22 replies to this topic

[Clarion]

Looking at my plans to create the Lonnie and Talasphir mod, I noticed something glaringly obvious.

I'm an idiot.

Two romanceable NPC's with all the dialogue trappings I have in mind for them, and I'm not even a modder yet. They're a bit ambitious for me to cut my teeth on. In the meantime, I thought up a character to learn modding on. At least, when I've got the proper technology. A fully functioning computer helps.

Meet Andante Legato Maestoso, human, male, sorcerer, non-romanceable, Lawful Evil, and possibly the only evil character that will only leave if your party's reputation gets too LOW. He dislikes unsophistocated gutter trash who think they have to prove to the world that they're the evilist bastards that ever did walk Faerun, after all.

STR: 10, DEX: 15, CON: 11, INT: 18, WIS: 14, CHA: 15 (His stats are flexible. I realize they may seem too high, but he has no special abilities and no special items, as well as no real quest aside from giving the Cowlies hell, and you're planning to do that anyway)

HISTORY
When asked about his history, ANDANTE gives you an appraising look and apparently decides you're worth his time. He explains that he is the bastard son of an Amnish noblewoman who wanted nothing to do with him and a traveling bard who was also too self-involved to care for him beyond giving him his musical name. Andante also tells you that his uncle has been grooming him to become a Cowled Wizard, though he wants nothing to do with them. The Cowled Ones have balked at the idea besides - this sorcerer is not easily manipulated, and therefore too dangerous to be trusted. He directs another evaluating stare your way as if to ask, do *you* trust him?

*

Andante Maestoso is not particularly picky about who he travels with, so long as he is treated with some sort of respect. If he is being lauded as a hero beside Charname, he's not getting thrown in jail or worse. Though he is evil, a high rep won't bother him in the slightest. As stated before though, if he feels that Charname is unsophisticated gutter trash trying too hard to prove their ebilness, he will leave, and he will not be back.

There is no romance planned for him. However, there will be chats on the nature of morality. Rather, Andante will talk about how contrived he thinks the concepts of morality truly are, and you can try vainly to argue your case if you so choose.

There aren't that many evil Bioware characters. Four, if I remember correctly, two of them redeemable, all of them trying so hard to prove their evil intent that it feels contrived and insincere to me. Why can't evil be subtle, charming? Why can't evil characters do the right thing for the sake of not drawing undue attention to themselves, or appreciate that having a high reputation makes it easier to manipulate people? Andante is a long-thinker, a strategist, a tactician, and definitely not a guy you want to be playing chess against. He knows that randomly killing people for the sake of being evil is likely to get him killed by someone of authority who happens to be stronger than he is. He also hates getting his hands dirty (Eh, figuratively. He has no problem with travel dirt from adventuring, but he's no murderer. Too classy to be an outright murderer).

Oddly enough, the Bioware characters he's likely to be most fond of are Imoen, Jaheira, Mazzy, Valygar, and Cernd. The ones he'd like to see hanged by the neck until dead are Edwin, Korgan, Sarevok, Keldorn, and Haer'Dalis. Everyone else is just annoying to varrying degrees.

And I know there's that guy on Brynnlaw named Andante. My Andante might comment on how it's entirely possible that they just happen to have the same name. No relation at all. I named the poor fellow a bunch of musical terms that seem to fit his personality.

So, this is Andante, whom I will commence working on once there is a computer available to me with all of the proper stuff on it. Maybe if I ever introduce my laptop to the internet... Feel free to comment. It's why I'm even mentioning this bastard after all

[Azkyroth]

...we are going to have a lovely time with the crossmod banter. :3

(Why is that always my first thought? x.x)

[Clarion]

Bring it on, I dare ye! I'll also politely request, and humbly beg. Whatever suits your fancy.

ANDANTE: So long as who I'm required to banter with is not of sub-fungal intellect like that obnoxious dwarf, I shall be pleased to oblige. I have nothing against conversation, after all. Just...Clarion, please promise me you do not have some contrived romance with Imoen or some such up your sleeve.

CLARION: Hah! Knew what I was thinking, did you? No. Friendship, no romance, I promise. But I will tell Imoen you're ticklish if you misbehave

[Tempest]

Xarana: I'm unimpressed-another vainglorious idiot who fall ill and die within the week if left in the wild with nothing to aid him. And yet another person to like or love Imoen... that girl needs to be sterilized.

Darian: I concur, and he sounds more chaotic neutral than anything else-an unpleasant, elitist character is by no means evil.

