90 replies to this topic

[SimDing0]

I've already posted my scorn for copyright notices in mods for the precise reason you, Large Paragraph Man, mention. That said, I'd like to think that we're all nice enough to respond to "hey, can you not mirror/modify my mod?" in some way other than "WHAT YOU GONNA DO BITCH?"

[bigmoshi]

I wish there was more respect floating around. There's a fine line between ethics & what you can do. Its like saying would you take your friend's xbox and play with it knowing that he doesn't like it, but just because you also know he can't do anything about it? If you are, please don't be my friend.

But I think these modders who have dedicated over 10 years of their lives ought to be respected for their work. After taking what they have gave, in courtesy, we ought them something in return. Its called rights. Leonardo has built up a good reputation over many months on BWP, and its obvious he's been through hell of a time working through it. Yet, from what I can tell, he DOES respect the modders based on the latest decisions about his unpacker in the BWPv4. The unfortunate thing issue is targeted at the unauthorised mirrors of other thread followers. I'm not sure whether Leonardo endorses it at all. He's a friendly guy and I'll be surprised if he does.

Sure, I am new here and don't know of a lot of history. But from my short stay here, what I can sense is that pple here love to help. Yet whats the point of solving a problem but opening another bigger can of worms. There are a couple of great ideas moving around, eg like koravex's custom BWP, which are definitely not out of ill-intent but probably misguided.

Why are some ppl concerned about these freeware/opensource copyright issues? Because they take pride in the service they do for the public, so again do give their rights. Copyright piracy issues may not be be important in some parts of the world, but they are important in most countries.

Note: Perhaps new thread may be in order, because it may no longer be a BWP - unauthorised mirror by Leonardo

[Tempest]

This thread has gotten badly sidetracked. If you must exchange insults, do so over PM.

[berelinde]

I never had a problem with my mods being hosted by Leonardo Watson, because, like bigmoshi says, he does care about things that are important to me, like tech support, compatibility, and my own preferences, as a modder.

To me, Leonardo Watson is the gentleman of this discussion. He has stated his opinions, and has done his level best to accomodate all interested parties. For that, I am inclined to trust his judgment. OK, so I'm easy. I never said I wasn't. He has my permission to do what he likes with my mods, because I trust that he will allow them the support I will gladly deliver.

I cannot say the same for koverex. He's just mirroring mods, whether the modders want it or not, and offering no links to the official sites. It is clear that he's more pirate than protagonist in this debate. AFAIK, koverex has not mirrored any of my mods on his site, but I'd be just as happy if he continued to avoid them. I don't want my mods released as unsupported things, floating around in the void of non-action. If players have a problem with my mods, I want to address them, and help those players achieve the most stable installation they might possibly achieve.

So with that, Leonardo Watson: carry on, with my blessing. Koverex: please reconsider. Modders have nothing to gain by refusing you, apart from the knowledge that their mods will only be supported somewhere else, that you don't mention. Please keep that in mind. Sometimes, it isn't being selfish, it's just the modder's desire to have everything play nice with everything else.

[kovarex]

Seems like you did not look on the page at all.

The mirror list contains home-page link AND readme file for nearly every mod there.

This is the problem of ppl who don't even know what are they talking about.

Edited by kovarex, 29 December 2007 - 10:15 AM.

[kovarex]

With an attitude like yours, kovarex, I doubt many players could be arsed with your mirror in the first place.

When someone says something that is clearly not true, what should I do, just nod?

Why is the modding community so different from the programming community, why are u saying things like this instead of using arguments?

(That sentence will be surely quoted with comment - "Are you Implying I'm stupid"? etc.

I'm REALLY not interested in flamewars.

As I said previously, I'm planning to have more download location for mods and use the local(unauthorized) only as the last save.
If you have good argument against it, say it, and I will think about it, but I can't help you otherwise, as I don't care of flame soldiers.

Edited by kovarex, 29 December 2007 - 04:41 PM.

[AnnabelleRose]

Luckily it would seem that my mods are not interesting enough to be included in this, so truly I don't have alot to say.

I have sided with Sim and T.B. many times on similar 'legal' threads.

I only want my mods hosted in two places:

1) IEGMC
2) The modding site that hosts the mod (ex: SHS, TeamBG, and CoM, currently).

My reasons for this are simple, and my (non-existant) lawyers have nothing to do with it.

