32 replies to this topic

[Zyraen]

Updated 19 Mar 2008 - see this post http://www.shsforums...mp;#entry381908

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I was just wandering about one of my old boards when I spied one of the interesting ideas that I had a long long long long time ago, back before BTL completed lol.

Of course, it might not have an audience anymore, but its premise was quite simple.

Basically, it introduces what I call "Hidden Kits" to the game, by automatically applying Kits to the PC(s) (and possibly NPCs) when they Dual Class in certain fashions. Although some of the multi-classed NPCs can also be modified to have these kits, if so wished, it was something that I felt could really change the way we played BG2

The ones I had out at the time was

Archmage (Cleric/Mage)
Eldritch Phantom (Thief/Mage)
Shadow Blade (Thief/Fighter)
Warrior Mage (Fighter/Mage)
Sylvan Elite (Mage/Ranger)
Prelate (Cleric/Fighter)

Basically, they come about when you
1) Dual Class from one class to another at a particular level (or higher)
2) Level up the 2nd Class so that it exceeds the 1st

At this point, you get the special "hidden" kit, and gain some unique abils, kick ass, lol, usual stuff. Your Inactive Class also henceforth levels up everytime you level up (those who have played the Reaver Kit before know what I mean).

Thoughts?

Edited by Zyraen, 19 March 2008 - 06:33 PM.

[Zyraen]

Here's an example I did up previously (with thanks to the person who offered input on this one in the past, you know who you are

Shadow Blade
Fighter xx => Thief

These thieves are the muscle among the others, and unlike others have the capacity and strength to stand up to the punishment they may receive, and are quick to escape from the thick of things. Even after being revealed, they are more of a threat to be dealt with as they were before.

- Bonuses
Fighter Class levels at 2 levels under Thief
4 stars in Melee Weapon of choice
2 stars in Weapon Style of choice
Backstab up to x6 damage
+1 Movement Rate

- Drawbacks
10 points to distribute among Thief Skills

Edited by Zyraen, 26 February 2008 - 01:45 AM.

[Zyraen]

Warrior-Mage
Alternative Names : Arcane Steel
Mage xx => Fighter

Among the magic there are none so dangerous as those who have departed from arcane arts and mastered the blade, before returning to further their endeavours in the magical arena. These masters of might and magic are truly a force to be dealt with in their time upon the field, and are ever to be feared for their unequalled prowess in both arenas.

- Bonuses
Mage Class levels at 1 level under Fighter
4 stars in Weapon of choice
3 stars in Weapon of choice
Spirit Armor 2/day, +1/day every 4 levels

- Drawbacks
Some Experience lost every level up

[Zyraen]

Some of these kits can also be applied to NPCs, that was the prior discussion meant to change the Playing Style of BG2 because Kit mods often affect only the PC, but these Hidden Kits can also be applied, perhaps the following way...

Archmage (Cleric/Mage) - Aerie. who else?
Eldritch Phantom (Thief/Mage) - Jan / Imoen (maybe Nalia?)
Shadow Blade (Thief/Fighter) - Yoshimo
Prelate (Cleric/Fighter) - Anomen (maybe even Viconia? she certainly seems fighterish to me...)

There was another weird Kit I called Dragon Knight, an upgrade for Paladin (since Paladins can't dual) but that's really another can of worms by itself, lol. It would have to be applied to Keldorn I guess, though he probably doesn't have the acumen to see the Quest through (pretty hard... at least in the original concept)

[Jarno Mikkola]

Thoughts?

Well, as long as you make all the kit's optional it the WeiDU install, and that the character doesn't already have a kit, when he duals to the new class and levels up to get her abilities back. As it is over powered to have a 20th level Kensai dual, to a Thief which then becomes Shadow Blade at level 21(uh, and his name is Sarevok ).

[Tassadar88]

Sounds very interesting, a thing I would definitely try out.

[Riviera]

Sounds very interesting, a thing I would definitely try out.

Same here. Although it does sort of make my usual multi-classes less interesting. XD

[Kaeloree]

I'd definitely try this out.

One other idea, somewhat similar to this, would be to have prestige classes--go to a certain person to train to become a Shadowdancer, for example, or go to another person to become an arcane archer.

[Eric P.]

I'd definitely try this out.

One other idea, somewhat similar to this, would be to have prestige classes--go to a certain person to train to become a Shadowdancer, for example, or go to another person to become an arcane archer.

That would totally rock!!!

My first thought about this concept is that it might be unbalancing. Allowing Humans to multiclass is breaking the game rules, though I enjoy thumbing my nose at said rules It should be enough that the character regains use of the "inactive class" features when the new class level exceeds the old. However, in the spirit of this mod concept, additional features are most welcome. Perhaps an alternate advancement track would be good for the "inactive class." That way, both classes continue to advance, but the old class would advance more slowly. Just a thought there.

I would rename some of the kits, but that's just me. More importantly, I'd like to see the Sylvan Elite worked up with a druid/ranger combo, rather than a mage/ranger combo...or simply a mod that lets a character be a druid/ranger (I don't see that this is possible with the vanilla game, even with NearInfinity).