Xarana: Agreed. One in this very room, for example, is lawful good.

Tempest: Clarion, I wouldn't apply an alignment until after you've fully designed the character. Characters designed from the ground up to be evil tend to feel more forced than anything else-see Viconia. Remember that most truly sociopathic people, in the purest expression of the term, are actually true neutral-a true sociopath has no conception of right and wrong, good and evil. Others may dislike him and consider him evil by their world view, but I would think long and hard before labeling this character "evil" until you truly know him and know who and what he is.

[Clarion]

Tempest, I respect you, but please don't lecture me on sociopathy. I *am* a sociopath, I understand what it means.

And Andante is not supposed to be a sociopath. And he can't be Chaotic anything...he hates chaos. Despises it. Which is why he might come to some fatal conflict with Korgan, one of the few people he'd actually dirty his hands to personally murder. Most of the people he'd likely almost get along with, he'd almost get along with because they are mostly respectful and quite tidy. Imoen is a special case. She'd likely force her way under his skin and inadvertantly *make* him like her. She would take his tidily defined little world and toss it upside-down.

ANDANTE: Clarion, if I may respectfully request to speak for myself? Xarana, it would suit your continued existence far better to close your mouth. Otherwise, some of us might consider you to be...I'll continue this later. Right now I have more pressing engagements.

[Tempest]

I'm still unconvinced that evil is the best alignment for this guy, but as he's only an idea at the moment, that's fine. All characters evolve.

Xarana: Consider me to be what? If you are going to threaten me, do so. If you are going to bluster and drone like an idiot paladin or ranger, do so away from me. Or if you are going to actually attack me, one more sacrifice to Auril will please my goddess.

[Azkyroth]

Bring it on, I dare ye! I'll also politely request, and humbly beg. Whatever suits your fancy.

ANDANTE: So long as who I'm required to banter with is not of sub-fungal intellect like that obnoxious dwarf, I shall be pleased to oblige.

ARKALIAN: Hmm. So, it's *myconids* I should feed him to if he gets on my nerves. Good to know.

ANDANTE: Clarion, if I may respectfully request to speak for myself? Xarana, it would suit your continued existence far better to close your mouth. Otherwise, some of us might consider you to be...I'll continue this later. Right now I have more pressing engagements.

ARKALIAN: Wait, some of us already consider her expendable. And most of the other words that come to mind, for that matter. "Lunch," perhaps? Or am I jumping to conclusions?

[Miss Sakaki]

I like the sound of him, and I'd definitely have him in my party. He sounds entertainingly grumpy, self-centred and generally fun to play with, and the Cowled Wizard connection sounds interesting too. What kinds of things would he do/discuss ingame to show his evilness? From your description I think I would have had him pegged as Neutral.

[Clarion]

Sorry to have cut out so early...I got the notice that my internet was about to go away. Right now I'm borrowing a friend's comp 'cause I don't have internet at home.

I also would like to apologize for being a total ass. Having a bad day is no excuse for being a b****.

A bit more about Andante's beliefs... He thinks that there is no such thing as morality. We're all evil at heart, even paladins. We do the right thing out of fear of some kind of reprisal. A god's wrath, an afterlife in hell, execution, a stay in jail... He thinks he's just less hypocritical than the paladins who proclaim to be paradigms of holy goodness. He freely admits that he's a self-serving bastard who obeys laws to avoid the inconvenience of a jail stay or public burning.

He has been raised in a noble household (despite being bastard-born) and therefore likes courtesy. He is likely to get along with Mazzy better than Edwin, for example, because Mazzy is polite. And he despises Edwin. He thinks Edwin is...

ANDANTE: Edwin might mayhap be considered superficially intelligent, but he has the common sense and foresight of a drowned rat. And he works so very, *very* hard to prove what a truly evil man he is. Pfeh. Imbecile. I have nothing to prove, except that I am not a man to be trifled with, and this I need only prove to the Cowled Wizards. Xarana, you are a pathetic little girl who could not cope with the way the world works. Are you truly so weak you need rely on Auril to hold your hand? Arkalian, you seem...interesting. I would need further study to formulate a proper opinion of you.

CLARION: Just a ray of sunshine today, aren't you?

ANDANTE: Oh do shut up. Clarion, you must by now realize that I think of little of you as of Edwin. You epitomize chaos, you are slovenly, disorganized, weak-willed, and as socially inept as Korgan.

CLARION: Hey! I shan't contest the disorganized part, or the chaotic part, but you're really taking me out of context.

