171 replies to this topic

[Rastamage]

Is it just me or do you have a permanent aura cleansing? That would be unbalancing, not to the fight, but to the rest of the game.

Icen

I interrupt my current work (okay, I'm procrastinating) to address this. I have to agree that it may actually be too good an ability. I want to see a well-designed mod but I'd also prefer it to be in balance. We've already trimmed a lot off the original Stuff of the Magi's abilities. Should the aura cleansing go too? Maybe make the combined items spell casting time reduction better than the Robe of Vecna but remove aura cleansing?

[Tassadar88]

If you want to nerf it, you can keep it as an item ability x times a day for a limited amount of time.

[Rastamage]

If you want to nerf it, you can keep it as an item ability x times a day for a limited amount of time.

That's a pretty good idea. It lends importance to the spell casting time reduction items while still retaining the usefulness of the alacrity.

On another note, I'm trying to find a ninth mage-type mob (preferably in SoA) to add the ninth and final Stuff to. This is assuming that Kevmus can make Irenicus hold one of the two "bonus" items of a cloak and ring he thought we should include. Do you have any ideas? I'm poring over Watcher's Keep right now looking for a suitable mage-type mob. But I've been away from the BG series for a long while now so my memory is sketchy. My initial thought was the lich in the City Gate. I like the idea of using a lich since we're making Erevain a baelnorn. I think that mob may just be called "lich," though, and Stuff of the Magi sort of demands a named mob imo.

[Kaeloree]

Let me know when you've finished the dialogue, happy to code it for you.

[Rastamage]

Let me know when you've finished the dialogue, happy to code it for you.

Hey, thanks, that's great to hear. I feel like I've got the easy job between Kevmus and myself. It'd be great to have someone to help him with the code monkey stuff. I'm thinking it might be nice to add some dialogue for Viconia and Anomen as the only two romantic interests yet to chime in. Maybe a Minsc comment would be good too since he's one of the best characters in the history of CRPGs. I've wanted to add a dialogue for Minsc since the idea was forumlated but haven't come up with anything worthy of Minsc that wouldn't just be a rehash of his earlier dialogues. When I finish up (and Kevmus gets a chance to chime in on what's happened since he logged last night) I'd be glad to have you code it.

[Tassadar88]

If you want to nerf it, you can keep it as an item ability x times a day for a limited amount of time.

That's a pretty good idea. It lends importance to the spell casting time reduction items while still retaining the usefulness of the alacrity.

On another note, I'm trying to find a ninth mage-type mob (preferably in SoA) to add the ninth and final Stuff to. This is assuming that Kevmus can make Irenicus hold one of the two "bonus" items of a cloak and ring he thought we should include. Do you have any ideas? I'm poring over Watcher's Keep right now looking for a suitable mage-type mob. But I've been away from the BG series for a long while now so my memory is sketchy. My initial thought was the lich in the City Gate. I like the idea of using a lich since we're making Erevain a baelnorn. I think that mob may just be called "lich," though, and Stuff of the Magi sort of demands a named mob imo.

If you make Irenicus hold it, you will encounter the problem that you can´t get it "off his cold corpse" - because Irenicus never dies in SoA. IT can be done via area script, but it doesn´t explain how the item appeared in your inventory when the previous owner just waltzed away...

As for the Mage mobs, Aurumach Rilmanni in the Watcher keep is a lich on the penultimate floor and would be suitable, but as the Imprisoned one already has one of the items, it would make little sense to let him have it.

As for a mage to get one of the items in Suldanesselar, there is a strong caster who could have it - either Raamilah (SURAAM.CRE) - the one guarding Demin or better Suneer (SUSUNEER.CRE) in the Temple of Rillifane. (he casts level 9 spells and is a major caster there ;-) )

[Tassadar88]

By the way, there are two more minor things ... I would like to keep as many of the items on non-plot critical creatures. That is, you only get the item if you do a side-quest. You don´t have to fight the Imprisoned one, so that is cool. No need to tackle Firkraag if you are a Mage. Fine by me. Kangaxx is pretty strong and you don´t have to fight him in the main quest and the same for Layenne and Vongoethe. Ardulace is not really a fight, but it is an optional quest alright.

