47 replies to this topic

[Azkyroth]

Intriguing. I wonder if she feels that the Helmite tenets of guardianship and duty are better served in a repressive, tyrannical system where the populace is kept in line through fear and the privileges that come with power help to ensure that those in charge will be highly motivated to keep the system intact?

[Tempest]

Sort of. She believes that it is the duty of the strong to govern the weak by any means necessary, and that those who stand in the way of law and duty must be destroyed-she would utterly despise Nalia, who is basically her diametric opposite in world view. She has no pity or mercy for those who would stand against her or the law, and is also quite personally ambitious-she would not bat an eye at the death of hundreds of innocents if she could gain something from it. So she is unscrupulous, but also practical-she won't do something if the cost outweighs the gains, and she is definitely not evil for the sake of evil or tyrannical for the sake of tyranny-that's the provice of Banites. Lessan genuinely believes she is doing Helm's will, but takes a very different view of that will than many of Helm's clergy.

And Anomen to the contrary, Helm is an intensely LN deity with no real connection to the Order of the Radiant Heart-clergy alignments for Helmites are LG, LN, TN, and LE.

[Tempest]

With nothing other to do after my computer programming midterm other than sit quietly in the back of the classroom with my laptop until everyone's finished with their exam, I wrote up a couple more potential banters for Xarana:

Xarana-Aerie

Aerie: Oh, Baervan! How can I keep going on like this?

Xarana: By the Cold Goddess! How much longer must I put up with your incessant mewling?

Aerie: I-I didn't say anything to you, Xarana.

Xarana: Every other time you open your mouth, little wing-clipped pigeon, you do nothing but rant and bemoan your fate in life. If you're so unhappy about life, I'll end your suffering in a heartbeat.

Aerie: At least I fight what is wrong in the world, rather than giving in to the cold! You hate me because I still fight where you laid down and died!

Xarana: Don't you dare speak of things you do not comprehend, girl! I'm finished speaking with you.


Xarana-Jahiera

Jaheira: Xarana, might we talk a moment?

Xarana: What do you want?

Jaheira: There is no need to be so uncivil, child. We are both followers of nature.

Xarana: So says the woman younger than I. We are not kindred, halfbreed. I am a servant of nature. You are a delusional and naive fool, to think civilization and nature can exist in harmony.

Jaheira: There is a greater balance than that of mixed parentage, Xarana, which you should know better than most, being half-elven yourself. In the balance, civilization and nature are not enemies. They are two halves of a greater whole.

Xarana: A corrupt whole-an ideal so ingrained in traitors to nature like yourself that the only means left to nature's servants is to purge the blight of civilization from the Realms. If doing so means working against or even slaying those so blinded by corruption that they stand against us, then so be it. Peace has no place in nature. You claim to serve a balance, Jaheira, yet what of the terrible blizzard, the pestilence of disease and famine, the might of ancient creatures, the unrelenting storm of nature? Do you deny them their right to exist, to strike down the weak and scour civilization from nature's face? The only reason civilization exists today is because of traitors like yourself.

Jaheira: I will not be called a traitor to nature! Not even by another of nature's servants!

Xarana: You are no servant of nature, Jaheira. You are so accustomed to your blindness that it is the light you call evil and unnatural.

[Solstice]

I'm surprised Jaheira didn't try to kill Xarana after that. Intriguing, though-goes head to head with Jaheira, but gets trounced by Aerie.

[Tempest]

I also like your take on his interactions with the other NPC's, and am particularly happy to see that he'll get along with and have some philosphical deabates with Haer'Dalis, one of my favorite characters.

If there is one thing Riysler and Haer'Dalis agree upon, it is that all things end in death and destruction. The big difference is that Haer'Dalis celebrates entropy, while Riysler believes that the living should make the most of the life they do have, and that death is nothing to be afraid of. Riysler will inevitably end up talking about death a lot, so don't expect him to be an overly cheerful camper.

It would also be nice to have an NPC finally acknowledge the bizzare turn of events that leads to the PC sleeping with Jahiera...

Riysler's an old friend of Jaheira and Khalid, and possibly the one that married them, depending on how deep I get with his backstory-he's more than a little appalled that Jaheira's moved on so quickly, and can and does question whether she's in the right mind to make decisions about love. Strictly speaking, I could definitely see Riysler destroying Charname's romance with Jaheira without saying a word to the player. Charname might have to interfere and take steps to keep the romance intact-that will be a thorny issue when the time comes.

I'm not so keen on the preistess of Helm (though I'd love to see Lessan and Anomen get into a theological debate, but it would probably end badly and Anomen doesn't seem to have the intellect for any serious theology discussion)

Lessan is still just a fairly vague concept-there's another character I might do instead of her, who is a CN illusionist that believes the universe, life, and everything in them are ultimately just illusions. Very off in the head, very interesting to contemplate. Riysler and Xarana are the two real contenders for my project after Darian. However, Anomen would quite frankly be no match for Lessan in any discussion on theology, which Lessan would know and take advantage of. Lessan's basic evil-ness concept is the kind of person who maintains a veneer of respectability and goodness. It doesn't fool anyone, but it's also just enough to keep anyone from outright calling her what she is-a would-be tyrant.

or shadow druid (Faldorn is enough; I guess I'm not terribly enamoured of their world view, though I quite like your banter between Nalia and Xarana).