1) I use dialup and uploading new versions simply takes too damn long.
2) There are some (ok, one really) modding sites I want nothing to do with.
3) I hate email with a passion, and almost never check mine. So if someone else hosted it, I would have to email them, and then get around to deleting all my spam (might even have to answer a few from friends, even though I tell them never e-mail me).
4) I am planning on updating almost every mod I have made within the next month or so, and I can't/won't be bothered with updating/contacting any other sites then the two listed above for the above reasons. So if anyone sees/downloads them from somewhere else, be aware they will probably be out of date. My mods are almost never in the Infinity Enigne News threads.

In closing:

"WHAT YOU GONNA DO BITCH?"

(Just for Sim)

Edited by MajorTomSawyer, 30 December 2007 - 02:06 AM.

[Psykotik]

[...]
When I saw that someone dumped my mods into a package, I treated it as pretty much the same thing. I wrote to the site's management, and I notified other modders that their work was treated like garbage. I might well do it again, and will.

If somebody wishes to act differently, it is his mod and his copyright. This is mine. Do not mirror my mods without my permission.

Let me ask you a question, Kulyok: have you asked to the original team, which actually made the original game, any kind of permission?

It seems to me that a lot of modders, on this thread, have forgotten that they made only a mod, a kind of appendix to Baldur's Gate. They didn't invent a whole new game, they used tools and concepts already made by others.

What if the copyright owners would have reacted like this? Like you? This very website wouldn't even exist.

I think BG makers are damn happy to see their work spread, used, played so many years after their release. It seems pretty strange to see so many people, using the original work they don't own any copyright, reacting like this.

Maybe there is something I don't understand?

[Kulyok]

Why, yes. Recently, Aerie.ru hoster asked them to stop providing downloads for BG1 and BG2(not mods, but the original games). I have a feeling Mr Kovarex may soon be asked to follow suit, if requests of two leading modding sites' webmasters don't seem to get to his head.

As for Bioware/Atari allowing modders to continue, re-read this topic again.

Understand this: you'll never get a full mirror for all mods out there. The biggest ones at the moment are Blackwyrm's Dragon's Hoard and TheWizard's IEGMC, and if these rather well-known people in the modding community have not succeeded, I do not think anyone will, however many essays will be written on the matter. There's no use in discussing it further.

[bigmoshi]

Hi Psykotik, you have your point.

But obviously, she has her own case to defend. Its her mods. Seriously, if she was mean, she could just email the service provider and they will take off the files or even your whole domain in some cases. Every server host has something like an "Acceptable Use Policy" in their terms and conditions before you sign up as a customer.

Here's from my host:

In addition, all electronic files stored within Host Department LLC’s file-servers must be legally-owned and accompanied with a valid license. This include and not limiting to MP3, AVI, MID, MIDI, MPG, MPEG, MOV, EXE, ISO. Should Host Department LLC found any unlicensed and/or illegal files within the Customer’s account, the files will be subjected to deletion without any further notifications.

Already, she's probably considered kind enough to raise this up for discussion first (though she sounds fierce).

Who wouldn't want to package all these files and put it on torrentz.com. Why go through all the trouble with weidu & installation kits. You don't even need instructions. Every file is patched. etc. But its touchy issue. And the thread is becoming an emotional one due to some strong comments raised in page 3 & 4. I hope you read it and think whether its fair.

Just because a door is unlocked doesn't mean that you should enter without invitation. Perhaps if you had rung the doorbell first, the owner would have invited you in. Seriously, if at the end of the day this discussion goes for unauthorised mirroring, everyone would love to just pack up a torrent and thats it. But that would infringe upon a lot of pple's IP & the "happiness factor" in modding drops.

[Psykotik]

Why, yes. Recently, Aerie.ru hoster asked them to stop providing downloads for BG1 and BG2(not mods, but the original games). I have a feeling Mr Kovarex may soon be asked to follow suit, if requests of two leading modding sites' webmasters don't seem to get to his head.

I understand you feel upset for the "unacknowledged" use of your mod.

But do you think that Kovarex did so to upset you? Or because he was keen about modding community, wanting people to play your mod? Why is your reaction so rude? Is he your ennemy? Has he really trashed your work, tried to make money with your mod?

His error was to not ask you the permission. But if I understand why if failed to do so, I don't understand why you seem so spoliate.

As for Bioware/Atari allowing modders to continue, re-read this topic again.

Well, I didn't find answer to my question. I carefully read the thread, and came upon two messages, one from SC, the other yours:

Has anyone of you modders asked Bioware about "unauthorized mirrors" or "unauthorized miods"?

