20 replies to this topic

[Erephine]

I'd like to add that all of Ravel's 'typos' and grammar mistakes are in fact on purpose.

Edited by Erephine, 15 July 2008 - 08:16 AM.

[Qwinn]

Oh, I know Don't have any worry on that account. She's not the only one who had purposeful misspellings either - heh, just read Annah's dialogue, or Vaxis's. I exercised judgment, and I don't think I removed any purposeful misspellings. If you can find any specific circumstance where you think I -did-, please do let me know on the forums and I'll take a look at it.

You'll see a few lines of Ravel's dialogue in dialogfixes.tph solely due to punctuation changes - I got rid of the annoying convention (to me, at least, and Restoration Pack did the same) of including punctuation marks within asterisks used for emphasis. For *example,* I find it irritating that that comma was inside the asterisks - I would correct that use to, for *example*, something like *this*. Rather than *this.* It makes it much easier to read, IMO, especially with the given font that the game is in.

Bout the only -real- typo I think I found in Ravel's dialogue was this:

"Great, great trials of war... much too much to be born by any, any mortal thing."

I really do think that was meant to be "borne", not "born". She's got a ton of purposeful misspellings but I don't think that one was intended. It doesn't fit the same style of the others.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 06 June 2008 - 11:38 AM.

[Qwinn]

I took a look at Ravel's dialogue, so as to allay fears that I've done something bad. Here's the actual changes to spelling I can find on a semi-quick check:


"@1051636 = ~"Great, great trials of war... much too much to be born by any, any mortal thing."~ []"

"@1051677 = ~"Ah..." Ravel gestures at Annah, as if she is for sale upon on auction block. "Look upon the feisty tiefling... such *fiery* hair and voice..." Ravel smiles, baring her rows of yellowed teeth. "Shall I speak of *your* torment, tiefling?" ~ [] (replaced "on" with "an")

@1051689 = ~Ravel doesn't seem to have heard you - she still seems to be in the past, for her eyes dim, as if looking far away. "Such fire in your eyes, enough to stir a Gray Lady's heart... passion to be free, but when freed, the fire in your eyes guttered out. With the separation, your life has shed all meaning, I fear." Ravel smiles with her yellowed fangs, then *clicks* them together, as if laughing. "Mayhap you should sit on your hind legs and limp your forepaws -- mayhap Ravel will give you a another scrap of knowing."~ [] "removed extra 'a'"

@1051766 = ~"Of course they knew. Who would *not* want to travel here to meet with you, beautiful Ravel? Few opportunities does life provide for such a meeting. They wished to see if the tales of your power and beauty were true... as I knew them to be."~ [] (two spaces)

@1051769 = ~Ravel stares at you for a moment in silence, then her face splits into a horrendous grin, her row of yellowed fangs glistening in the faint light of her eyes. "Ahhhh... my precious man, you carry *only* words..." A blackish tongue darts from her purple lips, and rolls around the rim of her mouth, as if anticipation of a meal. "...but you are WELL armed, indeed..."~ [] (missing "in")

@1052003 = ~"Ha! More fools they... but isn't it such the way with mortals?"~ [] (removed extraneous "it" - you can do "but isn't it the way" or "but isn't such the way", but not both)

@1052048 = ~"The ritual gave you what you wanted, but *great* were the costs... the casting of shadows, the quiet, violent deaths of the mind, and the pain-taking emptiness... these things, a-dangerous were are in such a fragile vessel, no matter how strong a mortal man. Regret them and the ritual do I."~ [] (removed extraneous 'were')

@1052252 = ~Marta... Ravel... nods slowly. "As well he should, shouldn't he, Marta? Yes... yes, he should, Marta. Powerful magic to be found the guts of an immortal, yes... not like teethies... or eyes..."~ (added 'in')


There's more... most of the others are the punctuation change I mentioned... but I thought I'd provide this to point out that, no, not ALL of the misspellings in Ravel's dialogue are on purpose.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 06 June 2008 - 09:43 PM.

[Kaeloree]

Split into a new topic.

