22 replies to this topic

[Zyraen]

Anyone have any thoughts on this combo ? What would you like to see for a Cleric Thief Hidden Kit that would NOT be already done for Shadow Blade or Eldritch Phantom?

Or is it that like me, you're just irritated by the fact that a Cleric/Thief basically can't backstab? Anything else about the class Irritates you ? How would this class stand out, any core concepts to distinguish it in a role ?

Oh and please feel free to suggest names for it

Holy Thief? Temple Robber?

Edited by Zyraen, 25 April 2008 - 02:02 AM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Relic Hunter ? Templar's/Temples Dagger/Knife/Blade/Hook/Trapper.

By the way, you don't have to backstab with this Thief -> Cleric or Thief/Cleric. Why? Because of the harm spell.
But that's a completely it's own can of worms.

[Zyraen]

I think backstab is a good thing to have. That being said, maybe I could work something out with the Harm spell... > something is missing I think, if a Thief can't backstab.

Relic Hunter and Trapper seems a lot like a Find Traps person or Bounty Hunter style character that would be too close to an existing kit, I feel, would like something more unique in terms of roles.

Anyway, so far the thoughts I have on this guy is based on a discussion I had with Lord Ernie.

As a master of concealment and also of supposed divine discernment, I was thinking of taking them along the lines of
- concealment removal
- summoning stealing

So tentatively this is what I have thought about in mind

Veilbreaker -
special AoE spell that casts Invisibility Purge, similar to the radius of a True Sight. the same time every enemy in the area receives a 8 round Abjuration : Illusion, and Immunity to Effect : Invisibility that should effectively prevent them from using potions and stuff effectively.

Gatewarden -
another AoE that stays in effect for 8 rounds around the Cleric/Thief. during this period of time, all enemy-summoned Creatures, animals, undead, djinni, demons ALL included, are forcibly dominated for 1 round, no Saves allowed. effectively, the Cleric is "Stealing" the enemy Summons. when the spell expires all the creatures still in radius of the spell die instantly.

They also get a +3 Warhammer or Dagger (but using Warhammer proficiency), I haven't decided yet, that can be
- useable for backstab
- throwable

2 names I thought of was maybe Nightwatch, Nightwatcher or Nightlord. (since there's Stormlord and Morninglord... )

That's all I have so far, haven't thought of disadvantages. Any thoughts so far?

[Psycho Data]

Those spells sound useful, especially the gatewarden spell; I could see it shifting the tide of battle.

Veilbreaker would be a good way to put a dent in the defense of annoying mages!

[Zyraen]

After some discussion on MSN ( yes I chat about modding stuff best... ) tentatively we have

Nightlord / Nightwatcher (tentative name)

- Veilbreaker ability (useable once a day, extra use at level 16, 20, 24, 28 )
- +15 to Detect Illusions and Find Traps
- +3 Backstabbing Weapon that is Throwable (probably a Warhammer)
- Immunity to Backstab as a castable Cleric Spell

- -10 penalty to Max Hitpoints
- -3 AC penalty
- -3 Thac0 ; reduced to -1 Thac0 if using Divine Hammer

Edit : missed out Immunity Backstab Cleric spell. The Gatewarden ability has been put aside because it does not fit in well with the overall theme of the Class.

Edited by Zyraen, 26 April 2008 - 10:22 PM.

[Daulmakan]

Backstabbing with a hammer? Is that really necessary?

EDIT I'm an idiot. Forgot about the cleric bit.

Edited by Daulmakan, 26 April 2008 - 09:03 PM.

[Ming-Ming]

I for one would love to see a Cleric-Thief Hidden Kit implemented. I have played this combination several times, and I usually just make sure I use Club as a default weapon (because I can backstab with it) until I get to HLA Use Anything, upon which time it's all Katana for Celestial Fury!

I might recommend for flavor, basing the kit off the Kossuthan Blackflame Zealots or similar such secret cultist archetypes. Or the obvious Priest of Mask concept, given all the contact that CHARNAME has with the Shadow Thieves of Amn. But definitely this is a must have in my opinion!

[Zyraen]

Decided to try and bring this concept live hopeful all will be released (along with Conductor and Dragon Knight) with the next Hidden Kits update.

[Ming-Ming]

YAY! I had almost thought this might never see fruition, but I am happy and looking forward to the implementation! What 'concept' will you go for?

[Zyraen]

Probably following abils to be implemented as Cleric spells (not Innate) so they have to be memorised.
- Nightguard : level 3 spell - Protection from Backstab
- Nightwarden : level 4 spell - Not that powerful, prob just an instant-cast Dominate with no Save and bypassing Resist effective against any summoned creature. probably going to PWN liches
- Nightwatch : level 5 spell - previously known as Veilbreaker. AoE Invisibility Purge, the same time every enemy in the area receives a 4 round Abjuration : Illusion, and Immunity to Effect : Invisibility

Edited by Zyraen, 14 June 2010 - 01:49 AM.

