90 replies to this topic

[quinlan]

Greetings,

I am just a player and a new entry to the mod world in general.

This discussion reminds me a lot of the conflict between the music/movie companies and the download "community". The ONLY difference is that there are much higher stakes there than here. It is difficult to find a position that will satisfy both sides, for i see valid points in both of them - here and in the piracy debates with the companies in the corporate vs consumer war. The arousal of such a problem here teaches me that there is a wider conflict between different mindsets and is not a clear black/white situation. There is a lot of grey colour in human interactions.

[Hoppy]

I had absolutely no problem downloading any of the mods from Leonardo's links to SHS G3 BWL PPG Sorcerer's and others. Actually there was one that I only found on a Russian site and posted the link into the BWP thread. I think that is the best way because everyone that downloads can get more insight into the authors/contents/contributors from the mod's home website first off in addition to other mod families like engine conversions or total conversions. And in the time it took me to attempt to install a good majority of the mods, there were already three or four updates of some of them, so I just said the heck with it. I even used the German forum links and I don't speak German. What's my point besides the fact that I have had, too much coffee? The website links to the mods should be should be sufficient enough to everyone instead of the archives.

[Leonardo Watson]

The most often put forward reason is the up-to-dateness. However, the intention from folks who have installed the server was not holding ready the very latest versions, but the most topical ones, that are really playable within the megamod. And these are not necessarily the last versions in each case. Besides, the folks were following exactly my instructions. Thereby is ensured that the megamod is playable in the described form at all.

The most prominent example for this is NEJ. You all certainly know, NeJ2 v42b is compatible with the megamod, not however NeJ2 v6.9.2.

Impromptu two other examples across my mind:
Likewise not playable are because of a bug Slime Quest v1.7, however v1.6
If you install Kido v7, you can install no more Ariena, however with v6.1

It has appeared during the tests in the course of the last year that it is important absolutely to follow also with regard to the versions exactly the instructions.

Besides, the following problems have appeared with updated mods:
1. A new component which is unacceptable with another mod was added to the mod.
2. The number of a component was changed. Because many folks carry out the installation with my .bat-files which installs the single components on the basis of the suitable code numbers, a wrong component is unexpectedly installed.
3. The code numbers of the languages was changed. Now instead of the German it was installed in Italian.
4. The newest version contain a bug or typo which prevents the installation or causes an error in another mod. Remember on Fixpack v2 when Imoen appeared no more in Irenicus dungeon!

If the mods are constantly updated to the very last, but not tested versions by a linklist, the BiG World project most time would not be playable and only thereby condemned already to the failure.

[Azazello]

@Leonardo Watson:

Have you contacted the forum-user who recently posted that s/he wants to create an automated installer? I think s/he also said that it would go and fetch the needed files based on a user's input.

I'm not a coder, scripter or developer but I truly believe that I could create a batch process that would use a downloader/FTP-thingy to fetch the mod files. NOT THAT I'M OFFERING TO DO SO.

Yes, that process would need lots of maintenance in the backend, but it would be slight in comparison to maintaining the BiG World project. It can be done. So maybe that the forum-user can work with you to create such a process.

99% of the people on this board want BiG World to be a major success. It already is, in that it's getting people motivated to make it work and to improve it. This issue here is really small in comparison.

I would ask, for no other reason than fellowship (if not in friendship) in gaming, to make a separate thread in which you list the mods that are/are-not mirrored, and if you have received permission from the mod creators. If you don't have permission to mirror, no problem--just provide a link to the mod. Modders love linking. Hoppy's right: many modders want people to visit their source/home pages, maybe just to see how many hits the mod is generating.

In this way, people can see what you have available, where, at which versions, etc. The 99% of us will help you keep the list maintained.

[Ascension64]

It is well accepted that mega-modification installs are extremely difficult to handle in any optimal amount of time, and I understand the attempts of making these installations easier as a result. At the same time, so long as the modding community goes on, there is no possibility of maintaining a specific install for any substantial period of time as it very quickly becomes outdated as soon as some kind of 'standardised' mega-modification installation is generated. Also consider that most active authors will not support older versions of modifications, and so any mega-modification install ends up stuck at the bottom of a snake trap with no ladder to climb out of --- bugs won't be handled.

Now, it is also well accepted that mega-modification installs often harbour numerous bugs from incompatibility issues and in some cases, individual mod issues.

