 made an excellent post -- one that stands alone, no replies allowed -- that fully explains "Mega-Mod". It could be used as an example of what to say about BW-version/Expert-version.


About mods in Expert-version: criteria for sandboxing, and releasing from - New thread or continue in this one?

[DeusEx]

@Leomar

I see you want to include some new mods so here is what I figured out about them so far:

If you want to include The Luxley Family NPC mod I suggest you install it after Nathaniel because it has Nathaniel Content
and that comp. gets skipped if installed before it, can you point me to the Nikitarellia NPC, Jandor NPC, Solaufein Flirt Pack pages so I can check them out, Miriam NPC can be installed without errors (still have to play it to see if there are problems), Viconia Friendship path works 100%, de?Arnise Romance can be installed without errors (still have to play it to see if there are problems), Angelo can be installed without errors (still have to play it to see if there are problems), Restored ToB Heads can be installed without errors (still have to play it to see if there are problems), Stuff of the Magi can be installed without errors (still have to play it to see if there are problems), One Pixel Productions works 100%, W-GUI (optional) works but I don't really like it (do you know where to find any more gui's).

Another mod that works with BWP is NPCkit and should be installed before NPCTweak (compatibility code for Anomen's items if NPC Kit Pack is installed and I haven't tried to install it on any other place since this install order works so thats another reason).

Hope this helps you a little for the next version of BWP.