48 replies to this topic

[Kaeloree]

In IEP Banter we use EVALUATE_BUFFER, which allows us to add a check to the dialogues in a BGT install to ensure we're in the BGII portion of the game. It works almost exactly like a mod for TuTu and BGT, if you know that process. There's no need for duplicate files or other references.

[Ascension64]

I wonder why nobody has yet noticed that updating banter pack the proposed way will render it useless for all users who do not install BGT?

(My opinion on BGT, its lack of continuity, and the additional workload it introduces for modders you know).

Well, would you like to see more people using Banter Pack because it works correctly with BGT, or not?

[jcompton]

In IEP Banter we use EVALUATE_BUFFER, which allows us to add a check to the dialogues in a BGT install to ensure we're in the BGII portion of the game. It works almost exactly like a mod for TuTu and BGT, if you know that process. There's no need for duplicate files or other references.

Which I only have your (collective) word for, as I don't understand that code and lack the time and inclination to learn the underpinnings--seeing as how I do not particularly share your enthusiasm for BGT, it is of limited value to me. As Jastey accurately points out, my time to tweak and support mods has been constrained. Therefore, any screwing around I do with code I don't understand which may later turn out to be flawed is a poor use of that already limited time. This is true whether or not I'm the one plugging in your mystery code, because I'd rather keep the mod working for the people it already works for.

Again, the fact that BGT breaks other mods is not my doing. So I'd much rather stick with a working mod than trust that you're not going to (further) break mine.

[Bearwere]

jcompton, a modder such yourself could understand the code used in iep at the first glance. It doesn't even take one to look at the tutorial.

[cmorgan]

The same materials and functions that allow UB (a PPG hosted mod) work on both Tutu and BGT, the same concept that allows mods to be built on BG and Tutu (Jasteys Ajantis quests stuff, et al), the same stuff that allows Crossmod banter Pack to work at all, and the same stuff that allows BGT itself to work with dialog states, it is all the same type of code just worked around. Variablization of a single line of code to be included or not included based on install.

Or, simplified,

%myVariable%

IF BG2, %myVariable% = ~~

IF BGT, %myVariable% = ~GlobalGT("myVar","GLOBAL",1)~

The tp2 becomes COMPILE EVALUATE_BUFFER instead of COMPILE, so the real work is making sure that there are no typos or percentage signs or single tildes in the content, so things don't get messed up.

There is a tutorial on it at G3, but as JCompton said, he has had little time to investigate the code. If he does not want to use materials that he doesn't have time to check over, ok - individuals can follow the template.

I am available at JCompton's pleasure to retrofit the mod if he wishes, as is K'aeloree. I can post the code the way I did for Sirine's Call and the bigg's fix for Tutufix strings over at PPG if folks want to check the code, for him to recheck. (Actually, most modders around these days can do it for you - it takes little time and has several operating succesful usages, including any mod released as a combined Tutu/BGT installer). I will only post completed code if you say you want it, though, JCompton - you, SConrad, and CamDawg have placed a tremendous amount of enegry into keeping all three sites and communities working well together. I am not getting into messing with your personal coding of the Banter Pack unless you ok it.

Edited by cmorgan, 04 May 2008 - 11:14 AM.

[jastey]

As Jastey accurately points out, my time to tweak and support mods has been constrained.

Just to prevent this to become what following generations think about this: What I wrote is that you obviously don't give a damn that PPG mods turn into something players that are unexperienced in fixing bugs better leave their fingers off, because they are no longer supported. And I am not only talking about "BGT-players", for which PPG seems to have the consensus not to give any support at all. Sad!

Edited by jastey, 04 May 2008 - 01:01 PM.

[jcompton]

Which isn't actually relevant to this discussion, because Banter Packs work perfectly fine to the best of my knowledge on a standard BG2 install.

As to whether or not I "obviously don't give a damn", that's your opinion, lady.

[cmorgan]

OK, then, asked and answered - JCompton, please correct me if I am incorrrect on any of the given points:

• PPB Banter Pack is designed for BG2 only. BGT is not supported.
  
• The mod author/maintainer does not give permission for changes to be made to the existing package to support use on a BGT install for public distribution.
  
• The mod author/maintainer does not give permission for changes to be made to the existing package to create a stand-alone BGT version install for public distribution.
  
• The mod author/maintainer has been offered free coding services from SHS, G3, and PPG modders and contributers, and has declined those offers.

If I am correct in the above summation, Leomar, the answer is "no". I believe that was what JCompton said originally, before we all started jumping in with how it could be done.

The solution is to do one of the following:

• edit the files directly yourself for your own install and post the solutions like erebusant does for others to replicate on their own installs,
  
• add the Banter Pack after the end of BG content in BGT (which is frustrating, I know, because that means that the thing might have to be rebuilt in order to start new characters in BG content)
  
• drop the Banter Pack from BGT install lists.

Edited by cmorgan, 04 May 2008 - 06:28 PM.

[jastey]

jcompton: Not my "opinion", my impression. I am phrasing what I am phrasing out of the feeling of sadness, because I see PPG on a downfall concerning the quality of its mods. Not my problem, you might say, but I will neither install nor play (or even recommend) several PPG mods until I get the definite information that they got debugged. And from yesterday on there is another modder who can be added to the "doesn't care about compatibility" list.