Taken together, uploading mods to an 'unauthorized mirror', as this discussion has defined it, for the purposes of making it eaiser for people to install and play mega-modifications is not really going to achieve what it was intended for the latter, because (1) it is not helping mod authors solve bugs when older, and likely to be unsupported, versions of mods are being used; and (2) there is no mega-modification that is 'stable' at this time, and thus one will run into bugs ranging from trivial to fatal anyway.

Sure, if you would like to 'host your own mega-modification', fix it up completely, have your separate forum, and have everyone play that one and only combination, it may be more worthwhile (the old BP-BGT, for example, with its numerous BP S&H patches). Except that this strategy is riddled with ethical, moral, and practical issues that need to be dealt with.

So, if one would like to make mega-modification mods easier to search for (but in no way 'easier to play'), I also would advocate links to the original download location (there are ways you can deal with dead links) as an alternative to mirroring a version of the mod somewhere the mod authors don't know about.

[Miloch]

Likewise not playable are because of a bug Slime Quest v1.7, however v1.6

This mod is superceded entirely and incorporated in BG1 Mini-Quests. Even if it wasn't though, it makes a lot more sense to report the bug to the author rather than just saying "1.7 has a bug, so play 1.6." I bet you anything jastey would have a fix for you within a couple days, if she hasn't fixed it already.

Besides, the following problems have appeared with updated mods:
1. A new component which is unacceptable with another mod was added to the mod.

Either don't install that new component, or petition the author to make it more compatible. Most are willing to hear you at least.

2. The number of a component was changed. Because many folks carry out the installation with my .bat-files which installs the single components on the basis of the suitable code numbers, a wrong component is unexpectedly installed.

Update your batch file, or make it more intelligent.

3. The code numbers of the languages was changed. Now instead of the German it was installed in Italian.

See #2.

4. The newest version contain a bug or typo which prevents the installation or causes an error in another mod. Remember on Fixpack v2 when Imoen appeared no more in Irenicus dungeon!

See #1.

If the mods are constantly updated to the very last, but not tested versions by a linklist, the BiG World project most time would not be playable and only thereby condemned already to the failure.

I don't see what the problem is. Debian's APT that I mentioned above seems to handle this process just fine. There's a finite list of mods that are actively developed. New releases are almost always announced in a special format... hell, I think they're even RSS compatible so you could get your own feeds if you wanted to. And they don't happen all that frequently. When they do, you update your script - if you're on good terms with the developers, they might even help you with that, or do the update for you.

[Chevalier]

This mod is superceded entirely and incorporated in BG1 Mini-Quests. Even if it wasn't though, it makes a lot more sense to report the bug to the author rather than just saying "1.7 has a bug, so play 1.6." I bet you anything jastey would have a fix for you within a couple days, if she hasn't fixed it already.

Not correct on this one, she said for BGT players to use 1.6 not the newer 1.7. Her BG1 Mini-Quests did correct the bug with Slime Quest and works with BGT.

Miloch, I think you have some good points. But I see players making mistakes on the most basic level over and over. Leaving aside bugs with a Big Mega Mod, it is over many players heads. They 'see' the Everything Mega Mod and want one too. We all know that they should start with a more standard BP-BGT style install (less than 10 mods). This is what the BiG-WP is trying to fix. If you are willing to install it with the bat files and download the 'right' mods (not the latest or wrong versions) and they can all be found at a location called 'Here' this is a easier install for the player. Many of the players speak/read English as a second language and miss some of what is said.

I am currently play testing a version of a BiG WP install so I can see for myself how playable it is. I will then give it my thumbs up or down (I am sure there are some bugs, but is it playabe with a few bugs or unplayble without needing hot fixes with NI).

[Miloch]

Not correct on this one, she said for BGT players to use 1.6 not the newer 1.7.

Ah. Well then I'm sure she left the v1.6 up to be downloaded too then.

Her BG1 Mini-Quests did correct the bug with Slime Quest and works with BGT.

But then in this case, the previous point is irrelevant (unless you don't want beta mods in your install, but that would probably disqualify half the mods on the list then).

