22 replies to this topic

[Githzerai]

I have always wondered about this. While Torment provides what many think is the best story and roleplaying, how great is it's literary value? Let's continue to look at it as a game, not what the story would look like if written in a book. I see none of the newer RPGs following this trend, but could this have been a new way of artistic expression?

When I think of the story and the plot itself, I can't really say I can see it measure up to...say the work of the great Russian writers. You wake up in the Mortuary as a mysterious looking, scarred man who has lost his memories and spend most of your time in the game trying to get them back. And then you choose to redeem your sins in order to escape the immortality. Honestly, as much as I love this game, I can't say it has much value in this regard. Better than all the other games, yes. But worthy enough on it's own? I don't think so.

Another point I would like to bring up is the interactive aspect of video games combined with a good storyline. We got used to reading the story in the previous centuries and that was it. But wouldn't active participation in it greatly enhance the experience? Just think about it. If only the RPGs continued to develop in this direction instead of commercializing...

Edited by Githzerai, 12 February 2008 - 11:51 PM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Remember, a game is a multimedia entertainment unit, not a literacy piece, so does it really matter anyway if it's not as good as "say the work of the great Russian writers". And besides A bet the bible is the most reeded book in the history of earth, and I bet also that many didn't like the literal expression of what they reeded, but they reeded it none the less, cause in so doing they got the power to wield the words of the god.

As a side line: Have you played Fallout?

[Githzerai]

Remember, a game is a multimedia entertainment unit, not a literacy piece, so does it really matter anyway if it's not as good as "say the work of the great Russian writers". And besides A bet the bible is the most reeded book in the history of earth, and I bet also that many didn't like the literal expression of what they reeded, but they reeded it none the less, cause in so doing they got the power to wield the words of the god.

You've got a point there, it does not really matter, I enjoyed it anyway. However, I am simply intrigued as to what the others thing of it's story, which IMO is in fact not as good as it appears while you're playing it.

Why do you bring up the bible? That is a different type of literature. Of course it wouldn't be so popular if it wasn't the holy book of Christianity but merely a literary piece. I was more talking about the books that have that have the general acclaim of the critics today. In order for it to be claimed a work of art, it must bring up something new, original, have a "deep" message that goes throughout the piece etc. That doesn't mean it has to be immensely popular.

As a side line: Have you played Fallout?

Unfortunately, no. I'll have to get round to doing that sometime.

Edited by Githzerai, 13 February 2008 - 02:06 AM.

[Tassadar88]

Literary value is something hard to identify in any written work. In most cases, it is not the complexity of story that defines it, but other things, ranging from the questions the wrok raises, the thoroughness of character description, or even the level of sophistication of the language used... Torment would probably pale in comparison to any post-romantic classic novel, but it might easily go on par with heroic epics in many aspects, the story being one of them. You have the protagonist going a way in both literal and a metaphorical meaning of the work, you have a clearly defined setting in which all this takes place, now all you would need is a dactylic pattern to go with that, and you would have an Oddyssey. But then again, it is just a game and to want people to write games in Dactyls... They would be bordering on culture :-P

[Kulyok]

Sorserers.net has novelizations for BG, BG2 and PS:T(game dialogue, minimal creative input). It's still hard to read. Interactive dialogue and written narrative... well, "difficult, if not impossible, to compare" is an understatement.

Saying again that "PS:T is a classic of the genre" is probably the best one can do.

[Jarno Mikkola]

In order for it to be claimed a work of art, it must bring up something new, original, have a "deep" message that goes throughout the piece etc.

And the Bible doesn't have this? Then what is it about?

Although I haven't read the whole piece of s¤%&/"=, I would assume... it tells about the morality of the Christians. And the message is that you should join.

[Kaeloree]

Just a friendly reminder to stay on topic; this is not a discussion about the merits of Christianity or religion, and bashing or flaming will not be tolerated.

Personally, I think Planescape: Torment was a landmark game, and continues to surpass many current roleplaying games in complexity, detail and quality; but like Kulyok, Tassadar and Jarno, I don't personally think it's possible to compare it to literary fiction due to the enormous differences.