Sorry to say it, but Xarana is mostly likely going to take precedence over Riysler, simply because she's simpler to write. Riysler would have a personal quest and friendship, while Xarana's history has been reworked a little, and she probably won't have a quest. However, no two shadow druids are exactly alike, and Xarana is a bitter, hateful woman. It's quite likely she'll interfere in Charname's lovetalks with other npc's, both male and female, for the sole purpose of trying to disrupt and tear apart those relationships. She is an extremely prickly individual, and only treats a handful of characters with anything but contempt, hatred, and general ill will. I'm even contemplating Xarana corrupting a certain good-aligned character, first to neutral, then eventually to evil. It's very much up in the air, and would be a massive amount of work, rewriting every word that character says for each possible corrupted alignment, and would play merry hell with other mods that would treat the npc as per their natural Bioware persona (one in particular, but I won't say anything about it). If I end up doing it, it will probably be a separate component, released after Xarana's main gig.

[Tempest]

I've refined Xarana's persona and history a bit, since bug-hunting isn't the most mentally stimulating of activities:

As refined, Xarana is still an active member of the Shadow Circle when she joins the party. She will tell Charname that she was sent by her grove to attempt to negotiate with Faldorn and stop her activities, and in a certain light, this is true-she was so ordered. More pointedly, she is also under orders from the Shadow Circle to assassinate Faldorn for violating the Circle's strict and ruthless secrecy. Xarana will never once mention the Shadow Circle as anything but an organization Faldorn was connected with, and will be extremely secretive about her history past a certain point-the point when she joined the Shadow Circle. However, Jaheira and Cernd will certainly be able to guess her true affiliation.

If Charname is a druid, Xarana may also attempt to corrupt Charname into a Shadow Circle-esque view, and possibly attempt to recruit him or her into the Shadow Circle if she judges the player to be of sufficient character. This would lead into a significant quest relating to Xarana, and possibly an alignment shift for Charname if he/she decides to embrace the Shadow Circle's ways-it would definitely include a test of loyalty, which could lead to something dramatic-wiping out an entire village would not be an unusual test. At this rate, I may decide to do Riysler before Xarana, due to the amount of work Xarana's corruption of Charname might take. However, that is still only an idea-she might stop short of actually attempting to persuade Charname to join the Shadow Circle.

Xarana's relationships with the Bioware npc's have also been fleshed out, and needless to say, she does not get along well with most of them. Xarana is actively hostile to everyone but Korgan, Viconia, Valygar, and Cernd, though she is a bit too practical to let anything deterioriate into violence. If Xarana is in the party during Cernd's quest, a relationship between them may develop. I'm not certain whether it would actually veer into the grounds of an npc-npc romance, but it would lead to a redemption of sorts for Xarana-the things that occur during Cernd's quest will strike her on a deep and profoundly vulnerable level. She might not forsake her goals as a Shadow Druid, but the player would notice a marked shift in Xarana's attitude.

Also, there's a strong possibility Charname must be a race other than half-elf or half-orc in order for Xarana to join the party. She despises halfbreeds above all others, and she makes no exceptions-not even for herself. Xarana might very well leave the party in the event Charname pursues a mixed-race romance, as anyone who would create halfbreed abominations, or even the circumstances for them, is not someone she would wish to accompany. Another possibility is that she would have a lower reputation ceiling than other evil characters-a person praised by society is not a person she wishes to follow. She joins the party principally for her own benefit, but will not tolerate the company of someone she despises.

[berelinde]

... Riysler believes that the living should make the most of the life they do have, and that death is nothing to be afraid of.

Were it not for the fact that I know you despise Lathander with an unholy passion, I'd say the Riysler sounds almost Lathandrite in that view.

Strictly speaking, I could definitely see Riysler destroying Charname's romance with Jaheira without saying a word to the player. Charname might have to interfere and take steps to keep the romance intact-that will be a thorny issue when the time comes.

Yikes! Give this at least ten thinks if you decide to go this route. Doing *anything* without the player's say-so is distinctly un-cool.

OK: Riysler voices his fears to Jaheira, who decides to cool the relationship. <CHARNAME>, noticing the sudden distance, is given the opportunity to talk to Jaheira about what is wrong, is given the opportunity to reassure her that she's blameless, and repair their relationship with no penalty.

*Not* OK: Riysler voices his fears to Jaheira, who decides to cool the relationship. <CHARNAME> has to guess why Jaheira is upset, and <CHARNAME> has to jump through a lot of hoops to make it happen.

It's quite likely she'll interfere in Charname's lovetalks with other npc's, both male and female, for the sole purpose of trying to disrupt and tear apart those relationships.

In case you didn't know, this is something many people find distasteful. First time Kelsey butted in on an Anomen lovetalk, I uninstalled the mod, and haven't played it since. I am not alone in this.