Cheers,
Eric

[Jarno Mikkola]

or simply a mod that lets a character be a druid/ranger (I don't see that this is possible with the vanilla game, even with NearInfinity).

The thing here is, you can't have both druid and ranger. So you'll have to either choose, or make a druid kit that has the rangers fighting abilities(thaco progression), but lacks in some other areas. What those areas might be? Any suggestions?
-Polymorph?
-Spells? Well, all I can say is you'll have hard time doing it and still not over powering the kit too much?
-Fighting ability? Why make him a ranger/druid then.
-Do they have anything else; armor, that's old over used and doesn't balance the kit at all. Casting time, that could be some sort of option. Hiding ability, wouldn't even suggest to put it in, in the first place. Something else, if you come up with anything, let us know!

Just a reminder, all these kit's need their own HLA tables, so to make them to have a little character, so make them count! Don't just copy paste the original mage tables, or such.

[Zyraen]

the character doesn't already have a kit

Yep all these will be done for Kitless Characters / for Biowares that already have a Kit, it will be removed.

Perhaps an alternate advancement track would be good for the "inactive class." That way, both classes continue to advance, but the old class would advance more slowly. Just a thought there.

I was thinking of scripted XP Penalties programmed into the Class

More importantly, I'd like to see the Sylvan Elite worked up with a druid/ranger combo, rather than a mage/ranger combo...or simply a mod that lets a character be a druid/ranger (I don't see that this is possible with the vanilla game, even with NearInfinity).

Practically impossible I'm afraid. If it doesn't exist as Vanilla BG2 Multi-Class, it can't be done.

or make a druid kit that has the rangers fighting abilities(thaco progression), but lacks in some other areas.

I'm sorry ^^;; I don't really have much interest in normal Kits, there's 1001 Kit mods already out there. Mine is more for the interest of
1) Getting a "Surprise" Kit and flexing your muscles with it
2) Advancing 2 Classes at the same time thereafter, albeit with a XP Penalty (ie at a slower rate)
They don't have very extreme bonuses, its just the "kick" you get off and how they change the way established Bioware NPCs play.
A selection of "extra" Proficiency Points to grow in, some bonuses here and there, and Innate Abilities (like Spirit Armor for eg) that allow them to hopefully perform functions of both their Classes with fewer issues.

all these kit's need their own HLA tables, so to make them to have a little character, so make them count! Don't just copy paste the original mage tables, or such.

Sorry to disappoint ^^;; but since they're not full blown Kits on their own (though they each require more work than a normal kit) my plan is simply to use the Multi-classed Kit Table. However I will check for some missing abilities (for eg. Mage/Thief HLA listing misses some Mage abils... I think)

If you find Vanilla BG2 easy, then you can always Increase the Difficulty Levels of the game while playing these Kits.

Edited by Zyraen, 01 March 2008 - 06:42 AM.

[Zyraen]

OK, I guess I've more or less decided to work with Hidden Kits for a while, while trying to make progress on the Silmarillion's Engine.

It should be fairly simple to implement, given the experience with the Reaver, which uses a similar concept.

Sylvan Elite has been replaced by Sylvan Warden (Fighter-> Druid) if it can be done (should be possible)

Affected NPCs tentatively would be about 10.
Not everyone will agree with the Assignments so each and every NPC is an optional part of Installation.
However there will be a shortcut to install all the Kits if the person so wishes.

Prelate - Anomen, Mazzy, Viconia
Shadow Blade - Yoshimo, Korgan
Eldritch Blade - Jan, Imoen
Sylvan Warden - Jaheira
Archmage - Aerie
Warrior-Mage - Sarevok (ToB)

Unlike the PC, who can automatically gain the Kit if he meets the requirements of the Dual Classing, the NPCs will only gain the Kit ON certain specific conditions being met, such as completing a certain Quest when the NPC is above level x.

Due to the extensive effect of this, if all 10 NPC Changes are installed it will likely greatly affect the gameplay, especially as dualled characters play very differently from their default classes.

Tentatively, you will need to have a New Game to have the NPC of the right Class. Alternatively, you must never have met the NPC before in your game for this to have effect.

Edited by Zyraen, 07 March 2008 - 10:22 AM.

[Zyraen]

@Guest
Yeah I do kinda agree, it might sound lame to most. Not to me though I think a name switch as you suggested is a good idea.
Anyway, Battle Mage sounds to me more like a Mage ^^;; I was thinking SpellSword, or Spell-Blade (don't like Arcane Steel that much now...) maybe Spell Steel.

PS : Would like to thank Eric P for the idea of switching Sylvan Elite to a Druid combo.

[Zyraen]

Progress been made on this one (and almost none on Elvan's Intrigues... this note to Tassadar88)

While I still plan to have proficiency bonuses, I will drop them if it proves troublesome to implement.
I will not mention them below, since they will only be icing on the cake, I think, compared with the "main" abilities of the Class.