The only one you HAVE to fight in the original is Sendai and she is pretty strong too. On the other hand, giving such uber items to Tolgerias for example, whom nearly every mage meets on his Stronghold quest and HAS to kill him for the quest to go on, that would be way chesy. There are much stronger casters than that ;-)

[Rastamage]

If you make Irenicus hold it, you will encounter the problem that you can´t get it "off his cold corpse" - because Irenicus never dies in SoA. IT can be done via area script, but it doesn´t explain how the item appeared in your inventory when the previous owner just waltzed away...

As for the Mage mobs, Aurumach Rilmanni in the Watcher keep is a lich on the penultimate floor and would be suitable, but as the Imprisoned one already has one of the items, it would make little sense to let him have it.

As for a mage to get one of the items in Suldanesselar, there is a strong caster who could have it - either Raamilah (SURAAM.CRE) - the one guarding Demin or better Suneer (SUSUNEER.CRE) in the Temple of Rillifane. (he casts level 9 spells and is a major caster there ;-) )

I was debating Lavok, the ancestor of Valygar, but was running into that same problem of Kevmus having already singled out Tolgerias so that would be two in the same quest again. It makes even less sense to use two caster mobs in a lower level dungeon than Watcher's Keep. I think I may be partial to Lavok over Tolgerias, though. Lavok is a quest-end boss and Tolgerias is a bump along the way. I'll see what Kevmus thinks when he joins us in a few hours.

To the issue of Irenicus, would it be possible to have his mortal corpse spawn in the pocket plane with the PC get teleported there? When you meet him in the pocket plane for the final fight of SoA he's a demon, right? I'm partial to Irenicus having one of the SotM but not if I'm going to make a coding nightmare for Kevmus.

Suneer in the Temple of Rillifane is a good choice, I think. Is he human? As you can see from my dialogue post I put up earlier, tying the SotM back to Suldanesselar would be ideal for the backstory I've been cobbling.

So for the two new items we have by my math the plausible candidates of Irenicus (if possible), Suneer, Lavok, and Tolgerias. Aurumach Rilmanni in Watcher's Keep is a dark horse candidate. Aurumach makes the least sense, in the seeding of the loot within the game but is quite feasible within my story. It could even be possible that Erevain dealt with Aurumach personally in the "losing" of the SotM in the ritual of becoming a baelnorn. Hmm... that actually makes Aurumach an attractive candidate on second thought. I really like the Irenicus idea, though. He seems ideal for a mod called Stuff of the Magi.

EDIT: I think I agree about Tolgerias being a punk and not really worthy of an item from SotM. Is Lavok too low level also, do you think?

Edited by Rastamage, 04 June 2008 - 12:42 AM.

[Tassadar88]

To my knowledge, Irenicus doesn´t actually have a corpse animation. And besides, I think that we would be stepping on the compatibility toes of the Longer road mod ;-)

Yes, Lavok is also relatively low level, but then again, better that Tolgerias anyway :-p
Also, keep in mind that not only mages are eligible - see Firkraag and Demogorgon.
By the way, that is for Kevmus - if you want some coding help, I´ll be happy to - I have the readme-weidu and am not afraid to use it :-D

[Tassadar88]

Btw - Suneer is a level 20 human mage with good spells.

Tolgerias is a level 21 human mage, but he has much worse spells (as he comes much sooner in the game)

[Rastamage]

It's too bad Irenicus doesn't work well. I've never heard of the Longer Road mod but I certainly wouldn't want to step on their toes. I guess if I write it into the story line that Irenicus came to possess one of Erevain's SotM items then he gave it to Bodhi or Suneer. I thought I remembered reading somewhere that Irenicus doesn't like magic items anyway. I can't for the life of me recall where I came across such a notion, though.

