180 replies to this topic

[Kellen]

Can anyone confirm any of this?

For those interested, I have compiled the information regarding all the upcoming changes in the Realms (4th Edition) I could find in one neat post. I did not write the following and do not have details for any of these events as I have merely found them on other sites and compiled them. The following is obviously full of spoiler-ish material.

In 1384 DR, Siamorphe quarreled with Tyr as they took different sides in a clash between Tethyr and Calimsan. She removed herself from the House of the Triad and joined Sune's court in Brightwater.

Try sent Helm to plead his case with Sune and she suggested a marriage between Tyr and Tymora to set the celestial planes in balance again.

Helm conveys Sune's suggestion to Tyr and begins to chaperone a chaste courtship between the two.

Strange and fateful misunderstandings lead to the accusation that Helm has stolen Tymora's heart while conveying the gifts and sentiments of Tyr. A strict interpretation of his own ideals forces Tyr to challenge Helm, and Helm is obliged by his own beliefs to meet the challenge.

They do battle and Tyr kills Helm before coming to his senses. Heartbroken, Tymora accompanies Tyr back to the House of the Triad. Though it can't be proved, the gods sense Cyric's hand in Helm's death.

As a side note, Ilmater removes his domain to from the House of the Triad to Brightwater, at Sune's invitation.

Though nothing can be proved, the gods believe that Cyric is somehow involved in Helm's death.

In 1385 DR, With help from Shar, Cyric murders Mystra in Dweomerheart, destroying the plane and Savras, as well as sending Azuth and Velsharoon into the Astral plane.

Magic bursts from the bonds of the Weave. Thousands of mages are driven insane or destroyed, and the very substance of the world becomes mutable beneath the veils of azure fire that dance across the sky.

Cyric is imprisoned on his home plane for 1,000 years by Tyr, Lathander, and Sune for his crimes. This event is what is known as the Spellplague.

Apparently many planes are "shifted" or destroyed. The book states that only the greater gods can protect their respective planes from the destruction. This implies that some of the lesser [and intermediate] gods might not make it.

The last sentence of the book says that the Weave is destroyed and the "old world" ends and a new one begins. What that means is anybody's guess.

Although this has already been revealed in the novels, most of the Drow gods have been axed. All that's left is Lolth, Eilistraee, and Ghaunadaur. Later Ghaunadaur is attacked by Lolth and moves to the Deep Caverns.

And in 1383 a bunch of dwarven deities bite it. Gorm, Heala, Laduguer, and Deep Duerra die in battle with each other. The book says that Hammergrim "disperses" into the Astral.

The sample chapter for the Orc King (by R.A. Salvatore) gleans some glimpse of the future of Realms.

The Spellplague devastates most of the Realms in some fashion. Hundreds of thousands of people die in the chaos of the Spellplague. The Empire of Nethril rises, the aboleths become a problem. This is a reference to the colliding of two worlds though if this is literal event or bardish prose, I don't know.

The Silver Marches apparently are no more though Silverymoon survives. To survive, a very loose alliance with Obould Many-arrows.

The Orcs establish a permanant Kingdom in the North.

Myth Drannor's mythal is restored. Srinshee returns of Myth Drannor and give Ilsevele Miritar the Rule's Blade to become coronal. Queen Amlaruil returns to Myth Drannor, planting the Tree of Souls there.

Cormyr goes to war with Shade after Alusair executes a spy. Avoun V comes of age and becomes the King. He's having problems with his nobles.

Moradin leads an attack on Hammergrim and destroys it.

Halaster is dead.
Blackstaff is dead.
Selune has been laid to rest, she's really dead now, no longer a ghost.
Elminster is in hiding.

[Tempest]

They don't kid around when they decide to redo the Realms, do they? And what do you mean by Selune being dead-the goddess was never a ghost of any sort.

[Azkyroth]

They don't kid around when they decide to redo the Realms, do they? And what do you mean by Selune being dead-the goddess was never a ghost of any sort.

That's missing a ^

Heh. Wonder how many people are going to jettison the idea that any of this is "canon" for their purposes. It almost looks like they're building up to retiring the campaign setting.

[Tempest]

I've already seen this info, and my DnD group has decided that we're going to ignore the new canon info. It sounds like they are basically redoing the entire Forgotten Realms-spellcasters will be rare again and probably heavily prejudiced against, elves and dwarves are going to be endangered species again, the Harpers sound like they'll be in serious disarray, Myth Drannor is restored, the entire northern frontier sounds like it's gone (depending on if Icewind Dale survived), the planes are all screwed up, and all in all, the Realms are starting to look more and more like Black Sun-almost post-apocalyptic.