[Erephine]

You made me make a thread without making a thread

sneaky


--


I'm fairly sure the first one is intentional, at least it appears consistently on the first draft of Ravel's dialogue and the finished document (and the game, obviously!).

I haven't actually played in a long time, so I probably won't 'find' anything. I haven't even played it with Platter's fix pack yet.

Edited by Erephine, 07 June 2008 - 08:13 AM.

[Qwinn]

Alrighty. I will change "much too much to be borne by any mortal being" back to "much too much to be born by any mortal being", and it will appear as such in the next version.

Qwinn

[Miloch]

Alrighty. I will change "much too much to be borne by any mortal being" back to "much too much to be born by any mortal being", and it will appear as such in the next version.

That's silly. You're *hearing* him speak, not actually seeing it (game interface aside), so if the Nameless One translates the word as "born" when it should be "borne" then it's a defect in his own intelligence.

Misspelling words for "accent" purposes is different.

[Qwinn]

Honestly, I tend to agree Miloch I agreed to change it back for 2 reason:

1) I didn't want anyone dissuaded from playing the mods for thinking I was changing stuff that shouldn't be changed, which tends to annoy people more than not changing things that should be changed, and

2) I don't want to discourage people from bringing things like this up, as I think in the long run it's helpful to the health of the mod.

I figured leaving it as born was a small price to pay to accomplish those things

Qwinn

[Daulmakan]

You're doing an awesome job, man.

Cheers.

[Miloch]

I agreed to change it back for 2 reason:

Hmm, well I guess I missed the post where anyone argued for changing it back. I think all the typos you highlighted are legit, low profile fixes.

[SimDing0]

Well, dictionary.com says that "born" can be substituted for "borne" and keep the meaning, but that basically blows and I'd make it "borne" purely for ease of reading. It's a change that doesn't actually affect the dialogue because they sound the same and that's clearly the intended usage, and I think it lends a clarity that the original text lacks. (I had to read it twice to double-check what it was saying. Are we giving birth to war?*)



* No.

[Erephine]

That's silly. You're *hearing* him speak, not actually seeing it (game interface aside), so if the Nameless One translates the word as "born" when it should be "borne" then it's a defect in his own intelligence.

Misspelling words for "accent" purposes is different.

'him'? I take it you have not played PST?

This is a text-based RPG which means you can -just like you could in a book- use spelling or formatting as an active element. Of course this would not make sense in a movie, or whathaveyou, exactly like facial gestures and body language are not (usually) conveyed in text.

The way she talks essentially is a part of who Ravel is. Replacing words with different ones that sound the same (sometimes ambiguously, as in this case) is intentionally the way she was written.

[Qwinn]

Erephine: I do understand what you're saying. Let me explain what I originally meant by "She's got a ton of purposeful misspellings but I don't think that one was intended. It doesn't fit the same style of the others."


She does indeed have a bunch of purposeful misspellings. Here's a sample of them:

"I know not... knot? Knot the nature nor the cause of these hungers."

""A puzzle of bone and skin were you, always, intriguing, and the most beloved of all who came to me, petitioning, requesting, pleading... pleasing? Pleading for help."

""Seems it that we are a-meeting for the first time? No, no, not, not... knot?" Ravel seems confused for a moment, then shudders, as if throwing off a weight. "Knot at all."

"Time has chipped away at my memories as well, it would seem... seam? If you remember, tell me... "


There's a definite method to her madness there. Her misspellings aren't just simple replacements of words such as in the change you're contesting - when she deliberately misspells, she makes an issue of it. She asks herself which spelling is the correct one.

I don't really see any other misspellings that seem intentional that don't fit that format. Were the change you're talking about intentional, I would've expected it to be like this: ""much too much to be borne... born? Born by any mortal being". This is the only one I can see that could potentially qualify as "ambiguous", and lacking any partners, that makes it seem more like a mistake than intentional to me.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 08 June 2008 - 05:20 AM.

[Kulyok]

Are we giving birth to war?*)

Frei would say "aye" both in her interviews and in his fiction; I concur. Pratchett, incidentally, says the same thing in his "Thief of Time".