[Ascension64]

jcompton: Not my "opinion", my impression. I am phrasing what I am phrasing out of the feeling of sadness, because I see PPG on a downfall concerning the quality of its mods. Not my problem, you might say, but I will neither install nor play (or even recommend) several PPG mods until I get the definite information that they got debugged. And from yesterday on there is another modder who can be added to the "doesn't care about compatibility" list.

I don't agree with the quality of PPG mods being low to any degree. My concern is a disinterest in making a hosted mod more readily accessible by players out there, perhaps due to an overly stringent one-man QA department.
Anyway, I'll just reiterate that compatibility with any other mod is not a requirement for any modder out there, and that making a mod compatible with another, while in both the modder's and players' best interests, is completely optional. So, if JC says no, then it's a no, folks.

The BGT compatibility list suggests installing Banter Pack after the BG1->BG2 transition if you intend on using it, so my advice for users of Banter Pack with BGT is what is mentioned there. Needless to say, the incorrect banter has been a documented issue, and the only way to get around is to work around it.

[jcompton]

Not my problem, you might say, but I will neither install nor play (or even recommend) several PPG mods until I get the definite information that they got debugged.

Well, that'll be very helpful. Far more helpful than sending me somebody energetic and eager to create fully fixed builds. Thanks for that.

And from yesterday on there is another modder who can be added to the "doesn't care about compatibility" list.

Thank you again. I'd say I've done my bit for king and country over the years. How soon they forget.

Bringing us back to the point that this is all BGT's fault, not mine. There's an awful lot of grandstanding going on in this thread considering that the fault lies entirely outside my mod. So if you'd like a confession, then here it is: you're right, generally I do not care about cleaning up other people's messes.

To invoke Westley Weimer, installing BGT is your funeral. Certainly nothing that's happened in this discussion has me eager to change my stance.

That said, in the firm and fervent hope that it may buy a small measure of peace, I have what alleges to be the right code from Kaeloree and if I can satisfy myself that it doesn't break the mod on proper BG2 installations, I'll release an update.

[Bearwere]

Bringing us back to the point that this is all BGT's fault, not mine. There's an awful lot of grandstanding going on in this thread considering that the fault lies entirely outside my mod. So if you'd like a confession, then here it is: you're right, generally I do not care about cleaning up other people's messes.

the point is that it isn't a fault at all, nobody's mess. It's just what BGT is about. There's no way to "fix" BGT so that Banter Pack as of its current version would work fine with it. The only way to make them compatible is to adjust Banter Pack. It's all about whether you want to make them compatible, or not.

[Leomar]

That said, in the firm and fervent hope that it may buy a small measure of peace, I have what alleges to be the right code from Kaeloree and if I can satisfy myself that it doesn't break the mod on proper BG2 installations, I'll release an update.

Thanks that your are looking into it.

The BGT compatibility list suggests installing Banter Pack after the BG1->BG2 transition if you intend on using it, so my advice for users of Banter Pack with BGT is what is mentioned there. Needless to say, the incorrect banter has been a documented issue, and the only way to get around is to work around it.

Ascension64 is right. That is what we do. At the moment we recommend "Banter Packs" to install after the BG1->BG2 transition. Is JCompton said he don't want to make an update, than we should accept his opinion and install "Banter Packs" like before.

Greetings Leomar

[Kalindor]

I'm glad that jcompton is looking into it, because it's ugly trying to explain to people who've never used WeiDU how to add a mod on the transition to bgII during a multiplayer session and then remove it when we start a new game. (Although this seems brainless to me.) They love those NPC's though, and always want Banter Packs installed in our games.

[Salk]

Well, I wouldn't think invoking WW's words about BGT is a fair thing to do today.

Much has changed (-> improved) since then and playing BGT-WeiDu can hardly become a funereal experience. Rather the opposite in fact.

Said that, it's good to read that JC intends to update Banter Pack to be compatible with BGT because it's certainly a good mod.

I can even understand jastey's stance though about compatibility and bugfixing policy. Like she said, it's just sad to see so much potential wasted and while I am nowhere capable of any modding contributions, I hope and wish JC and PPG to bring back the splendor of their best days. We know well that this is tightly related to a return to full modding activity of people like SimDing0, Andyr and Icelus.

[jcompton]

Well, I wouldn't think invoking WW's words about BGT is a fair thing to do today.

It wasn't his quote about BGT in particular, it's his favorite way to express "You can do something I think is a terrible idea, but don't come crying to me when it fails."

Much has changed (-> improved) since then and playing BGT-WeiDu can hardly become a funereal experience. Rather the opposite in fact.

Uh huh. It's so well-constructed that it munges one of the most straightforward mods in all creation. Tell me about it.

[Promilus]

@jcompton
I appreciate your job with modding, but there's a HUGE difference between BGT-WeiDU and classic BGT.
There are also much more BGT-WeiDU players than ever before...and I think if they want to play BGT+banterpack it would be a great idea to help them with that.

I hope you'll change your mind about that.

[Steve]

Wow, deja vu. There was a flamefest on G3 a while back with the topic "Is Improved Anvil worth playing?". Try to guess who is playing which role.

[jcompton]

I'm not sure, but in the cable TV movie, can I be played by John Cusack?

[Steve]

I would have made it be Ryan Reynolds.

Yes, I know that sounds like an insult, but at least you'll be able to do Scarlett Johansson.