[Azkyroth]

I've already seen this info, and my DnD group has decided that we're going to ignore the new canon info. It sounds like they are basically redoing the entire Forgotten Realms-spellcasters will be rare again and probably heavily prejudiced against, elves and dwarves are going to be endangered species again, the Harpers sound like they'll be in serious disarray, Myth Drannor is restored, the entire northern frontier sounds like it's gone (depending on if Icewind Dale survived), the planes are all screwed up, and all in all, the Realms are starting to look more and more like Black Sun-almost post-apocalyptic.

Ditto. This isn't going to affect me much, except perhaps for nixing the plans I was idly toying with about writing one or more "official" books featuring Arkalian...

[Kellen]

They don't kid around when they decide to redo the Realms, do they? And what do you mean by Selune being dead-the goddess was never a ghost of any sort.

Oops. Forgot to edit that. This should be Sylune (one of the Seven Sisters) and not Selune (goddess of light).

The discussion about 4th edition starts this page and the quoted block on this page

Edited by Kellen, 13 November 2007 - 02:57 PM.

[vilkacis]

In 1385 DR, With help from Shar, Cyric murders Mystra in Dweomerheart, destroying the plane and Savras, as well as sending Azuth and Velsharoon into the Astral plane.

YESSSS!!1!1!!

(But if that messes up the Realms as much as it seems, they could have let her take the Chosen with her. That would be a good change.)

Messing with the Harpers is also a good thing, and Netheril is --ing awesome.

Bloody hell, I may actually end up liking 4th ed.

[Kellen]

In 1385 DR, With help from Shar, Cyric murders Mystra in Dweomerheart, destroying the plane and Savras, as well as sending Azuth and Velsharoon into the Astral plane.

YESSSS!!1!1!!

(But if that messes up the Realms as much as it seems, they could have let her take the Chosen with her. That would be a good change.)

Messing with the Harpers is also a good thing, and Netheril is --ing awesome.

Bloody hell, I may actually end up liking 4th ed.

Actually the number of people who agree with these points is startlingly large.

[VIIIofSwords]

I'm one of the types that has always believed that there were far too many over-powered spellcasters in the Realms. While I don't mind the fact that magic is going to be cut down quite a bit, I'm kind of surprised with how this was carried out. Cyric moving against the Chosen I can understand, and it'd be about damn time. But, even with Shar's help, I'm still not sure how Cyric could have pulled this off.

Also:
Down with Elminster!

Edited by VIIIofSwords, 13 November 2007 - 04:08 PM.

[Eric P.]

Dang!!! I have no knowledge of events in the Realms after 1372 DR...and now I'm glad. I thought Cyric was dead, and I'd hate to see Mystra come to harm, but that's just me I'm surprised to see that the Blackstaff has passed, but maybe the powers-that-be have decided to clean up a lot of old, dusty bits. He wasn't very active, anyway, from what I recall.

I agree with the too many spellcasters in the Realms opinion. If Elminster was a normal mortal, and not a Chosen of Mystra, my highest level wizard would probably be able to defeat him, but then many other players could probably claim the same

I'm almost afraid to read any more Realms novels now *L* The only ones I'm going through are those about Drizzt Do'Urden. I think I'm currently up to _Servant of the Shard_, but I don't recall, as it's been a very long time since I've done any leisure reading.

Thinking I'll stick to my own Realms campaign...and to D&D 3.5e rules (best ever FRPG rules besides RuneQuest, IMHO), at least for a short while to come. Haven't seen any of the 4E rules yet, though.

- E

[VIIIofSwords]

I just realized something.

If Mystra's dead and all arcane magic is to follow suit, where does that leave a magocracy like Thay? I recall reading somewhere that Thayvians prefer the Shadow Weave, but isn't Shar's Shadow Weave still connected to Mystra's Weave and, therefore, just as likely to malfunction catastrophically?

[Kellen]

Shar's weave was also going bonkers. Places like Thay and Halruaa will have some serious trouble adjusting I'm sure. We'll have to see what happens. I'll give it a chance, but I'm currently rather worried. I read that they might be changing the spell system to something of a mana or spell point based system, which is something I've never particularly liked. I'll give it a chance, but so far, with all the deities vanishing(come on, who doesn't find people like Hoar, the Red Knight, Llira, Talona, Auril, Loviatar, Torm, Milil, Deneir, Lurue, Eldath, etc interesting. Okay I may be the only who takes that much interest, but I'm going to be sorely upset if so many deities bite it.)