[Grunker]

You bring up an excellent discussion Gith. The literary value of games today, especially roleplaying games, are somewhat a mystery to me. I cannot understand why it is so low.

My reason for enjoying PS:T so much, is because it has the best literary value of all RPGs out there. You're right when you say it doesn't hold a feather when compared to Dostovjetskij or similar writers, but if just a few of the new RPGs had the same literary value as PS:T, I'd be happy.

Cause PS:T has literary value. For book material, it would be an allright book, which makes it a fantastic game. It is kindda sad, but no other games I've tried have even had it as a goal to have philosophical merit or the like.

[Githzerai]

My reason for enjoying PS:T so much, is because it has the best literary value of all RPGs out there. You're right when you say it doesn't hold a feather when compared to Dostovjetskij or similar writers, but if just a few of the new RPGs had the same literary value as PS:T, I'd be happy.

Cause PS:T has literary value. For book material, it would be an allright book, which makes it a fantastic game. It is kindda sad, but no other games I've tried have even had it as a goal to have philosophical merit or the like.

Why yes, I was thinking pretty much the same thing. It would definitely make a decent book, although the interactive story would still provide a much better experience. The thing is, I find it kind of strange to say this - when I was playing the game, I had the feeling I was reading a book of the utmost value, something like I've never experienced before, I barely got myself to sleep the night I finished the game.

Edited by Githzerai, 13 February 2008 - 04:57 AM.

[Kellen]

First note. PS:T did have a novel version published. Amazon has it here.(That's the American one, not sure what the address is for the European. Also if you're a die hard fan of PS:T don't buy the book without at least using the Search Inside option. You almost certainly won't like it as much as the game.)

Second note, I've never played PS:T, never read the novel. What info I have of it is from other players, mostly here(most seemed pleased to passionate to obsessed). So I can't completely comment on its skill in creating a literary masterpiece.

However I can make an important distinction. A game does not need to be as excellent as a literary work. Why? No not because gamers are unrefined and don't need as excellent a story. A game is a very different work than a piece of writing. A piece of writing requires you to work twice as hard to establish empathy with your characters, to create passion for the plot, anger for the villain, etc. With a game, you are the character, you spend time creating him, and then as the plot develops, more often than not, you learn more about him. Not just strengths and weaknesses, but you discover who he is, what he is, his past and you develop his future yourself.

In a game the protagonist is yours. In a book he belongs to someone else, he's distant(or she as the case may be). Thus for a game, you are more easily drawn in then a book. In the end, the story of PS:T or BG2 may not be as epic or poetic or whatever as some of the other stories you consider true works of fiction, but because of what they are they don't need to be to be close to us.

I'm going to shut up now. Didn't mean to write a novel here.

[Githzerai]

Ah, I have no other option but to agree with your opinion too Kellen, you've all made some fine points here.

That's exactly what I was talking about when I said how I was disappointed that the games (RPGs) aren't moving in the direction of being a form of art. What you said is absolutely true - there is a greater sense of bonding with it's characters that doesn't even require the story to be superb. That is probably what I felt when playing PS:T; even though I've played through the game only once, the artistic experience was great indeed. So like I've said - imagine more work put into the storyline in games, something even greater than Torment...now that would truly be special.

Edited by Githzerai, 13 February 2008 - 09:33 AM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

imagine more work put into the storyline in games, something even greater than Torment...now that would truly be special.

Ouh man, you gotto try the Fallout... But please, start from the begining.

[Kellen]

Windows 95? Do those games still exist?!?!

Okay, but to be serious, be careful about purchasing a game for Windows 95, before checking to make sure your system is able to work with it.