Yes, we have, and so far, things have been going smoothly. I cannot say the same about you.

For the sake of argument: you can download my mods on Pocket Plane anytime, anywhere. (Or, if you're from Poland, ask yarpen about these bonus DVD materials from the official publisher - from what I know, Xan might become, or has become a part of them smile.gif ). Don't tell me it's hard to find - one Google click does it.

I do not think, when I read your answer, you expressly ask for modding, to the copyright owners. Am I right? Maybe 2 or 3 devs asked in the first times (the TDD times), but after that, every moder went to his own mod without asking anything to anyone. Let's say... that's what is happening right now: permissions have been asked to some of the modders, and assumed for the others.

They didn't want to protect their work to be used and modified, and you would prevent mirroring yours? Thats sound a bit strange.

Understand this: you'll never get a full mirror for all mods out there. The biggest ones at the moment are Blackwyrm's Dragon's Hoard and TheWizard's IEGMC, and if these rather well-known people in the modding community have not succeeded, I do not think anyone will, however many essays will be written on the matter. There's no use in discussing it further.

The Ascension approach is consensual enough (and smart) to resolve any future problem that could arise; but please, be correct, if you do not want people using your mod, do not share it on internet. If you want people playing it, but you want to keep the ownership, start making games, not mods. Start from scratch creating a new game.

Copyright laws, except maybe in the USA, exist to protect the sell of a goods, and insure that the benefits of the sell would be used to invent something new. These laws don't exist to protect the property protected. For mods, GNU license is perfectly adapted.

Who wouldn't want to package all these files and put it on torrentz.com. Why go through all the trouble with weidu & installation kits. You don't even need instructions. Every file is patched. etc. But its touchy issue. And the thread is becoming an emotional one due to some strong comments raised in page 3 & 4. I hope you read it and think whether its fair.

Just because a door is unlocked doesn't mean that you should enter without invitation. Perhaps if you had rung the doorbell first, the owner would have invited you in. Seriously, if at the end of the day this discussion goes for unauthorised mirroring, everyone would love to just pack up a torrent and thats it. But that would infringe upon a lot of pple's IP & the "happiness factor" in modding drops.

I used to be an active contributor and user of Celestia. The copyright issue arose times to times, even if it is an open source program. But what I cannot understand is why people are so protective about their work, even if their work is only permitted by a previous person...

And about the huge torrent package: cannot be made, since mods change... and you would have to repack every week or so. Thats why these new approaches (program-based, web-based solutions to install weidus mods) are much more adapted.

Anyway, I don't want to hurt anyone there, I express only my opinions. I respect the work made, the imagination, the incredible involvement in this task. But if I don't agree with an opinion, I try to explain why.

Edited by Psykotik, 30 December 2007 - 08:37 AM.

[ronin]

Great post Psykotik. I cant say more or a moderator will send me another PM. If a certain person (who I cant name or I will get into trouble) would stop starting bullcrap threads like this and grow up and get a life the world of modding would be a great place.

[AnnabelleRose]

Great post Psykotik. I cant say more or a moderator will send me another PM. If a certain person (who I cant name or I will get into trouble) would stop starting bullcrap threads like this and grow up and get a life the world of modding would be a great place.

With all due respect, posts like this do little to nothing to help.

Do I share the conserns about copyright/leagility? Not really.

What does concern me is right or wrong, if people do not treat modders/other modders work the way said modder would like, the community usually winds up loosing a modder.

I could name many names we have lost.

The problem with mods being on too many 'unauthorised mirrors' is simple.

Let's say Kulyok releases a new version of Xan. This one is a mix of bugfixes and additional content.

Now the maintainer of the megamod is on a very extended break.

Out of convience many mega-mod users will keep using the mega-mod (all in all, it is not a bad idea and does simplify things for the average user). Now they are reporting bugs at G3 that Kulyok has allready fixed and she cannot do anything other then telling them to reinstall everything (never fun).

Before anyone says that mega-mod bugs should always be reported here, we have all seen them reported on other forums.

Perhaps this is an extreme example, but it is possible.

Edited for clarification/typos.

Edited by MajorTomSawyer, 30 December 2007 - 07:20 PM.

[Ascension64]

I think at least one other modding community has beat the horse dead beyond its bones: http://wrye.ufrealms...vs. Parlor.html. I think the their situation is highly analogous to ours. Recommended read.

Edited by Ascension64, 30 December 2007 - 08:09 PM.