[smoky tune]

As for me a multiclassed cleric-thief is the most powerful mellee-oriented thief combo after fighter-thief. Especially when it comes to backstabbing. Yes, backstabbing. Who told you he can't? Well, alright, clubs and quarterstaffs don't suit a "stab" conception actually, but game rules allow this. So why shouldn't we? This is the first thing to mention.
So far as it concerns backstabbing, strength is our best friend. Not only for thac0 bonus, but for additional damage as well. Say half-orcish cleric-thief with 19 str recieves +7 to damage, and what is most important, this bonus is applied before backstab multiplier. Thus in the very beginning of SoA such character with a simple dagger will hit for (1d4+7)*3=24-33 damage! This is the second.
Cleric-thief's modest offensive powers are very well compensated with divine magic.
Draw upon Holy Might, Holy Power, Champion's Strength will always come in handy.
But what grants a cleric-thief true power is the Righteous Magic spell. Along with a significant str bonus it makes all your hits deal maximum damage. That is really astounding. I'd even call it an early Assasination ability (5th lvl spell - 9th lvl cleric - only 450k (!) exp. needed). This is the third.
And to end up this munchkeen image we'll buy some underestimated weapon: Staff of Striking, which is noticable for +9 damage bonus for each hit.
Now let's count this up:
Say we have half-orcish cleric 11 - thief 13 (1,4kk exp) with 19 str and the Staff.
Righteous magic will give him additional 3 str - 22 total. That is +10 to damage.
(6+9+10)*5=75 with a single hit. Be sure to go invisible to repeat the trick if needed.
Of course this is not an ultimate solution and has its drawbacks:
Even with a thac0 bonus for attacking from invisible state one can miss. Fotrunately this doesn't happen often. On the other hand, where there're critical misses, there are also critical hits
Staff of Striking is a non-enchanted weapon which limits its application. Though it still will work for many enemies in SoA. Another thing about this weapon is that each strike consumes charges, which are limited. This is not a problem though if you use it only for backstabbing and you can always sell and re-buy it to prolong its usage.
As for ToB, there you'll continue your righteous with a glorious Staff of the Ram (as depicted).

Why am I writing all of this?
- Just to show that this combo is already incredibly powerful and needs no futher conversion IMO.

P.S. Writing this I imagined a futher cheesing such character with a recently released Multiclassed Multikit Mod. How do you feel like Priest of Lathander - Assassin multiclass with a x7 backstab multiplier and an additional attack from Boon of Lathander?

[Zyraen]

smoky tune :
you've successfully made it to my list of one of most favourite pple to talk to

[Ming-Ming]

I disagree with Smoky.

The half-orc cleric-thief would not be able to take the hidden kit because it's NOT dual classing. Yes, the Half-ORc is the ONLY race capable of being a cleric-thief milti-class from creation onset, but the plot and dialogue limitations quickly reduce the appeal. After all, most of us are not still playing BG2 after 20 years because of the power gaming but because we like the story, the plot, the romances, and the character interactions that new flavor and content create in terms of permutations. Personally I've always felt that it made sense for the Shadow Thieves to have had a possible offer for the PC since they work hand in hand through BG1 and 2. However in regards to your assertions of balance, the only way anyone could get to the ridiculous heights of cheese you mentioned is to 'cheat' with Shadow Keeper or similar tools, in which case they can 'cheat' the game anyhow. Balance is immaterial when examples begin to assume a degree of hacking and modding that essentially bypass all the standard rules. With regards to the Hidden Kits mod, I think that Zyrean has been making some pretty good kits and implementing them, and I have faith that we'd see a fair version of the cleric-thief from this project too.

Edited by Ming-Ming, 14 June 2010 - 12:27 PM.

[smoky tune]

The half-orc cleric-thief would not be able to take the hidden kit because it's NOT dual classing.

I haven't been talking of hidden kits. It was in reply to Zyraen's:
"Anyone have any thoughts on this combo?"

... but the plot and dialogue limitations quickly reduce the appeal.

What limitations are you talking about? What would such character miss?
And why can't the bhaalspawn be unintelligent evil half-orc willing only to kill anyone in his way to Bhaal's Throne and power?

[Zyraen]

@smoky :

Since the cleric/thief can backstab, what do you think of the following ?

Nightlord

- gains Nightwatcher, Nightwarden, Nightguard Cleric spells
- +15 to Detect Illusions and Find Traps
(screw the Divine Hammer)

- -10 penalty to Max Hitpoints
- -3 AC penalty
- -1 Backstab modifier

[smoky tune]

Since the cleric/thief can backstab, what do you think of the following?