I still think that if you can write a script that automates an install, you can also write it to download the proper versions, or at least check the versions you already have are the correct ones for the script, via MD5 checksums or whatever, as suggested in the "auto-installer" post. Maybe that's a separate topic, but I really see it as the same thing.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not against this whole "Big World" thing. I think it's silly for modders to try to restrict distribution channels for their mods (regardless of whether their argument is "I have sovereign rights over content that is derivative of someone else's" or "I just want to see download statistics which are misleading in the first place" ). I'm just trying to make sure the project doesn't dig a hole for itself, and it makes more sense to me to try to do this dynamically rather than statically.

[Chevalier]

If someone could make a GUI install programme that will not let players install the wrong/conflicting mods and download them for you from an 'authorized' mirror that would be really cool!!!!!

I too hope this 'ideological' difference can be solved so that we all just get along!

[the bigg]

If someone could make a GUI install programme that will not let players install the wrong/conflicting mods and download them for you from an 'authorized' mirror that would be really cool!!!!!

In fact, I intend to do that as my graduation project (both the GUI, and a wiki-like site where modders can add and update mod/patch/compatibility info). Hence, if it is approved (I haven't discussed it with a teacher yet, and they might fuss over the gray legality of modding, or insist that I do something "for them" rather than "for me"), it has to be ready by September 2008 or so.

[dragonian]

Miloch i think you didn`t understand something from Leonardo`s post. Everything you are writing is true but what Leonardo wrote is also true - it is about up-to-dateness. As an example:
let`s say a new wersion of a mod in a list is released and it gives some bugs with the project so Leonardo contacts autor they are working together on a compatibile version and in the same time a new version of another mod is released which conflicts with BP too and so on and so on and Big World Project is NEVER playable in this way because updated mods bring inconsistiences with everything else and it is many mods so even hunting one bug made by a updated version of mod could take days if not weeks.

Edited by dragonian, 07 December 2007 - 06:04 AM.

[Azazello]

If someone could make a GUI install programme that will not let players install the wrong/conflicting mods and download them for you from an 'authorized' mirror that would be really cool!!!!!

In fact, I intend to do that as my graduation project (both the GUI, and a wiki-like site where modders can add and update mod/patch/compatibility info). Hence, if it is approved (I haven't discussed it with a teacher yet, and they might fuss over the gray legality of modding, or insist that I do something "for them" rather than "for me"), it has to be ready by September 2008 or so.

You da man. Good luck.

Pity you're not a woman. One of my classmates go her thesis topic approved based largely on the tight, creamy-white sweater (jumper) she wore, just for such occasions. Poor, witless, nerdy academics had no defense against the Power of the Bosom.

Edited by Azazello, 07 December 2007 - 05:22 PM.

[radish_hoedown]

grey legality of modding? you've got to be kidding me. If there's anything illegal about making mods then the industry is shooting itself in the feet (wouldn't be the first time, i know).

Any games developer who villanizes a modder who doesn't profit from their work deserves to have no-one buy their games. which probably what would happen, once the community got hold of it, come to think of it.

anyway, back on topic. I can't see what all this conflict achieves. the attitudes of many modders i have come across in the BG2 modding community i have never seen reflected anywhere else. this is the only community where I've heard an author say 'no, you do not have my permission to do x, play with x, even try to come a compromise on x. end of conversation.' where x is a suggestion for something constructive.

I understand the need to not have outdated links floating about, i understand a modder's sole right to his/her work and i understand why people would be annoyed here. What i don't understand is the rude manner in which many of you attack someone who isn't evil. for a start, the guys not even English first language. how do you even know if they have this 'ask the author before redistributing' etiquette in his country? He hasn't wilfully and intentionally gone out of his way to make trouble for you, it just seems that there has been a misunderstanding - not crime of the century.

-.-

[Ascension64]

and Big World Project is NEVER playable in this way because updated mods bring inconsistiences with everything else and it is many mods so even hunting one bug made by a updated version of mod could take days if not weeks.

It is my view that regardless of whether new mods replace old ones or not, Big World Project is NEVER 'playable' (as opposed to what is referred to in the emulation jargon as 'in-game'?), because (1) older versions of active mods no longer become supported, (2) almost everyone uses a different installation, and (3) inherent risks of incompatibility when combining a substantial number of mods in the same installation.

What i don't understand is the rude manner in which many of you attack someone who isn't evil.

