180 replies to this topic

[Tempest]

Though now I wonder who the top dog is on the Shadowfell, and what sort of spells might they grant.

Shar might move to the Plane of Shadow (it's not Shadowfell, dammit! There's a perfectly good name for it already) and claim that position-her or Mask.

Apparently it's because they want devils to be more humanoid with demons bestial (and the 'loths to be insectile?). And with demons getting the "kill-crush-destroy" programming they don't fit in so well as seducers, especially if devils are all "bargain-trick-control". It damages past consistency, but they're slaughtering a lot of sacred cows for 4e.

We already have the devil equivalent of succubi-go look up erinyes in your Monster Manuals.

I'm thinking that with some of the other changes to how the planes and deities are looking, the most powerful beings on each plane are going to be at least deity-like. Asmodeus has made the shift, I'd expect the top Feywild beings (Oberon and Titania) to be able to grant divine spells, many of the demon lords already do, and most outer planes have a few resident gods. If you're capable of granting divine spells to your 'worshippers' then it's hard to distinguish you from a god, and i'd expect the top elemental lords to be able to do that.

But with all the elements converging into one big planar soup, I can't see there being no fewer than four greater deities on that same plane, especially when they're split into vendettas like Akadi/Grumber and Istishia/Kossuth are. We might just see a grand, overarching Elemental Lord arise from it all, if my guess that the existing lords are going to kill each other off or at least seriously weaken each other.

I have to echo the comments about elves and tieflings-the latter only make sense in a Planescape setting, and they are virtually all evil. Planetouched are better left as human subraces, in my opinion. Axe gnomes if you must, but don't replace them with tieflings.

Quite frankly, I'm starting to feel like WotC is dumbing down FR and making it more accessible, which I don't like at all. If you don't want to mess with all the complexities of the setting, you don't have to. Gloss over them in the campaigns. If you do want to mess with them, they're a ton of fun if that's your gig.

[Deathsangel]

Quite frankly, I'm starting to feel like WotC is dumbing down FR and making it more accessible, which I don't like at all. If you don't want to mess with all the complexities of the setting, you don't have to. Gloss over them in the campaigns. If you do want to mess with them, they're a ton of fun if that's your gig.

That is the general feel around 4e

[Chevalier]

4th Edition should be treated as a new game that has nothing with 1st, 2nd or even 3rd edition AD&D. The only real loss is future FR novels set in 4e world. WotC has no sense of loyalty to it's fans.

[VIIIofSwords]

If everything that's being rumored is true, I'm sticking to 2nd Ed Ravenloft. At least the Demiplane of Dread is supposed to be a disturbing setting.

[Deathsangel]

We already have the devil equivalent of succubi-go look up erinyes in your Monster Manuals.

They are not popular unfortunately. Succubus is more about lust and corruption through easy pleasures
Erinyes is supposed to be the counterpart (and by the way already mentioned to fallen angels in MM), but are generally thought of as more long-term corruption.
I know the Succubi win it in the battle for the favour of the players. Maybe because succubi are more known outside D&D as well, or that the picture of the Erinyes isn't quite as appealing, or that the Erinyes misses the famous powers within the kiss that Succubi have it; who knows? I found the Succubi well placed among the demons, as I see lust, carnal pleasure and her way of corruption as way more chaotic than lawful. She was more the exception to how demons looked, and I didn't mind that for that makes them perfect for their task and a bit of chaotic things in the ranks of demons isn't bad in my eyes.

4th Edition should be treated as a new game that has nothing with 1st, 2nd or even 3rd edition AD&D. The only real loss is future FR novels set in 4e world. WotC has no sense of loyalty to it's fans.

I agree with this. It is is just the general feel I said. They are changing the game at some points rather dramatically. So much you can consider it a new game. The fear is however that not only FR will suffer.
Some people actually say they are glad for 4e because it means they will no longer mess with 3.5e
I say that it should not be versus, but I have grown tired of that debate at the WoTC boards.

If everything that's being rumored is true, I'm sticking to 2nd Ed Ravenloft. At least the Demiplane of Dread is supposed to be a disturbing setting.

May I ask why not 3e Ravenloft? I had the impression you did play 3e because of the FR moved timeline you mentioned. There is also the Call of the Chtulu (or something) and Heroes of Horror books for some dreadful campaigns. The sanity and taint rules of UA can help as well.

Edited by Deathsangel, 16 November 2007 - 01:01 AM.

[VIIIofSwords]

Wait, there's a 3rd Ed Ravenloft? I'm going to be completely honest and say I've never even heard of this. As far as I know, there is no 3rd Ed conversion. The most I know of that counts is the Grand Conjunction, which really ruffled my DM's nerves. It was enough to make her toss out the campaign we had running and start a new one on a completely different game.