[Tempest]

Gith, I think the reason why games aren't moving towards art status, as you put it, is the idea of role-playing. A game designed for role-playing is designed to allow the player to play as they wish, following whatever paths they want in the game, interacting with whatever characters, with whatever motivations. A role-playing game's literary quality is so nebulous because the very nature of the game works against a novelization-a novelization can only pick one interpretation of events, one choice of quests, paths, characters, and so on and so forth, assigning a definite personality and *character* to what is supposed to ultimately be the player him/herself. A game set to have a high literary value is one with a protagonist already defined, with a strictly linear plot-so there is no possible interpretation of events. PS:T, Baldur's Gate, KOTOR, Oblivion, and the like are all so popular because they are the epitome of role-playing games, not storytelling per se.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Okay, but to be serious, be careful about purchasing a game for Windows 95, before checking to make sure your system is able to work with it.

Well, it works... and it was even given a special .exe to work under the 32bit system(WinXP and probably Win98) as it was created, and it works even under DOS...

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 13 February 2008 - 10:25 PM.

[Tassadar88]

Besides, there are two things that are to be kept in mind.

Fact one: Torment is more about identifying the character than any other game I have played. In the game, you have to discover who you are, rather than fight to save the city of XY from evil Z. The game is about self-identification, which is probably why it let´s people identify with the protagonist within it so well. And such a thing is not possible to do with a novel.

Fact two: Torment was special in a way, but if you look at how it sold, you can hardly be surprised that there are no attempts at following its example. It is not a mainstream RPG, and mainstream players are those with the most cash, so there goes the wish for similar games, I suppose...

[VIIIofSwords]

I think the literary value of it is going to come down to the person reading it. Yes, by video game standards, the game stands as a testament to just how good game scripts can be written, but comparing it to good literature? Sure, there are plenty of books that have worse narratives, concepts, and characters than PS:T, but there are more than are better. We don't even have to look at classic examples for this, though this may all come down to a matter of taste.

Echoing Tempest's point, PS:T (and others of the genre) are role-playing games. That sort of limits things, because the player has choices in a game, but lacks those choices in a novel. Part of what makes PS:T such a profound experience, for me, is the fact that it is the one game where you can control the most aspects of your character. Sure, there are limitations, but for the most part, you have enough freedom to make The Nameless One "you." With art, I think you have to be able to relate to it to an extent, but ultimately, you're not "in" it.

[Githzerai]

Let's not forget that few (no) games have the true freedom of roleplaying. You can't really choose your character's path anyway you want - there is of course always a "skeleton" of the story and multiple choices and endings at best. So the quality of the "written" part of the game can still be judged through dialogs and the script. Like Tempest has said, some games have a plain, linear plot while others like TES series could be considered the pinnacle of roleplaying for it's replayability and variety of choices.

So while literature and storyline in RPGs can't really be compared because they are two different forms of art, I still firmly believe that the script or whatever the appropriate name for that aspect of the game would be, can still be classified as good or bad, even if the game itself has a plentora of different paths it's protagonist could take. The living example of this is in my opinion none other than Oblivion - even though BG2 or PS:T are far more linear, their story still beats OB by a long shot.

[VIIIofSwords]

The sad part is that dialog and script alone aren't enough to make a novel good. From what I've noticed, the more linear the plot, the better a game would translate into novel format if written properly. Since there's only one thing to focus on, the writing of the plot really has the chance to shine through. Not saying that this isn't present in cRPGs and the like, but the more options you have, the more distractions from the main plot become apparent. Then again, I'm biased. I'm more than willing to sacrifice player options and role-playing possibilities in favor of a solid plot and a good cast.

This would likely explain why I now prefer "playing" visual novels like Fate/Stay Night and Higurashi no Naku Koro ni than the RPGs that used to take up so much of my time.

[Tassadar88]

The living example of this is in my opinion none other than Oblivion - even though BG2 or PS:T are far more linear, their story still beats OB by a long shot.

Hmm, I am not really sure I agree-as far as I am concerned, the story of TES4 (the only one I played extensively) is extremely linear. All plot point are one-solution. You cannot choose to kill Martin, you have to go with Baurus, you have to fight the Daedra, otherwise the story will not progress to the single end. You always have but one way to progress. In PST, you can in most cases choose to slaughter your way through NPCs, or to negotiate, hell, especially the multiple endings put PST way above TES4 in my opinion as far as non-linearity is concerned...