Yeah, I'm leaning away from Tolgerias the more I think on it. He doesn't really fit into my story of Erevain scattering the SotM in his quest to become a baelnorn. Lavok fits with his necromancy experience, though, so I can keep him as a back up for the eighth NPC to hold a SotM item. I'm trying to think of another (non-dragon) NPC that is as epic as Firkraag or Demogorgon while also being optional. Guess I'll go read up on SoA over at GameFAQs and see if I can strike paydirt.

[Tassadar88]

I am just looking through all BGII cres in Near Infinity and looking for prospective keepers :-)
Watcher´s Keep provides a lot, a pity we can only put one or two there...
you could go for Aesgareth - the gambling Cambion
Azamantes - lvl 25 lich
Saladrex - dragon in WK
Shade lord - level 20 shadow
Vithal - the imprisoned mage in the underdark - 22 level human mage

other than that... plenty of chances in the Underdark - it can be with the beholders, elder brain, the demon knights, you name it :-)

What I wondered though, was whether we could not give it some RP potential by having the player do something BAD to achieve this power. Either give some of it to a good aligned NPC (Demin, or is she plot necessary later?) , or to put it as a prized possession of some temple or so, that if you want to get it, you HAVE to do things that a GOOD PC will not want to do.

[Tassadar88]

By the way, the Longer road is a mod that under some circumstances adds Irenicus as a party member to Throne of Bhaal.

[Rastamage]

Thanks for the FYI on the Longer Road. I was a bit curious.

My scan through the FAQ is probably not as scientific as your CRE search but I have come across some ideas. First off, I think I like the idea of Lavok and then either Suneer or Bodhi. Both Suneer and Bodhi are mandatory kills but make sense with the story I'm crafting. Also, I don't have two slots to fill but three. I forgot that if Lavok replaces Tolgerias that Tolgerias was replacing Sendai from Kevmus' swap yesterday.

I think it's safe to say that under most circumstances Demogorgon won't be beat until ToB's main quest. That leaves Demogorgon and Vongoethe as the ToB spoilers keeping the PC from gathering all the SotM before ToB starts. My reason this is important is I've been trying to keep to your earlier suggestion that as many fights as possible be optional.

What I'm getting at is I may have a really good candidate for the final item (if I incorporate Lavok and Suneer or Bodhi as seven and eight). The sahuagin king is fully optional as that part of the game can be skipped entirely. I'm stretching my limit on making a story behind all these item placements but, hopefully, I can continue to weave the tale so that it is cohesive and still plausible. I'm thinking here that maybe I can incorporate the drow mage into the story some how.

EDIT: I'm not sure I like the idea of making it hard on a good aligned PC to complete. I like the idea of good vs good in baelnorn vs PC. I don't think either should be in the wrong when it comes to blows. That and the fact that as part of the story I was having the baelnorn give all his SotM to evil aligned mobs to show his faith in the Seldarine.

Edited by Rastamage, 04 June 2008 - 02:08 AM.

[Tassadar88]

I think it's safe to say that under most circumstances Demogorgon won't be beat until ToB's main quest. That leaves Demogorgon and Vongoethe as the ToB spoilers keeping the PC from gathering all the SotM before ToB starts. My reason this is important is I've been trying to keep to your earlier suggestion that as many fights as possible be optional.
...
What I'm getting at is I may have a really good candidate for the final item (if I incorporate Lavok and Suneer or Bodhi as seven and eight). The sahuagin king is fully optional as that part of the game can be skipped entirely. I'm stretching my limit on making a story behind all these item placements but, hopefully, I can continue to weave the tale so that it is cohesive and still plausible. I'm thinking here that maybe I can incorporate the drow mage into the story some how.
...
EDIT: I'm not sure I like the idea of making it hard on a good aligned PC to complete. I like the idea of good vs good in baelnorn vs PC. I don't think either should be in the wrong when it comes to blows. That and the fact that as part of the story I was having the baelnorn give all his SotM to evil aligned mobs to show his faith in the Seldarine.