I agree with this. It is is just the general feel I said. They are changing the game at some points rather dramatically. So much you can consider it a new game. The fear is however that not only FR will suffer.

A little too dramatically, if you ask me. A few changes here and there are okay, and I still think taking the uber-mages down a notch or two is a good idea, but if all the rumors are right, they're completely overhauling a big chunk of the game. Of course, you're right about the risk to other settings. FR is currently one of their more popular settings, so we're hearing more about that, but anyone have any word on places like Greyhawk or Eberron?

Edited by VIIIofSwords, 16 November 2007 - 01:02 AM.

[Azkyroth]

Wait, there's a 3rd Ed Ravenloft? I'm going to be completely honest and say I've never even heard of this. As far as I know, there is no 3rd Ed conversion. The most I know of that counts is the Grand Conjunction, which really ruffled my DM's nerves.

I agree with this. It is is just the general feel I said. They are changing the game at some points rather dramatically. So much you can consider it a new game. The fear is however that not only FR will suffer.

A little too dramatically, if you ask me. A few changes here and there are okay, and I still think taking the uber-mages down a notch or two is a good idea, but if all the rumors are right, they're completely overhauling a big chunk of the game. Of course, you're right about the risk to other settings. FR is currently one of their more popular settings, so we're hearing more about that, but anyone have any word on places like Greyhawk or Eberron?

I thought they'd stopped making content for the ones other than FR and Eberron. Did I misremember something?

[VIIIofSwords]

I thought they'd stopped making content for the ones other than FR and Eberron. Did I misremember something?

I think they're the major lines right now, but I hear things about other settings. Isn't Greyhawk sort of the default setting for D&D?

[Bluenose]

I thought they'd stopped making content for the ones other than FR and Eberron. Did I misremember something?

I think they're the major lines right now, but I hear things about other settings. Isn't Greyhawk sort of the default setting for D&D?

White Wolf produced a D20 edition of Ravenloft, though the line has been discontinued. You can still find some of the books for it on sale in some shops, usually at a reduced price.

And Dragonlance was also available, though the licence seems to have lapsed. Not the most popular version of the setting though

Greyhawk deities were in the PHB and other GH aspects have often been used in splatbooks. There have been a few books published by WotC, but most of the effort was put in by the RPGA for their Living Greyhawk games at conventions and elsewhere.

[Deathsangel]

White Wolf produced a D20 edition of Ravenloft, though the line has been discontinued. You can still find some of the books for it on sale in some shops, usually at a reduced price.

And Dragonlance was also available, though the licence seems to have lapsed. Not the most popular version of the setting though

Greyhawk deities were in the PHB and other GH aspects have often been used in splatbooks. There have been a few books published by WotC, but most of the effort was put in by the RPGA for their Living Greyhawk games at conventions and elsewhere.

Bluenose beat me too it. The 3rd edition Ravenloft is not of WoTC. I played it and it is well done. There take on it is very good and enjoyable.

Dragonlance has gone nuts in my eyes. Gods are now back, some dead, Draconians are now a normal race that breeds with their own females and they are no more evil... they killed that setting imo.

For the Living Greyhawk, I thought I saw a mentioning of a book that was planned to published for 4e... or was it a request Greyhawk as books they have no license for. Rumored (making sure that is seen) to be a thing due royalties payments to Gyaxx that were considered not worth it.

They indeed dropped a few settingsout of their main lines. That is correct Azkyroth. I rather wished they updated that than released some of the other less quality high books.

@VIIIofSwords: Once again it is general feel on the WoTC boards. Not my personal opinion, what I agreed to was that 4e edition should be seen as a seperate game as they change quite a few things of it.
Like forcing 'the I have a cool 'evil bloodline' and I try to oppose it, making my character in one time cool and dramatic' in with the Warlock and Tiefling
For FR I can understand the reduction in over-the-top mages. I just notice I was less against it seemingly than others and took it for the FR setting as it was. I am not quite against it though. I liked the great deal of gods though.

[VIIIofSwords]

White Wolf produced a D20 edition of Ravenloft, though the line has been discontinued. You can still find some of the books for it on sale in some shops, usually at a reduced price.

That explains why no one I know has ever seen a 3rd Ed Ravenloft book. The only P&P RPG that gets any ground here would be the various editions of D&D, and possibly In Nomine. Any other game company tends to get ignored, even by the largest retailers. I'll have to see about getting some copies via a friend.

I liked the great deal of gods though.