ANDANTE: Oh? Are you to say, even after studying your last comment to Tempest, that you are not quite as socially inept as Korgan? Well, point ceded. You are as socially inept as Keldorn. You do not have quite the pungeant stench required to be as socially inept as Korgan.

CLARION: So much for courtesy.

ANDANTE: You lost that privilege. You do not have the luxury of my respect. I do not regard unsophisticated trash with any courtesy. This you should know. (smirk) You created me, after all.

CLARION: And I'm regretting doing so. Well, I think we've established that you're courteous until you become an ass. Now, to have your banters show the more pragmatic tactitian side of your personality... Because I suspect that when people really get a taste of you, your tactical thinking may be the only redeeming quality you have, and the only reason for anyone to keep you alive, aside from, of course, the fact that you're a sorcerer.

Eh, long post, but I haven't been active in a while and I won't be for another long while, until we get the net fixed at home. Internet is hard to come by these days, it seems.

[Tempest]

Tempest: Sorry to hear about your internet problems, but I still think he sounds more neutral than evil.

Xarana: And are you so weak you need hide behind petty words and provocations? You are like every other product of civilization-a delusional fool who thinks mere words mean anything. When your home falls, when your precious civilization is reduced to dust, what will you do in the face of nature's fury? Laugh in its face, claim it is weak? I am here. I am ready to feed your corpse to the earth.

Darian: Your petty claims do not concern me. I've seen you idiot humans proclaim their superiority since before you were born, N'Tel'Quess, and I am not impressed. Now leave me be while I attend to matters worthy of my attention.

Edited by Tempest, 15 March 2008 - 12:24 PM.

[Azkyroth]

Tempest:

A bit more about Andante's beliefs... He thinks that there is no such thing as morality. We're all evil at heart, even paladins. We do the right thing out of fear of some kind of reprisal. A god's wrath, an afterlife in hell, execution, a stay in jail... He thinks he's just less hypocritical than the paladins who proclaim to be paradigms of holy goodness. He freely admits that he's a self-serving bastard who obeys laws to avoid the inconvenience of a jail stay or public burning.

I don't know, I've met people with essentially the same view of life and other humans described above and they've definitely impressed me as "evil" (the frequent commenter "Christopher" on Daylight Atheism comes to mind, and he's explicitly affirmed the above to be his viewpoint).

[theacefes]

Wait, so you're not evil?

[Tempest]

A bit more about Andante's beliefs... He thinks that there is no such thing as morality. We're all evil at heart, even paladins. We do the right thing out of fear of some kind of reprisal. A god's wrath, an afterlife in hell, execution, a stay in jail... He thinks he's just less hypocritical than the paladins who proclaim to be paradigms of holy goodness. He freely admits that he's a self-serving bastard who obeys laws to avoid the inconvenience of a jail stay or public burning.

Again, this sounds far more like True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral than any sort of evil. Unpleasant and selfish? Yes. Is he actually malicious and out to further his own ends at the expense of others? Definitely doesn't sound like it. Interesting philisophical standpoint, but Clarion, I don't think you're really grasping the difference between unpleasant/self-centered and evil. To people like Azzy, being self-centered *is* evil. DnD isn't quite that simple. To the most judgemental of people, anyone who does not agree with them 100% is evil. Others are less judgemental. But we're talking alignment in DnD terms. Does this guy deliberately intend to cause harm, physical, emotional, mental, or even economic to others, either directly, or as a result of his own machinations?

Your own comment:

Tempest, I respect you, but please don't lecture me on sociopathy. I *am* a sociopath, I understand what it means

Your very denial proves you don't. To a genuine sociopath, the very ideas of a right sort of behavior and a wrong sort have no meaning. If you're at all capable of acknowledging that something is wrong, or that something is even *right*, then you are not a true sociopath. Andante is no sociopath. Amoral, perhaps, but not sociopathic.

[Azkyroth]

Again, this sounds far more like True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral than any sort of evil. Unpleasant and selfish? Yes. Is he actually malicious and out to further his own ends at the expense of others? Definitely doesn't sound like it. Interesting philisophical standpoint, but Clarion, I don't think you're really grasping the difference between unpleasant/self-centered and evil. To people like Azzy, being self-centered *is* evil. DnD isn't quite that simple. To the most judgemental of people, anyone who does not agree with them 100% is evil. Others are less judgemental. But we're talking alignment in DnD terms. Does this guy deliberately intend to cause harm, physical, emotional, mental, or even economic to others, either directly, or as a result of his own machinations?