I've always been pro-separate component for all dialogue edits. Harsh as it sounds, I don't trust anyone who'd edit a good text years afterwards, even their own text: it's all too easy to banish the magic forever.

Besides, a corrector may easily become the text's mortal enemy; Latynina's "The Land of War" example, where a corrector changed "Shura Alimov"(board of Muslim theologians) to "Shura Alimova"(a girl's name), is very telling. I see the same pattern here.

As such, I do recommend dumping all dialogue changes into a separate component, always, whether it's BG2 fixpack, IWD fixpack or PS:T fixpack.

[Qwinn]

I will need a much better example than the one given here to be going that far, I'm afraid.

I see the same pattern here.

Pardon me, but... WHAT?

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 08 June 2008 - 05:23 AM.

[Erephine]

Yes, I agree it would be open to interpretation.

However, we're lucky enough to have Chris Avellone's notes and drafts on Ravel, and it seems unlikely that it 'slipped' since it is consistent on all of these as well as the game.

I also seem to remember some she didn't make an issue of. I can't remember any specific lines, but I think at one point she says something about Trias ('he lies... '?).

[Qwinn]

However, we're lucky enough to have Chris Avellone's notes and drafts on Ravel, and it seems unlikely that it 'slipped' since it is consistent on all of these as well as the game.

I don't find this a convincing argument, I'm afraid. I would suspect that most misspellings that wind up in the final game are introduced in the original draft and survive editing all the way to the final. On what basis would one assume that actual misspellings are introduced only in between them, and if one survived early as well as final edits it must've been intentional? Especially a misspelling as common as that one.

I also seem to remember some she didn't make an issue of. I can't remember any specific lines, but I think at one point she says something about Trias ('he lies... '?).

This is the only one I can find that it seems you could be referring to. There's arguably a double-entendre on the word "lies" there, but no purposeful misspelling that I see.

Ravel's eyes dim, as if she staring at something in the distance, and her voice slows. "A... fair-skinned one... must you ask. An angel, a deva, one who soars on the wings of morning and with his hands, is the architect of horizons. He lies, lies beyond my keeping, in another cage, in another prison... in his knowing is the knowing of what you wish to know. Ask him your questions, listen to his answers, use them as guides."

(At the risk of once again "killing the magic" of the original text, "as if she staring" will be corrected in the next Fixpack)

If someone can find more than one case that is "ambiguous", and can thus establish a pattern that such unheralded misspellings were intentional, that'll go far towards convincing me, but I don't see any such second example. I'm going to need more than this to concede that I've established a "pattern" - or even one single solitary example - of butchering the original dialogue.

And in case no one can tell - yes, I've gone back and changed it back to "borne". Several people chiming in agreeing with my original edit, plus vague unsupported accusations of establishing a PATTERN of butchering dialogue with only a single and very questionable criticism having been raised so far, makes me a lot, lot less willing to be generous.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 08 June 2008 - 06:57 AM.

[Miloch]

'him'? I take it you have not played PST?

I tried to once but all the typos drove me mad .

[Erephine]

PST text speak translation, anyone?

Ile bet U uve gt aL srts uv bRmy Qz she mmix ur Eroic stanz Greetz I haev som Qz... cn U teL me bout DIS plAc? hu's d laD of Pain? Im lukin 4 d magic Grdl v swNk yrn hav U cn it Do U knO whr a portal 2 d 2817 plaN v d abys mite b? Do U knO whr d hly flaymn frst-brnd grnk-slAiN vrpL hamR uv wUndin & RTN & shotin lytnin out ur bum iz she spiZ dung aL of it onlE gitz U n d ded-bUk I awt 2 kik U n d shinz 4 evN pestrN a pOr ol wmn bout it aL nw go awA & Leavz me n pc (-<-)!!!!!!

Edited by Erephine, 09 June 2008 - 02:47 PM.

[Qwinn]

LOL - nice one - that's one of my favorite dialogues in the game

Qwinn