I didn't mind the number of gods, but I do like the idea of them being organized into courts. There were times when I got the impression things were a little too thinly spread because, more or less, the gods were independent of one another. At least now, it looks like there is going to be a lot more order in the divine hierarchy.

I am saddened to hear about them dropping so many good settings. Black Sun was my first D&D setting, followed shortly by Ravenloft, so I have fond memories of them both.

[Bluenose]

White Wolf produced a D20 edition of Ravenloft, though the line has been discontinued. You can still find some of the books for it on sale in some shops, usually at a reduced price.

And Dragonlance was also available, though the licence seems to have lapsed. Not the most popular version of the setting though

Greyhawk deities were in the PHB and other GH aspects have often been used in splatbooks. There have been a few books published by WotC, but most of the effort was put in by the RPGA for their Living Greyhawk games at conventions and elsewhere.

Bluenose beat me too it. The 3rd edition Ravenloft is not of WoTC. I played it and it is well done. There take on it is very good and enjoyable.

It is/was good. There are some resources available for download from the White Wolf website, including extracts from their PHB and others.

Dragonlance has gone nuts in my eyes. Gods are now back, some dead, Draconians are now a normal race that breeds with their own females and they are no more evil... they killed that setting imo.

It wasn't a setting that ever really appealed to me, but I've seen plenty of people complaining about what happened to it.

For the Living Greyhawk, I thought I saw a mentioning of a book that was planned to published for 4e... or was it a request Greyhawk as books they have no license for. Rumored (making sure that is seen) to be a thing due royalties payments to Gyaxx that were considered not worth it.

There have been a few suggestions that Wizards might release a setting every year. FR is going to be first in 2008, and I'd expect Eberron in 2009. So there might be a new Greyhawk one day, but there are other settings which might get a release too. Though what happened with Dragonlance in 3e, if I'm remembering it correctly, is that WotC released the initial campaign setting book and then licensed the line to another company (Margaret Weis Productions with Dragonlance) who produced the other books in the line.

They indeed dropped a few settings out of their main lines. That is correct Azkyroth. I rather wished they updated that than released some of the other less quality high books.

@VIIIofSwords: Once again it is general feel on the WoTC boards. Not my personal opinion, what I agreed to was that 4e edition should be seen as a seperate game as they change quite a few things of it.
Like forcing 'the I have a cool 'evil bloodline' and I try to oppose it, making my character in one time cool and dramatic' in with the Warlock and Tiefling
For FR I can understand the reduction in over-the-top mages. I just notice I was less against it seemingly than others and took it for the FR setting as it was. I am not quite against it though. I liked the great deal of gods though.

I'm not as against 4th Edition as I was when the news first came out. I'll at least pick up the core books to see what's in them. If the rules are good enough then I'll probably convert my homebrew setting to them - I've done it before, with Original D&D, AD&D 1st, AD&D 2nd, and D&D 3rd, so one more time won't be that much of a problem. But it will need to be a significant improvement to the rules, rather than tinkering around the edges. The flavour changes simply don't matter as much to me. If succubi are devils and there's no erinyes, well that's core and my game doesn't have to follow suit. It's not as if either type of creature was common.

As for the FR changes, and possible changes to other campaign worlds, they bother me very little. As a player I care less about setting consistency than I do about a good story and a fun game. If I get that, and at the moment I can't say whether I will, then I'm prepared to ignore setting changes.

[Tempest]

Bluenose does raise a good point-you don't have to play by the official rules WotC sells. They don't make Planescape or Spelljammer settings anymore, but you can still play them.

I play my own homebrew setting based on the FR, using a mix of 3.5E and 2E-for example, we recognize specialty priests as seperate from mere clerics and use most of the 2E special abilities assigned to those specialty priests.

Like forcing 'the I have a cool 'evil bloodline' and I try to oppose it, making my character in one time cool and dramatic' in with the Warlock and Tiefling

This is something I particularly hate-folks will have to remember that 99% of all tieflings and warlocks are flat-out evil. About the only good thing I can say about this is that I'm glad drow weren't added as a base race.

For FR I can understand the reduction in over-the-top mages. I just notice I was less against it seemingly than others and took it for the FR setting as it was. I am not quite against it though. I liked the great deal of gods though.

A simple revision of the rules of magic would have been enough-they didn't have to make changes this drastic.


Then again, I'm biased in all of this. In my homebrew setting, Elminster and Drizzt are both dead.

[VIIIofSwords]

Agreed. My group will probably use whatever setting changes we can work with, but ignore the rest. Even now, my DM is positively drooling at the idea of playing a no-magic campaign, where we hunt down Elminster and (in theory) take great satisfaction in getting rid of him.