This is the first I've heard of a conceptualization of "evil" in D&D that excludes reckless disregard for the effects of one's actions on the lives of others, up to and including killing them.

[Tempest]

If this character is deliberately avoiding breaking laws that would result in severe consequences, then he does not express such reckless disregard. "Not caring" about the welfare of others is not the same as "intending harm if it promotes his own welfare". Not everyone is a saint, and not everyone is a devil incarnate. It's quite possible for even a good character to be so self-centered that they do not care about the welfare of others-misguided, perhaps, and certainly not the most classic image of the alignment, but far from evil, and committed to good. If you must classify this character as evil from what we've seen of him, then his "evil" alignment is flimsier and shallower than even Viconia.

[Solar's Harper]

The 9 Alignments are flexible as one can be it seems, even a 'good' character would possibly wantingly ignore the beggar on the streets just to pursue a 'evil-doer' that he/she seeks. Also to that point which would the "person" see as more to their nature? Lawful Neutral Anomen is more concerned about the law for example rather than remaining neutral in his judgements - likewise with Edwin who has a superiority complex yet doesn't go out of his way to promote his evil part of the Lawful Evil alignment.

A person's views may always coincide with that of the society they work in, one person's idea of being 'good' may be very different to another person's, who may see the act as 'evil'.

I'd say just continue along with your character as you see fit for the time being Clarion, as has been pointed out numerous times in the thread already, evolution of the NPC would eventually straighten out where this one fits on the alignment scheme, and hey, it's a pretty small issue compared to the larger section of the mod in the long run isn't it?

[Azkyroth]

If this character is deliberately avoiding breaking laws that would result in severe consequences, then he does not express such reckless disregard. "Not caring" about the welfare of others is not the same as "intending harm if it promotes his own welfare". Not everyone is a saint, and not everyone is a devil incarnate. It's quite possible for even a good character to be so self-centered that they do not care about the welfare of others-misguided, perhaps, and certainly not the most classic image of the alignment, but far from evil, and committed to good. If you must classify this character as evil from what we've seen of him, then his "evil" alignment is flimsier and shallower than even Viconia.

This description seems to exclude the possibility of "lawful evil," which I think fits Andante as described perfectly.

[Tempest]

To the contrary-Andante seems to have no regard for the law at all, besides staying out of severe criminal trouble, which is much more pragmatism than evil. A lawful evil character is, like most evil characters, usually about promoting his own welfare at the expense of others-he simply either follows his own strict code of conduct, or scrupulously follows the letter of the law, while bending it as far as he can. A lawful evil merchant would seek to promote his own business' affairs at the expense of competitors, and do so actively-perhaps sabotaging or slandering his rivals, possibly trying to blackmail them, or even hire an assassination-it is manifestly clear that he not only cares about his own welfare above all else, but actively attempts to harm the welfare of anyone who would pose a threat or compete with him. Taking this to its logical conclusion, such a merchant might perhaps use shady contacts if they are able to supply him with what he needs, or even practice slavery-which is quite legal in parts of Faerun.

[Clarion]

(Internet back, for time being. Would not count on it lasting long.)

My personal degree of antisocial personality disorder is irrelevant to the situation. I'm bored with it, trying to change it for the sake of something interesting, not for any particular moral cause.

ANDANTE: Tempest, would you happen to know how entertaining it is to blackmail the majority of influential people in Athkatla? I ask, because you strike me as being sorely in need of some good entertainment.

CLARION: Wow, your mood's gotten better.

ANDANTE: Hmm, mayhap. Watching pureblood nobles squirm is a hobby of mine, I suppose. It does wonders for my mood. (chuckle) Of course, it pays to have potentially embarrassing material on Aran Linvail and Renal the Bloodscalp - which ensures my safety from Shadow Thief assassination - magically sealed away to become apparent to all the wrong people should I die...violently. Ah, people are debating my ethics then? How very amusing.

Tell the whimpering Aurilite and the stuffed pigeon that for them I would make an exception to my rule of never getting my hands dirty - if they come near me I shall personally shove fireballs down their throats for the sake of seeing what will happen. Will they explode, or just crumble? I have always been curious to know.

This outside of city limits, of course. Burned bodies are disgusting beyond measure and I *loathe* trying to get blood out of fabrics.

Oh, dear, good job. You have succeeded in reducing me to Edwin's level. Well played. I let my emotions get the better of me, a mistake I shall endeavor not to make again.