[bigmoshi]

No offense meant, but the discussion by Wrye although well-written, is rather a one-sided piece of work. I do not entirely disagree with him, but no links are given to the forum thread that he mentioned about. We haven't heard from the parlors in his discussion. Not forgetting that there are always two-sides to a coin.

It was this, combined with very vocal support for the parlor view on the forum, that led me to retire. I had several ongoing projects and there were several items that I would have liked to continue working on, but it seems like the Parlor view is predominant – and personally I don't find it that inspiring.

Its like comparing different politics, and saying that one view is better than another. Just because you don't see my point, I find it uninspiring. Its unfair to make a judgment call like that.

With respect to this thread only, what is suggested by parlors is that both views should co-exist, and the "cathedralists" should honour/respect the rights by the "parlors".

On the other hand, there is an added issue of the cathedralists' refusal (not failure) to recognise the existence of the parlors, and I think that is the cause of the problem.

Trying to bring this thread back on track:

Many pple here seem to be keen on a seemless mega-mod, even for me I rather spend time playing than to mod, since school is going to start soon. Now, besides the "cathedral" and "parlor" versions, perhaps we should introduce a "democratic" resolution. Now, I'm sure most pple know that this works in real-life such as in joint-ventures/cooperatives:

• A body/committee of reputation should take charge of the process, such that modders would be assured and confident of the quality control of that process. That way, things can proceed with less hiccups & arguments.
  
• Avoid the issue of rights entirely by maintaining an "out-by-default" policy where the selection process for mods should be "out" by default - "in" only when agreed upon by the owner/developer/whoever.
  
• By opting "in" to want your mod included in the mega-mod, the modder has to or would implicitly agree that it will be distributed as such and such.
  
• Start adding the larger fruits to the basket before adding the smaller ones - same way you try to fill a container with rocks, stone, gravel then sand.

Further suggestions?

[dragonian]

Great post Psykotik. I cant say more or a moderator will send me another PM. If a certain person (who I cant name or I will get into trouble) would stop starting bullcrap threads like this and grow up and get a life the world of modding would be a great place.

With all due respect, posts like this do little to nothing to help.

Do I share the conserns about copyright/leagility? Not really.

What does concern me is right or wrong, if people do not treat modders/other modders work the way said modder would like, the community usually winds up loosing a modder.

I could name many names we have lost.

The problem with mods being on too many 'unauthorised mirrors' is simple.

Let's say Kulyok releases a new version of Xan. This one is a mix of bugfixes and additional content.

Now the maintainer of the megamod is on a very extended break.

Out of convience many mega-mod users will keep using the mega-mod (all in all, it is not a bad idea and does simplify things for the average user). Now they are reporting bugs at G3 that Kulyok has allready fixed and she cannot do anything other then telling them to reinstall everything (never fun).

Before anyone says that mega-mod bugs should always be reported here, we have all seen them reported on other forums.

Perhaps this is an extreme example, but it is possible.

Edited for clarification/typos.

and what if let`s say Wizard will go on this very extended break?

Right now on wizards mirror are new wersions of NToTSC and DToTSC and on SCS mirror are outdated ones so what are we talking about if OFFICIAL mirrors are not being always updated?

Edited by dragonian, 31 December 2007 - 01:48 AM.

[SimDing0]

and what if let`s say Wizard will go on this very extended break?

This is a slight problem I've always had with these "mod download centres", actually. I like people to visit the homepage before downloading my stuff, which ensures they always get the latest version and plenty of information, but sites like IEGMC cut this step out and encourage people to download a fuckload of potentially outdated stuff about which they have little information. I don't actually know what mods of mine are on IEGMC or the BWL download centre, and I don't really care, but conceptually I prefer the "modlist -> homepage -> download" approach to the "download everything!!!!!!!!" one.
You might well point out that trawling through the modlist is tedious if you're going to do this whole "Mega Modding" thing, and of course you'd be right, but primarily I aim at a different audience to you guys--the more "discerning" customer who isn't just going to install everything he or she finds.

[Ranadiel]

What does concern me is right or wrong, if people do not treat modders/other modders work the way said modder would like, the community usually winds up loosing a modder.

I could name many names we have lost.

The problem with mods being on too many 'unauthorised mirrors' is simple.

Let's say Kulyok releases a new version of Xan. This one is a mix of bugfixes and additional content.

Now the maintainer of the megamod is on a very extended break.

Out of convience many mega-mod users will keep using the mega-mod (all in all, it is not a bad idea and does simplify things for the average user). Now they are reporting bugs at G3 that Kulyok has allready fixed and she cannot do anything other then telling them to reinstall everything (never fun).