Yep, all for keeping the items for later stages and as demanding extra work to get them as it can be :-)
...
I was thinking about the Sahuagin city too - the drow mage does make some sense :-)
...
Well, overpowered items should come at some cost - and in this case, the cost should be more than the fight if it should have some roleplaying dimension. I like it when the player has to make a moral choice to prove that he is GOOD. If you want the items so much that you are willing to kill an innocent to get them, then you deserve them, but are no longer good. Also, good gets the better part of the deal everywhere in BG. It could do with some balancing :-) And if you need a backstory to how a good aligned NPC got the item, take a hero who fought and defeated the previous evil owner to save someone else. He got the item by right of might, is using it for good and if the PC wants it, they will have to fight. In roleplaying, a good aligned PC should not do that or he is not really good. That is something like what I had in mind...

Edited by Tassadar88, 04 June 2008 - 02:33 AM.

[Rastamage]

Well, if you read the second draft of my dialogue, I sort of make it a good vs good dilemma when the PC confronts Erevain in the pocket plane near the end of ToB. I didnt' quite make it the moral dilemma that you envision. I tried to make it rational from both the good and evil moral alignments.

Anyway, it's waaay later then I originally intended, but I see the light at the end of my tunnel. I am going to go with Lavok, Suneer, and the sahuagin king. I'm drafting the item flavor text now. I had to come up with some changes to the items based on Icendoan's rather valid point of view that the constant effect Improved Alacrity is probably game breaking on its own. I'll make two posts when I'm done; one for item flavor text and one with my perceptions on how to make a 9 item set and still maintain a semblance of balance. I'll be interested to hear from Kevmus on what he thinks on the development since he went to sleepy time. I personally like the idea of a "set bonus" of another one or two spellcasting speed modifier bonus. But he was the original voice for balancing the mod so it isn't a cheat one.

[kevmus]

Hi, everyone! It's great to see so much interest in this.

I agree that Permanent Aura Cleansing is also very overpowered
Maybe make it use once per day, lasts 2 rounds?

Also, Rastamage, if it's hard to explain why all of these NPC's got the items I think a simple
"Firkie sat on the old owner of the bracers and felt something pointy, he looked and found some cool mage's bracers to add to his pile of treasure." would work fine.

Actually didn't one of the original flavor texts say Erevain made the items 200 years ago?

Robe of the Magi

This is the final piece of the seven-piece set created by Erevain Beraskána over two centuries ago,

If that were true, then Irenicus couldn't have had the item originally. He also couldn't have met Erevain before Erevain was a baelnorn or really old.

Also, why would Erevain want the items back if he gave them away on purpose? (maybe add a simple: No one was supposed to COLLECT all the items! to the dialogue.)


Thanks for offering to help coding the dialogue, K'aeloree!
I've actually never done a dialogue before, so all help with that is appreciated.

Thanks for offering to help me with the rest of the codemonkey stuff, Tassadar. So far all that's left to do is:
Todo list:
Rastamage-Flavor text for nerfed SoTM items
K'aeloree-Add dialog to game
Unclaimed:
-Create Cloak and Ring of the Magi (yes to wild surge bonus, why not)
-Move Sendai's SoTM to Lavok
-Put cloak on Vithal
-Put ring on sahuagin king
(probably rastamage)-add interjections to Erevain dialog?
-Betatest
-Balance the items. (Im sure we'll find one item is overpowered and one is underpowered, etc

I agree with Lavok, and the sahuagin king for more item holders, but how about Vithal the imprisoned mage in the underdark? I really like that one. It's optional, you know before fighting him he'll have some cool stuff, and it'll be a slight twinge of evil added to the mod.

Also, I'm probably going to make the baelnorn appear if the player has 5 or more of the 9 items (so, half)
edit:
The bhaalspawn won't necessarily be wearing the items. Edwin or Imoen or Kelsey or Tashia or Multiplayer-Created-NPC#4 or *gasp* Jan will be wearing the items.
edit2:
A 'set bonus' would be cool with me.

Edited by kevmus, 04 June 2008 - 04:01 AM.