I'll just say what is rude and evil to one is different to what is rude and evil to another. There is only so much language that you can watch, because the 'emotion' in text can be interpreted in a multitude of ways. Just be grateful that this discussion is taking place, people have made their views in a constructive manner, and the discussion hasn't descended into a flaming episode.

for a start, the guys not even English first language. how do you even know if they have this 'ask the author before redistributing' etiquette in his country? He hasn't wilfully and intentionally gone out of his way to make trouble for you, it just seems that there has been a misunderstanding - not crime of the century.

And this is why the discussion is even taking place.

[Kamui2040]

Oh man long time i posted here.
Well then let's start. I understand both points of view. Leonardo was only trying to make things simple for beginners, I've been arround for a few years and i'm still unable to do quick bugfixes with NI, and I've been trying to compose such a Uber-Mega Mod for years.

The truth is such a project is a very hard and ungrateful one. The mantainance of up-to-date instructions is a lot of work by it self, then also trying to keep up with new mod releases and new versions is even harder. So the decision was made that a big file(s) with the necessary mods should be made.
Of course Leonardo should have asked for the permission of the modders in first place, but the intentions were good.
I believe what drove this discussion to this point was the reaction in the first posts.

Every modder has a right to decide what should happen to their mods, even when it means it should completly disappear from the net. But arguing about not beeing able to support their mods, when people use older versions, isn't very enlightening to me. First of all some or maybe many modders will have nothing to do with bugs that appear when such a huge mix of mods has been used. I also understand why, but is it really the best choice?

Most of the times it's very hard to spot which mod is causing the bug and why, and in this cases the user or Leonard would be left alone with the problem. So to minimize risks Leonard when for the "use only this and that mod with version X and Y", this has been done before with the old BP. The difference was that ppl. had to search for the correct versions themselves. Finding this versions became harder and harder the older the project got.

The idea of such an application which will only download the correct versions is good and all, but which use is it when the older compatible version isn't found anymore?
E.g. I've been trying to locate Craig's bottomless containers and I can't find it anywhere anymore.
And how many of the modders are willing to actively support this project when bugs and compatibility issues arrise?
I know some are but I'm quite sure not everyone is.

I would never have included NEJ inside this project at all for example. Because I know Vlad won't really support it since his project is big enough to bug hunt when played has standalone already. Although the same could be said about many other mods arround.

And what happens to those mods that aren't actively supported anymore. Who is going to help there?
I think that the best solution would be an automated procedure too, but how well can this be done without further endangering the project, due to mentioned versions not beeing available anymore. And are authorized mirrors really that much better?

Take World Map as an example not all mirrors are up to date although the newest version has been available for some time.
My advice would be that some people just take a deep breath and try to understand the other point of view, then you can strive to achieve a mutual solution.

Edited by Kamui2040, 08 December 2007 - 12:55 AM.

[the bigg]

Pity you're not a woman. One of my classmates go her thesis topic approved based largely on the tight, creamy-white sweater (jumper) she wore, just for such occasions. Poor, witless, nerdy academics had no defense against the Power of the Bosom.

You know, I could try to woo the only CS female teacher I've had dealings with during the three years

Too bad she isn't a full teacher, so she can't approve a project, and besides I'm not good looking and she's been with her BF for about ten years now

[Kai Hohiro]

grey legality of modding? you've got to be kidding me. If there's anything illegal about making mods then the industry is shooting itself in the feet (wouldn't be the first time, i know).

Acctually it can be considered illegal to create a mod based on someone elses IP. A few years back a big DBZ mod for Quake3 got shot down because of this. Umm....yeah I know that doesn't have anything to do with this discussion here, I just wanted to impress you with my vast amount of useless knowledge...

I understand the need to not have outdated links floating about, i understand a modder's sole right to his/her work and i understand why people would be annoyed here. What i don't understand is the rude manner in which many of you attack someone who isn't evil. for a start, the guys not even English first language. how do you even know if they have this 'ask the author before redistributing' etiquette in his country? He hasn't wilfully and intentionally gone out of his way to make trouble for you, it just seems that there has been a misunderstanding - not crime of the century.

I have to agree on this, some modders here seem to be overly protective about their works. In the Oblivion modding community I've rarely seen this. Whenever I created a mod I always wrote into the readme that people can use my code in any way they see fit and that resulted in some really cool things being created on the basis of my scripts.
I generally view modding as something more community based.