Before anyone says that mega-mod bugs should always be reported here, we have all seen them reported on other forums.

Perhaps this is an extreme example, but it is possible.

Edited for clarification/typos.

I mean no disrespect, but how is the situation that you described any different then someone who did their install something like a month ago? To use myself as an example, I performed a BiG World install probably somewhere around a month ago. As such I imagine that at least som of the mods that I installed have since been updated which includes more then a handful of bugfixes. So if I continue playing with my old install and encounter one of these bugs, how is that any different then the situation that you described?

[Ascension64]

No offense meant, but the discussion by Wrye although well-written, is rather a one-sided piece of work. I do not entirely disagree with him, but no links are given to the forum thread that he mentioned about. We haven't heard from the parlors in his discussion. Not forgetting that there are always two-sides to a coin.

True, and I agree it is his own work and point of view only, but I believe his summary of the situation with the Morrowind community mirrors ours.

With respect to this thread only, what is suggested by parlors is that both views should co-exist, and the "cathedralists" should honour/respect the rights by the "parlors".

On the other hand, there is an added issue of the cathedralists' refusal (not failure) to recognise the existence of the parlors, and I think that is the cause of the problem.

Well, from how I understand it, Wrye recalled a parlor who censored his cathedralist work on LGNPC Seyda Neen and that's what caused him to leave. Nevertheless, the interaction needs to take on a commutative interaction; A -> B but also B -> A. It is definitely possible to have a multi-authored work to include both parlor and cathedralist aspects, except that by limitation of view, the parlor would decide on the distribution method and release, would be free to change thier own content, but would have no right to change the cathedralist content. Possible, no matter how impractical that may be.

A body/committee of reputation should take charge of the process, such that modders would be assured and confident of the quality control of that process. That way, things can proceed with less hiccups & arguments.

A body would need to consist of both modders and players for there to be any evenness in discussion and proceedings. I think we'll find one as we need one.

Avoid the issue of rights entirely by maintaining an "out-by-default" policy where the selection process for mods should be "out" by default - "in" only when agreed upon by the owner/developer/whoever.

This ensures that we don't step on anyone's toes accidentally. I wish to add an exception that an 'out-by-default' where the author is no longer interested or cannot be contacted to the best of the ability of modders and players alike for 3 months becomes 'in'. Otherwise, you will never get some of the older mods being in an mega-modification installation. I described this in the problem solving approach method.

By opting "in" to want your mod included in the mega-mod, the modder has to or would implicitly agree that it will be distributed as such and such.

Hmm, sounds like a compromise. Already, a number of people wish for their mods to be used in a mega-mod (and why not, more players to boot up their mod!) but want to be more able to support and maintain it better. This is why I propose that the mod authors elect their distribution method and version. I do not see any added difficulty with maintaining links to all over the place. The tricky part is to ensure that the links work and any updates are made ASAP. I see it as the modder's responsibility to advice explicitly in a mega-mod area that a mod has been updated, and they want the mega-mod to use the new version of the mod. If older versions are alowed, this make it simple, so long as the older version used is available and the mod author doesn't change his or her stance on the version to use often.

Start adding the larger fruits to the basket before adding the smaller ones - same way you try to fill a container with rocks, stone, gravel then sand.

Plausible. I don't see this making any difference to the way it will evolve compared to picking up random flotsam and jetsam and throwing it all together. This is because mega-mod installation order is determined by compatibility, not size. However, a mega-mod install might develop fast if you went from author most available to author least available.

I mean no disrespect, but how is the situation that you described any different then someone who did their install something like a month ago? To use myself as an example, I performed a BiG World install probably somewhere around a month ago. As such I imagine that at least som of the mods that I installed have since been updated which includes more then a handful of bugfixes. So if I continue playing with my old install and encounter one of these bugs, how is that any different then the situation that you described?

It is unfortunate because there is less inclination to fix it for you other than the stock standard response of "Update your mega-mod." No one actually wants to do that. In the problem solving approach, I propose that the bug be reported, but if it isn't game-breaking, then you'll have to live with it, even it is fixed in a newer version. Game-breaking bugs should have work-arounds. This is to ensure the player gets maximum enjoyability, even with the bugs present. It is not going to be very enjoyable waiting another X hours for a complete install, only to start a new game, find more bugs that got fixed in newer versions, re-install again, and so on.

Edited by Ascension64, 31 December 2007 - 06:50 PM.