I like the law because it is lawful, and orderly. It reigns in the disgusting chaos of humanity at large. And the laws of Athkatla, well, one need not even bend them to work them to his own benefit. As long as one keeps their magical workings out of the streets, there is nothing one cannot do and get away with, short of homicide in the middle of the street.

And there is no such thing as good, or neutral, you naive, infantile imbeciles. Have I not said before that we are all inherently evil? Or am I simply the only honest man in the world?

CLARION: Okay, that monologue was taking it a bit far, Dante. If they want to believe in the difference...never mind. Arguing with you is worse than trying to argue with Diriel from the IWD2 NPC project. At least he lives for a cause. You? You're out for yourself.

ANDANTE: Oh, but of course. Even my future journey with Charname is in the interest of my continued survival, and I make no secret of this. If I wish to strike at the heart of the Cowled Wizards for what they did to me, *and* survive their reprisal as well, I need powerful allies. A Bhaalspawn should be sufficient. Just so long as they are not one of those Chaotic fools.

CLARION: Why would a chaotic bhaalspawn want an OCD sorcerer?

ANDANTE: You create me, you must live with the consequences. Now tidy up your desk, you slovenly vagabond. How do you find anything in that maelstrom?

CLARION: With Tymora's blessing. Now, Tempest, Andante was never meant to be a sociopath. If I wanted to make a real socio, I'd have modeled him after myself. No true emotional capacity beyond social camoflauge. Nothing. An empty, flat, two-dimensional Lawful Neutral bore too broken to even get properly angry when prodded with a sharp stick. Or rather, going from 0 to 7280 in five seconds, from empty to a blind, destructive, pseudo-rage with no real emotional inflection. Andante tries to remain clinically detached, but he's emotional, and he cares about things. He cares about himself, he cares about keeping things tidy, he cares about proving to the Cowled Wizards that they're not as all-powerful as they think they are, and eventually, someone might force him to unwillingly care about the wellfare of other people. Imoen + big hammer = an attempt at making Andante open his opinionated eyes a little.

Andante is a man who, below the surface, loves riddles, plays cello with an astonishing degree of skill, likes to read history books, and contemplates what will ultimately make him happy. Of course, with his view of the world, he won't ever *be* happy, but he can try. On the surface, he's a bastard in every sense of the word who takes pleasure in making people squirm, who is rumored to have poisoned his own mother, and is blackmailing everyone that benefits him to do so.

Andante is meant to be two things: an onion, and a cockroach. An onion because you find something new every time you peel away a layer(and he can make a grown man cry, but that's beside the point), and a cockroach because you can poison him, squish him, set him on fire, lop off his head, and bury him alive, and somehow, he always comes back to haunt you. (Rather like some of the canon wizards, no? Doesn't the dialogue for Xzar and Edwin include, "Didn't I kill you?")

[Tempest]

Tempest: Whether you personally believe people are innately good or evil is irrelevant when determining your alignment. Some good-aligned people believe everyone to be inherently evil, too-they simply try to rise above it. I still see no evidence of a truly evil personality here-a very unpleasant one, to be certain, but not evil. Also, having blackmail information on Bloodscap and Aran Linvail brings with it strong echoes of Gary Stu-these are the Shadow Thieves, and unless Andante is connected to the Shadow Thieves as well, or another powerful organization, I can't see the Thieves letting him run loose with such information, unless they simply laugh at him and don't regard him as a threat.

Clarion, you continue to not understand what a sociopath is-review my earlier explanation more thoroughly. And if Andante is as evil and manipulative as you say, I can't see him being that affected by Imoen. He has strong echoes of Gary Stu, and Lawful Neutral sounds like the best alignment for him, especially given how you say Imoen might affect him. Really, he sounds like Viconia-he wants to be evil, tries hard to be evil, but never really gets there.

Xarana: *Steps forward* I am personally near you, idiot. Your idle threats are becoming rather entertaining-you see, in nature, many animals try to make themselves seem larger and more threatening than they are when they perceive a threat to themselves-a cat's threat display, a bird puffing it's feathers, lizards with their neck pouches, even and especially pufferfish in the sea. Some predators are deterred by their prey's bluff, but some, who have both knowledge and wisdom-qualities you apparently lack-are not fooled. You can no more bluff nature than you can evade winter's grasp.

Darian: 'Stuffed pigeon'? N'Tel'Quess, whatever strengths you think you have, it is clear that creativity does not number among them.