All Hidden Kits have the following disadvantage to go along with the level increment of their "Inactive" Class
- Lose 30K XP for every 100K XP gained
- Upon Resting, lose 7K XP for every 5 levels gained, ie a level 17 Hidden Kit Character would lose 21K XP every rest (this value subject to change)

==============

Spell Steel (Mage => Fighter)
Advantages
Arcane Armor :
- 1 use per day. gain 1 use at level 16, 22, 28, 35
- lasts 12 hrs, undispellable
- sets AC to 1, with additional +1 AC bonus at level 16, 20, 25, 31
- drains 1d5 Life every hour unless a successful Save vs Spells is made
- at level 18, provides -1 to casting Speed while active
Disadvantages
- +1 Casting Speed, -2 AC and -2 Thac0 whenever Arcane Armor is not active

===============

Sylvan Warden (Fighter => Druid)
Advantages
- additional HLAs, can choose 1 of the following 3 Specialisations : Melee or Missile or Druidic Magic.
- Melee Specialisation gains +2 Thac0 and +65% Damage in Melee, but also receives penalties of -3 Thac0 and -75% damage in Missile
- Missile Specialisation gains +1 Thac0 and +65% Damage in Missile, but also receives penalties of -3 Thac0 and -75% damage in Missile, plus an additional 30% damage taken from Melee attacks
- Druidic Magic Specialisation gains -3 Casting Speed and permanent Improved Alacrity, but all Physical damage inflicted are reduced to 50% damage and -3 Thac0.
Disadvantages
- loses Shape Shifting Abilities

=================

Shadow Blade (Fighter => Thief)
Advantages
- has HLAs to increase Backstab Damage Factor by 1, selectable at level 21 and 31
Disadvantages
- permanent -3 Thac0 and -45% damage when using Missile Attacks, starting from level 18

=================

Eldritch Phantom (Mage => Thief)
Advantages
Obfuscation
- 1 use per day. gain 1 use at level 18, 23, 29, 36
- Magic Resistance set to 5%, with extra 5% at levels 15, 18, 21, 25, 29, 33, 37. lasts 6 hrs, undispellable
- Improved Invisibility, undispellable, lasts 6 hrs
- Invisibility, dispellable, lasts 6 hrs
- at level 21, gains Non-Detection effect, lasts 2 hrs
Disadvantages
- takes 30% extra Damage from Missile attacks except when Obfuscation is in effect

=================

Prelate (Fighter => Cleric)
Advantages
Channel Holy Might
- 1 use per day. gain 1 use at level 17, 22, 28, 35
- +1 to Str, Dex, Con for every 3 Caster Levels
- lasts 6 hrs, undispellable
- while active, Missile Attacks are set to 20 Thac0 and 0% damage
- at level 22, sets Str to 25, lasts 1 hr
Disadvantages
- -2 Thac0 and -30% Damage to Missile Attacks

=============

Archmage (Cleric->Mage)
Advantages
- Arcane Conduit (HLA obtainable at level 25) : permanent Improved Alacrity, -1 Casting Time, unable to do any damage through Physical attacks, takes extra 40% damage on being hit by Melee or Missile attacks
Arcane Sanctuary :
- 1 use per day. gain 1 use at level 16, 22, 28, 35
- lasts 12 hrs, undispellable
- sets AC to 3, with additional +1 AC bonus at level 16, 20, 25, 31
- at level 18, provides Improved Invisibility while active
Disadvantages
- may not wear Armor, only Robes

Edited by Zyraen, 19 March 2008 - 09:23 AM.

[Tassadar88]

Most interesting, although I wonder whether the 7K exp per 5 levels penalty for a rest isn´t cutting the power of these classes too much. I would also like to know whether different kits could be made available for diferent combinations of the same classes - like a Mage going to Figher being handled differently than a Fighter going to Mage (which I often do).

Also, the advantages of Shadow Blade seem quite powerful in contrast to the disadvantages and Eldritch Phantom doubly so, especially when compared to the Spell Steel. (but it may be that I am not giving it enough credit because this is a fighter with an arcane bonus to it, while what I am looking for is a mage with some edge in fighting ;-) )

Overall looks *VERY* nice and am looking forward to more progress

[Eric P.]

I'm highly in favor of this interesting alternative classing. I'm sure it falls to playtesting to determine whether or not the advantages justify the disadvantages. I feel they will, and I look forward to trying the hidden kits out

Happy modding,
Eric

[maximus2001]

Don't forget the Dragon Knight! I always use paladins or anti paladins so that would definitely be interesting.

[Oldwolf]

Personally I like the Arcane Steel and I'd try that out in a hearbeat. Sounds like a really great idea to me. If you get it to the testing stage give me a PM and I'll help test it for you. I'm constantly reloading my mega for various reasons

Edited by Oldwolf, 25 March 2008 - 07:55 AM.

[Zyraen]

After some Consideration, I've decided to reduce the XP lost every Rest to a fixed amount as follows
5000 XP per rest if XP less than 3000000
7500 XP per rest if XP less than 6000000
10000 XP per rest if XP more than 6000000
More than reasonable, and simple to implement. As opposed to using levels.. augh!