[cmorgan]

@the bigg -- I gotta go back to university. In Italy. In Computer Science. (I now have to duck while my wife throws a teacup at my head).

I am sorry if posts sounded rude - I reread these again, and I am certainly interpreting the discussion as "hey, you may not have relized, but some of the good work you are doing for the i.e. community, LW, is stepping on some toes, so please ask the folks who posted the mods if they are available before redistributing".

I really like Kai's ideas, and personally think the best way to think about a mod is "I made this as a gift to the community, so do what you like with it". But not everyone feels this way, and it is a nice idea to ask. There is no evilness on either side, here.

I may not fully understand the logic or agree with placing strict licenses or distribution agreements on a mod, which at it's very heart is an unlicensed, un-paid-for use of the I.E. Engine itself (which is not open source); I may disagree fundamentally with the way another modder treats the community, or codes their stuff, or even that they exist in the universe. I might not even understand the motivation behind holding very tightly onto a mod and its code, for there is no true long lasting fame, no money, no respect that garners RL acclaim, or anything other than the intellectual joy and frustration of taking an idea and really making it work. I DO understand that it is tough to face questions about a mod version 6 levels ago, which is the only one that can be used with a certain combination of mods - it is very tough to both help new version and oldversion materials at the same time (let alone move on to building new mods and teling new stories).

BUT - I don't have to understand everything. No matter the motivations, ideas, or even the online personalities of a modder, they have spent hours and hours of their life building, tweaking, and testing stuff to make this come into being. For that reason alone, it is a gesture of respect to read the ReadMe file, and to (if the modder is still around) ask them if it is ok to redistribute their stuff.

Most will say yes, I bet, if asked.

Edited by cmorgan, 08 December 2007 - 09:00 AM.

[Leonardo Watson]

Of course Leonardo should have asked for the permission of the modders in first place

I am not the guy that made these packages or installed that server!
After I have posted my first install order about one year ago in a German forum, someone else created these packages and updated them until now. I like this service very well, however, I have nothing to do with it, so don't make me responsible!

When I have posted "The biggest running Mega-WeiDU Install of all" nearly one year ago, some of the first questions were:

Do you use a (semi-automatic) install script? I hate to think that you or someone is pressing 'I' or 'Y' over 180 times!

and:

I'm interested in your network - how are you all accessing the central installation? Or do you all have local copies of it?!!

It is absolutely necessary for further developments to be able to reproduce the exact same installation on several computers. I believe, at the moment the complained server is the only way, that guarantees it. So I appreciate the work of those people.

And how many of the modders are willing to actively support this project when bugs and compatibility issues arrise?
I know some are but I'm quite sure not everyone is.

In the beginning I have tried to email authors because of faulty files. What do you think that happend? With only two exceptions - nothing! Maybe they were caught up in a spam filter. But I don't want to waste my rare time with contacting modders because of corrections they are not keen. So my actual fixpack (that comes with the next update of my guide) contains also the most recent files with corrected typos.

the guys not even English first language.

I don't know, whether the people speak a single word in English at all. Anyway I have never seen them here.

how do you even know if they have this 'ask the author before redistributing' etiquette in his country?

In fact, it is really strange. In our country it's not legal to host or download commercial software and documents without permission. But there are no restrictions for non-commercial files as long as no-one tries to get money with them.

It is my view that regardless of whether new mods replace old ones or not, Big World Project is NEVER 'playable' (as opposed to what is referred to in the emulation jargon as 'in-game'?), because (1) older versions of active mods no longer become supported, (2) almost everyone uses a different installation, and (3) inherent risks of incompatibility when combining a substantial number of mods in the same installation.

I don't think so. It may be nearly impossible for a one-man project as in the current state. But if we work together as a big community in the right approach instead of discussing international law and order as hostile groups, we are able to solve these problems. Was not also originated with Linux one of the most stable computersystemes by common collaboration?
(1) - (3) That's no regularity. If you think about software on windows, you surely crash to desktop. If you think on Mac, it doesn't matter.
It's a matter of the rules for the modders, how to add content to the game. But to appoint the common basic rules would be a business for the modders themselves.

Edited by Leonardo Watson, 08 December 2007 - 10:06 AM.

[berelinde]

Just a heads up. Lots of new versions on G3 mods, at the moment.

The only mod that I can speak for is Gavin, which is now out in v2, and you do have permission to mirror it.