[Tassadar88]

As for the codemonkeying, I am now harvesting code samples to find out how to edit item usability from single class mages to sorcerer /optionally multiclass mages. Maybe I am stupid, but I was not able to find the sorcerer ID (can it be that it already IS the same as the mage one?)

Besides that, there is relevant code in G3Tweaks - here

/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\
/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\
/////												  \\\\\
///// Universal Clubs								  \\\\\
/////												  \\\\\
/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\
/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\

BEGIN Universal Clubs

copyCOPY_EXISTING_REGEXP GLOB ~^.+\.itm$~ ~override~
  READ_BYTE 0x31 "prof" ELSE 0
  PATCH_IF ("%prof%" = 115) BEGIN
	READ_BYTE 0x1f "fighter"
	PATCH_IF (("%fighter%" BAND "0b00001000") = "0b00000000") BEGIN // if usable by single-class fighter
	  READ_BYTE  0x20 "mage"
	  WRITE_BYTE 0x20 ("%mage%" BAND "0b11111011")
	END
  END
  BUT_ONLY_IF_IT_CHANGES

and this is in readme for weidu

COPY_EXISTING_REGEXP GLOB ~.*\.itm~ ~override~ //copies all item files
  READ_BYTE	"0x20" "mage" //reads the byte containing the mage usability flag
  READ_SHORT	"0x1C" "type" //reads the byte containing item type
  WRITE_BYTE	"0x1E" ("%bard%" BAND "0b10111111")  // makes usable by bards
  IF_EVAL (("%mage%" BAND "0b00000100") = "0b00000000") // if it is usable by mages

and the description texyt mass update...

/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\
/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\
/////												  \\\\\
///// Universal Clubs description updates			  \\\\\
/////												  \\\\\
/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\
/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\/////\\\\\

BEGIN @205000 DESIGNATED 2050
GROUP @9
REQUIRE_COMPONENT ~Setup-BG2_Tweaks.tp2~ ~2040~ @205001
REQUIRE_PREDICATE (("%LANGUAGE%" STRING_COMPARE_CASE "english" = 0) OR ("%LANGUAGE%" STRING_COMPARE_CASE "chinese" = 0)) @7
REQUIRE_PREDICATE NOT FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~bola01.itm~ @205002

// this file does nothing, it just allows other mods to detect this component
COPY_EXISTING ~sw1h01.itm~ ~override/cdt02050.g3~

STRING_SET 6703 @99001 // generic club description string

ACTION_IF FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~_blun01.itm~ THEN BEGIN
  COPY_EXISTING ~_blun01.itm~ ~override~
	SAY IDENTIFIED_DESC @99001
END

COPY_EXISTING ~_grblun.itm~ ~override~
			  ~grblun.itm~  ~override~
  PATCH_IF (SOURCE_SIZE > 0x71) THEN BEGIN // protects against invalid files
	SAY IDENTIFIED_DESC @99002
  END
  BUT_ONLY_IF_IT_CHANGES

COPY_EXISTING ~blun10.itm~ ~override~
  SAY IDENTIFIED_DESC @99003

COPY_EXISTING ~blun22.itm~ ~override~
  SAY IDENTIFIED_DESC @99004

COPY_EXISTING ~blun23.itm~ ~override~
  SAY IDENTIFIED_DESC @99005

COPY_EXISTING ~blun24.itm~ ~override~
  SAY IDENTIFIED_DESC @99006

COPY_EXISTING ~blun26.itm~ ~override~
  PATCH_IF (SOURCE_SIZE > 0x71) THEN BEGIN // protects against invalid files
	SAY IDENTIFIED_DESC @99007
  END
  BUT_ONLY_IF_IT_CHANGES

COPY_EXISTING ~blun27.itm~ ~override~
  PATCH_IF (SOURCE_SIZE > 0x71) THEN BEGIN // protects against invalid files
	SAY IDENTIFIED_DESC @99008
  END
  BUT_ONLY_IF_IT_CHANGES