[Bluenose]

Agreed. My group will probably use whatever setting changes we can work with, but ignore the rest. Even now, my DM is positively drooling at the idea of playing a no-magic campaign, where we hunt down Elminster and (in theory) take great satisfaction in getting rid of him.

You too?

[NiGHTMARE]

Some of the events mentioned in this thread, as well as various other major occurences, have already happened or are in the process of happening in the novels.

The Final Gate trilogy: Most of the aforementioned events related to Myth Drannor's restoration.

The Orc King: The permanent Orc kingdom.

Blackstaff: Khelben dies near the end of the novel, although one of his most powerful apprentices has his memories, and Khelben's spirit grants her the title of "Blackstaff" before he departs the world. Also, Khelben's lover, Laeral, is pregnant with twins, and it's strongly hinted that as the children of two Chosen, these two will be very powerful indeed. Finally, an ancient elven city the size of Waterdeep (i.e. *large*) is returned to the Realms.

Sacrifice of the Widow (The Lady Penitent book 1): Selvetarm is killed by a priestss of Eilistraee. Eilistraee herself kills Vhaeraun, but in the process absorbs his portfolio and many of his personality traits (I strongly suspect her alignment has switched from CG to CN).

Storm of the Dead (The Lady Penitent book 2): Most of vhaeraun's former followers start worshipping either Eilistraee or Shar (personally I would have thought Mask would a better choice than either, but what the hey). Kiaransalee is killed via a high magic ritual that makes all of her followers forget her name (FR deities need worshippers in order to exist).

Unclean (The Haunted Lands book 1): Szass Tam makes a play for absolute power in Thay, and as a result kicks off a massive civil war. So far it's mainly the army of Thay versus a huge army of undead, but since this is just the first novel in a trilogy who knows what will happen.

Shadowbred (The Twilight War book 1): Followers of Shar manipulate the country of Sembia into civil war. The two sides consist of the cities of Selgaunt and Saerb, versus pretty much the rest of the country. However, after having been portrayed as the "good guys" through most of the novel, Selgaunt ends up allied with the city of Shade! (Who prompty use a kraken to destroy a large portion of the city of Yhaunn.)

Shadowstorm (The Twilight War book 2): Most likely all of the inhabitants of Ordulin, the capital of Sembia, are killed when a demented follower of Shar summons a former Chosen of Mask (and now a vassal of Shar) back to Faeraun.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 16 November 2007 - 11:36 AM.

[Deathsangel]

Agreed. My group will probably use whatever setting changes we can work with, but ignore the rest. Even now, my DM is positively drooling at the idea of playing a no-magic campaign, where we hunt down Elminster and (in theory) take great satisfaction in getting rid of him.

You too?

Jeez, poor dude. I don't have those feelings towards him.

I haven't got near that many books as Nightmare, so I didn't know that... The Orc Kingdom is also not that bad.
It is the upheavel in gods worlds
Actually if we are to believe the books.... well, than high casters are still there. Just not for the moment.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Besides, wasn't it so that Mystra already knew she would die more than thousand year's before, and chose Elminster and the others, as powerful allies to help the world(the good side's) to with magic, "Roughly half of her power lies in her Chosen and in the Lesser Power Azuth", wikipedia about Mystra.

...we hunt down Elminster...

Ah, but why would a mortal hunt the death, because they can't live, forever.

[VIIIofSwords]

Agreed. My group will probably use whatever setting changes we can work with, but ignore the rest. Even now, my DM is positively drooling at the idea of playing a no-magic campaign, where we hunt down Elminster and (in theory) take great satisfaction in getting rid of him.

You too?

We're running an evil party that we know is doomed to self-destruction, if only because our 2 clerics come from Bane and Cyric. But we figure why not take down the "old man with a pointy hat" before we take ourselves down?

Besides, wasn't it so that Mystra already knew she would die more than thousand year's before, and chose Elminster and the others, as powerful allies to help the world(the good side's) to with magic, "Roughly half of her power lies in her Chosen and in the Lesser Power Azuth", wikipedia about Mystra.

I thought the Chosen were so many to reduce Mystra's power, not serve as her back-up plan? If they're really her back-up plan, doesn't that sort of make them like Bhaalspawn?

[Tempest]

We're running an evil party that we know is doomed to self-destruction, if only because our 2 clerics come from Bane and Cyric. But we figure why not take down the "old man with a pointy hat" before we take ourselves down?

Sounds fun. I used a rather large sphere of annihilation to do the job in my setting, but your mileage may vary. Luring him into a dead magic zone may also work well.