Cleric-thieves CAN backstab with clubs and staffs. Perhaps you could deprive Nightlord of this ability manually.
IMO each feature of a given kit should be concluded from it's definition.
As far as I understood this Nightlord is a thief-hunter. Then okay, he's can protect from backstab, can detect illusions and find traps well. But what are the prerequisites for

- Nightwarden : ... an instant-cast Dominate with no Save and bypassing Resist effective against any summoned creature.

and

- -10 penalty to Max Hitpoints
- -3 AC penalty
- -1 Backstab modifier

?
Concering Nightwatch spell: isn't True Sight and Glitterdust enough?

[Zyraen]

Nightwarden is just a level 6 Cleric spell available to the Nightlord (pushing up all spell levels by 1). No pre-reqs there.

I had a discussion with a friend (who pointed out to me they are hardcoded to not be able to disarm traps and pick locks, and I got shellshocked for a while...), and I think I'll take your feedback as well on depriving them of this backstab ability.
That'll be a major drawback, so I'll try to code it as follows

Advantages
- Nightguard (level 4), Nightwatcher (level 5), Nightwarden (level 6) spells
- when stealthed, may KO a target, knocks them out for 4 rounds if successful (replacement for Backstab)
- +15 to Detect Illusions, Find Traps, every 5 levels
- (possibly) summon a Spirit Guide that is able Disarm Traps / Pick Locks, may not do anything else. Innate ability

Disadvantages
- may not Backstab
- may not Disarm Traps / Pick Locks

How does this look ?

PS : I tested Glitterdust. it doesn't stop Assassins from popping Invis and Backstabbing. True Sight doesn't do that either, and if they're hasted and nearby - they get revealed, GULP, and backstab you before the next TS refresh...

Edited by Zyraen, 16 June 2010 - 07:40 AM.

[Ming-Ming]

Hrmm.. doesn't seem worth it at this point. Those spells don't do anything to thrill me, so the trade-offs don't seem worthwhile. Maybe if you could explain to me why the benefits are better than just being a flat Cleric-Thief? I just don't get it?

@smoky :

Since the cleric/thief can backstab, what do you think of the following ?

Nightlord

- gains Nightwatcher, Nightwarden, Nightguard Cleric spells
- +15 to Detect Illusions and Find Traps
(screw the Divine Hammer)

- -10 penalty to Max Hitpoints
- -3 AC penalty
- -1 Backstab modifier

[Ming-Ming]

I'm not sure I "get" the concept you're going for with this Nightlord/Nightwarden? Where does it come from in source material?

To my mind, a cleric-thief as a concept would seem to fall more on enhancing the mix of divine and thief abilities, rather than adding new ingredients to the mix. A Priest of Mask, who is required in the source text to be a cleric with thief/rogue levels would seem to be the epitome of such a concept. Similarly the Blackflame Zealots who are cleric-rogue mixtures who worship Kossuth also embody this mix in terms of offensive melee and divine support. I'm scratching my head, trying to figure out what it is exactly that you're shooting for in terms of roleplaying 'concept' of the Realms, role in the party, and synergy of abilities that a Hidden Kit for the cleric-thief would provide? I keep thinking I am not seeing something that you are taking for granted, what am I missing here?

Edited by Ming-Ming, 17 June 2010 - 04:06 AM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Hrmm.. doesn't seem worth it at this point. Those spells don't do anything to thrill me, so the trade-offs don't seem worthwhile. Maybe if you could explain to me why the benefits are better than just being a flat Cleric-Thief? I just don't get it?

Sure you won't get it if you haven't tried one of the hidden kits, or understand the subtext, see they are a bit different, as one makes them differently...
They require a pure class character with a specific level requirement(it's level exceeding the 12 th level... so 13, 14 ... ) who then is dualed to the other requirement class and that needs to exceed the other classes level (so 14, 15 etc.), and then one also has to have the specified custom script running... if all the requirements are followed, the character gains a new kit from the custom scripts actions. There are some great benefits from this... like that your dualed character actually gets not just the active classes level up, but also the once he dualed from... so a mage that dualed to a thief at level 13, and then levels up to the 14th level as the thief while the script was running will receive the Eldritch Phantom kit... and all that comes with it... and when he then levels up further as the thief, it's mage class will also level up one level behind...

The Eldritch Phantom benefits according to an old thread like this:

All Hidden Kits have the following disadvantage to go along with the level increment of their "Inactive" Class
- Lose 30K XP for every 100K XP gained
- Upon Resting, lose 7K XP for every 5 levels gained, ie a level 17 Hidden Kit Character would lose 21K XP every rest (this value subject to change)
...
Eldritch Phantom (Mage => Thief)
Advantages
Obfuscation
- 1 use per day. gain 1 use at level 18, 23, 29, 36
- Magic Resistance set to 5%, with extra 5% at levels 15, 18, 21, 25, 29, 33, 37. lasts 6 hrs, undispellable
- Improved Invisibility, undispellable, lasts 6 hrs
- Invisibility, dispellable, lasts 6 hrs
- at level 21, gains Non-Detection effect, lasts 2 hrs
Disadvantages
- takes 30% extra Damage from Missile attacks except when Obfuscation is in effect