COPY_EXISTING ~blun31.itm~ ~override~
  PATCH_IF (SOURCE_SIZE > 0x71) THEN BEGIN // protects against invalid files
	SAY IDENTIFIED_DESC @99009
  END
  BUT_ONLY_IF_IT_CHANGES

// S&S club
COPY_EXISTING ~a!thcl.itm~ ~override~
  PATCH_IF (SOURCE_SIZE > 0x71) THEN BEGIN // protects against invalid files
	SAY IDENTIFIED_DESC @99010
  END
  BUT_ONLY_IF_IT_CHANGES

[Rastamage]

I was going to do a couple of large posts but since you're back on the project I figured I'd share what work I've done over the night. Roughly in order:

Here's how I tried to rebalance the SotM with the ring and cloak added:
Ring - Improve spellcasting speed by two. Add 10 to dice roll on the wild surge chart. Memorize one extra spell of first, second, and seventh level.
Cloak - Immunity to death effects and energy drain. Cast Pierce Shield 3x day. Saving Throws:+1 bonus.
Bracers - Intelligence: +1 bonus. Memorize one extra spell of each level. Immunity to backstab. Requires 17 Intelligence.
Staff - (Unchanged) Armor Class: +2 bonus. Saving Throws: +2 bonus. Equipped Abilities: Invisibility, Immunity to Charm, Protection From Evil. Fireball-Lightning attack 3x a day. Spell Trap 1x a day. On each hit: Dispel Magic. +2 weapon bonus (strikes as a +5 weapon).
Boots - Improve spellcasting speed by one. Movement rate increased by 100%. Cast Improved Alacrity once a day.
Belt - Improve spellcasting speed by one. Armor Class: +3 bonus vs missile weapons. +15% Magic Resistance.
Helmet - Equipped Abilities: Vocalize, Infravision. Intelligence: +1 bonus. Mind Shield (Immune to Feeblemind, Dire Charm, etc.). Requires: 18 Intelligence.
Amulet - Improve spellcasting speed by two. Immune to Flesh to Stone. +1 to Save vs. Petrification/Polymorph. +1 to Save vs. Breath Weapons
Robe - Armor Class: 2. Magic Resistance: +25%. +3 to Save vs. Spells

How do you feel about another single point improvement in spellcasting speed modifier for the "set bonus?" I was going to add the question of "Usable by only single-class mages and sorcerers?" but it seems you answered that one in your last post.

Also, Rastamage, if it's hard to explain why all of these NPC's got the items I think a simple
"Firkie sat on the old owner of the bracers and felt something pointy, he looked and found some cool mage's bracers to add to his pile of treasure." would work fine.

Actually didn't one of the original flavor texts say Erevain made the items 200 years ago?

Robe of the Magi

This is the final piece of the seven-piece set created by Erevain Beraskána over two centuries ago,

If that were true, then Irenicus couldn't have had the item originally. He also couldn't have met Erevain before Erevain was a baelnorn or really old.

Also, why would Erevain want the items back if he gave them away on purpose? (maybe add a simple: No one was supposed to COLLECT all the items! to the dialogue.)

I actually have a pretty good (if I do say so myself) back story going. It isn't impossible for Irenicus to have gotten ahold of some of the SotM since he was an elf before he was the Exile and no real timetable was put forward. I explained this a little bit in an earlier post. The collecting of all the items is indeed how I envision the confrontation between Erevain and the PC. I can see now that I didn't make that clear in my dialogue so I'll make it crystal clear on the third draft.

However... since it seems I'm outvoted on the "evil act" and since you are the second person to mention Vithal the imprisoned mage in the Underdark I concede to the evil act and using Vithal since he's optional instead of Suneer in Suldanesselar. I'll console myself on the changes by remembering that this means I get the item earlier, lol.

[kevmus]

Oh, no, Tassadar! The items were already usable by sorcs and multi/dualclassed mages. I just updated the descriptions as I went along. Sorry to see you waste time there..

I've gotta go to summer school. Be back in 4 hours and 30 mins

Edited by kevmus, 04 June 2008 - 04:28 AM.