But yeah. We'll see.

[VIIIofSwords]

Thay in the midst of a slave revolt. Red Wizards desperately trying to figure out just what is going on and it can be turned to their advantage before their various enemies come knocking on the gates. Then, one of them figures out how to access what's left of magic and casts spells as if nothing was wrong...

The idea appeals to me. This may well be enough to circle an evil campaign around, given a little more thought.

As for the deities, I don't mind the loss of a few minor ones (except Red Knights and Loviatar), but I'm still upset over Mystra biting the dust and Cyric getting nothing but house arrest. 1,000 years is nothing to a deity, unless he's cut off from his worshipers completely. No spells and no contact could mean a loss of faith in Cyric, which makes his church ripe for Bane (or any other Evil enemies of Cyric) to move in and destroy or convert at his whim.

[Tempest]

All the deities dying does make a certain amount of sense-there are a LOT of them-but it's a change I am definitely not in favor of. Most campaigns either don't involve questions of the gods and their churches at all, or go whole hog on them, which makes the variety and sheer number of them very interesting-I especially enjoy messing with the churches of, and characters devoted to, the less well-known gods and ones that generally qualify as oddballs.

Halruua will just about be turned inside out-more so than any other nation in Faerun, it is literally built on magic. Either it's collapsed into anarchy or another nation (especially thinking Dambrath here) will have invaded.

Rasheman will be in upheaval, too. The Wychalarn will have been decimated by the Spellplague and lost the source of their power. Heck, the entire eastern end of Faerun will be in chaos-not just Thay and Rasheman, but the star elves of the Yuirwood have probably just lost their home plane and with it most of their population and power, the Simbul of Aglarond may have died and thus throwing that nation into chaos...

The destruction of the Silver Marches spells doom for a fair amount of Faerun's dwarven population-most shield and mountain dwarves lived in the Silver Marches and beyond, so they're in a heap of trouble. Spellplague also means elves are likely in a dire situation.

With the probable disruption and possible destruction of the Harpers as a group, all sorts of evil power groups are going to be making plays-definitely expect the Zhentarim and maybe the Cult of the Dragon to be up to their usual tricks, albeit on a much wider scale. Cormyr is going to suffer badly-with the Harpers in chaos, Darkhold's main opponents are safely out of the way.

All in all, Faerun's heading for dark times. Heck, I might need to start an epic-level campaign with my friends based around *preventing* all of this from coming to pass...

[vilkacis]

Actually the number of people who agree with these points is startlingly large.

Oh, but I don't think there's anything startling about it at all. The Harpers tend to be annoying, the Chosen are even worse, and Mystra... created the chosen and supports the Harpers. And it's all part of the general D&D pro-Good bias, which is also annoying.

And Netheril is --ing awesome. It's a scientifically proven fact.

[Bluenose]

A lot of the information comes from the last couple of pages in "A Grand History of the Realms", and much of the rest from the prologue and epilogue to Salvatore's "Orc King" novel. There's a lot of very upset people on the FR section of Wizard's boards and as many on Candlekeep (though on Candlekeep at least there are less personal insults being thrown around).

To add a few bits of information I've gleaned from various places.

Most of the deities aren't dying outright. The ones who are confirmed gone include Mystra, Helm, the Duergar, Dwarf and Drow deities already mentioned, and Savras, with Cyric imprisoned for 1000 years. Azuth and Velsharoon are missing on the Astral plane. With Mystra's death the Weave and Shadow Weave will both collapse. This affects both mortal spellcasters who have to learn to cast their spells in a completely new way, and the planes, where only the greater deities are able to retain the integrity of their home planes. This means all the planes with resident deities survive except for the Gates of the Moon, and Selune is close enough to greater deity status that I'd not be surprised if that stayed too. Lesser deities will form part of the "court" of greater deities, and share the home plane. So Sune will have a group of deities associated with her including Lliira, Sharess, Siamorphe, etc, and Tempus will have the Red Knight, Valkur, and presumably Garagos. Talos will still be the leader of the gods of fury. In practice this may mean relatively little from the perspective of a cleric. You will presumably still worship the same deity (unless they've died) but that deity will be associated with other gods in a more formal fashion than previously.

Most of the Chosen of Mystra are going to end up dead, along with a lot of other high-level spellcasters. There's still going to be some left, but a lot less than before. The "Spellplague" after the death of Mystra has the Weave and Shadow Weave running wild and a lot of arcane spellcasters won't cope well with this, plus they have to learn a new method of casting spells. There's a comment in the prologue to "The Orc King" suggesting problems for Thay, which I'd expect in a society based on slavery when the source of the rulers' power is unreliable, though one of the current novel series also deals with Thay and Szass Tam's attempt to seize power. The same prologue talks of many other problems for nations as varied as Mulhorand and Sembia, suggests some problems for the followers of Eilistraee ("Where now are the good drow, the followers of Eilistraee." asks Drizzt), mentions the rise of a Netherese empire presumably based on the city of Shade, and mentions problems with the aboleth. However, a lot of this is speculative at the moment.

The loss of the Weave and Shadow Weave appears to be motivated primarily be the changes being made to how arcane spellcasting works. In 4th edition D&D wizards will have a wider range of abilities than currently. They will still have spells as they do now which they have to memorise and can cast once before having to rest. They will also gain abilities that they can use more often, similar to a cleric's Turn Undead which can happen more than once a day. And there will be other things that they can do at will, the way a paladin can Detect Evil whenever they wish. There has been something like this before in the Complete Mage splatbook, where you could take a particular feat and you'd be able to perform a minor magic trick at will as long as you had certain spells memorised.

The overall changes to the setting appear to be partly motivated by a desire to switch FR closer to the 'Points of Light' style setting that the 4e rules will use as a sort of example. This suggest smaller settled regions surrounded by large areas of wilderness, which seems to me to be a very god match for parts of FR already. However, indications are that most areas aren't as devestated as initial fears suggested, with some suggestions that only areas that aren't popular will be really badly affected - which annoys me enormously, since my DM selected one for his games.

Overall I don't find it too distressing, but I'm also doubtful that it will be as successful in drawing in new players as WotC appear to hope. Until the new FRCS comes out next August, I don't think there's much we can say with certainty, though there should be some previews appearing online by the end on November or early December.

[Deathsangel]

I agree on many things with Bluenose here, about the boards, the fact that we don't know how much is true and the reasons why they do this if true.
The 4th edition is supposed to open up RP to more public.
I still have my doubts, and I enjoyed Fearun for what is was. For its Deus ex Maxima. There are other settings you can play to avoid those things. There are so many, official and fan converted: Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Spelljammer (Fan-converted), Eberron, Planescape and the Arabic one.
Even more in the make. Heck I am making one.
However....
I can understand some people enjoying the downgrade of the Deus ex Maxima, and less gods as that creates a better overview for new players I would guess
Though I now wonder who (as in which deity, I mean Boccob remains) is going to handle magic
By the way, Cyric is into killing gods isn't he? Bhaal, hurt Mask, Mystra, banishing others and so on.

What I really don't get. Netheril back? How? There is now little magic... netheril was a magic nation...

[Azkyroth]

Though I now wonder who (as in which deity, I mean Boccob remains) is going to handle magic

Since the FR has its own cosmology, he's probably out. My guess would be either Azuth, or Selune and/or Shar. Selune seems a prime candidate, for various reasons. Hmm, a system in which Good, Neutral, and Evil spellcasters (or a more precise variant) prayed to Selune, Azuth, and Shar, respectively, for their spells would be interesting. Or with those general trends and a somewhat different suite of new spells and abilities available to followers of each.

(One wonders whether Cyric and Shar might have received help from others as well...hmm, I might be able to build on this storywise after all.)

Edited by Azkyroth, 14 November 2007 - 03:10 PM.

[theacefes]

I for one am in favor of the decrease in the amount of magic wielders in the setting. It was getting a little bit silly.

[VIIIofSwords]

There's certainly a lot of story potential present in this news, whether official or not. But what I'm more interested in would be the long-term effects of this. How would the politics and economics of the Realms change once the initial chaos and confusion subsides? Would places like Thay and Halruaa manage to make it through, or would they be changed forever? Would there be some sort of large-scale backlash against Cyric's followers?

And I still don't think, even with Shar's help, Cyric could have pulled this all off. Someone else is in on this too, but I can't imagine any of the other gods joining in on this. They don't seem to stand to gain too much from all of this.

I foresee gloom and doom for the immediate future of the Realms. Especially if the part about Netheril coming back is true.

Edited by VIIIofSwords, 14 November 2007 - 04:33 PM.