[Solar's Harper]

*Not* OK: Riysler voices his fears to Jaheira, who decides to cool the relationship. <CHARNAME> has to guess why Jaheira is upset, and <CHARNAME> has to jump through a lot of hoops to make it happen.

In case you didn't know, this is something many people find distasteful. First time Kelsey butted in on an Anomen lovetalk, I uninstalled the mod, and haven't played it since. I am not alone in this.

1) Agreed, got enough of that with the Bioware normal track anyways.

2) Well since I have a neutral disposition about Kelsey, and an ever raging hate for Anomen, I guess I can say its only appropriate for romance conflicts to occur than just an NPC trying to stick more than their noses in business they're likely to get head bitten off for barging into.

Still, at the risk of saying biased, if I could uninstall Anomen, I would.
I just don't really like arrogance, pompous remarks, having my PC being used as a punching bag (not even Viconia goes that far with her S&M remarks and hints), or death threats at the crucial points, like the Slayer or TOB.

Honestly, doesn't rinse well and in my opinion, Anomen = disgrace.

But yeah, thats at the risk of sounding bias so I digress for now...

[Tempest]

In case you didn't know, this is something many people find distasteful. First time Kelsey butted in on an Anomen lovetalk, I uninstalled the mod, and haven't played it since. I am not alone in this.

I am aware of this. It is also very much in-character for Xarana to try to destroy relationships in the party. I'd say she wouldn't be any crueler than, say, Viconia, though. She is bound to be a disruptive character, given her extreme viewpoints-for Xarana, things are black and white, right and wrong, strong and weak, with no middle ground.

Yikes! Give this at least ten thinks if you decide to go this route. Doing *anything* without the player's say-so is distinctly un-cool.

OK: Riysler voices his fears to Jaheira, who decides to cool the relationship. <CHARNAME>, noticing the sudden distance, is given the opportunity to talk to Jaheira about what is wrong, is given the opportunity to reassure her that she's blameless, and repair their relationship with no penalty.

*Not* OK: Riysler voices his fears to Jaheira, who decides to cool the relationship. <CHARNAME> has to guess why Jaheira is upset, and <CHARNAME> has to jump through a lot of hoops to make it happen.

Early concepts are not finished ideas, Berelinde. Actually, I'm quite sure Jaheira would tell Riysler that despite his concerns, she is confident in her own path. I think he would raise doubts in her mind, make her question some things, but I very much doubt he could actually terminate the romance.

[berelinde]

Would have been the same for any of the others. Let private lovetalks play out uninterrupted. There's plenty of ways to get some face-time in on mod-added stuff.

When an NPC butts into a BioWare lovetalk, I can't help thinking that the NPC is just that sucky that he won't let the other NPC have some personal time with the PC. It assumes that the NPC is *there* for every private conversation the PC has with the other NPCs. Sure, there's general dialogues. I wouldn't have a problem with an NPC butting in on an Aerie/Jaheira spat, a Jaheira/Viconia spat, an Aerie/Viconia spat, or an Aerie/Jaheira/Viconia spat, because those happen in public. But when it's just the NPC and the PC, other NPCs are kind of outside the conversation. It's always possible to add public discussions, since Anomen was the only romanceable male, but assuming that all lovetalks happen in public is further than I want to go.

In general, I prefer to go by the assumption that if a BioWare NPC has interjections, the lovetalk is public, and fair game, but if there are no BioWare interjections, it's private.

[Tempest]

Xarana's interference in the romances would be basically akin to a romance conflict with another romancable npc, the exception being that Xarana is not romancable. She will take part in the cat fights between Viconia, Jaheira, and Aerie, but she aims to shut them all down, not compete for the player's interest. Anomen is going to be a much touchier case that will require some thought.

[jcompton]

Anomen is going to be a much touchier case that will require some thought.

Uh, why?

Berelinde's hands-off rule is silly on its face. The Anomen romance sequence has no "official" interjects because there was no "official interjector," making it a worthless test. Why would anyone grant that, of the four romanceable NPCs, only Anomen had the good sense to take the PC out of hearing distance each and every time before he cranked up the love theme?

It's an entirely different point whether or not players may find it tiresome having some new character hanging around saying "she's no good for you, you know" or "have you noticed she smells like rancid bacon?" or whatever it is you're planning to do. There is a tremendously important line between "Hello, I am demonstrating a character trait--I'm a meddler who respects no boundaries!" and "for chrissake i wish this modder wasnt quite so in love with INTERJECT_COPY_TRANS." So your test is not "will the Anomaniacs approve?" but "is this actually a worthwhile moment for all of the characters involved?"

[berelinde]

Or it can be a question of "Does this interjection make the interjector look like he's so insecure or so jealous that he has to eavesdrop every time a rival speaks to the PC?"

It's up to your perception of the NPC in question. If you think Anomen's perceptive enough to realize that Darian is even a rival and that Anomen's quite that insecure, that jealous, and that much of a stalker, go for it. It makes Anomen look like he's got serious control issues, but that's your call. But making a BioWare NPC look bad isn't necessarily a way to make your NPC look good.

Since you are making this call about Xarana, though, it isn't so much a question of NPC insecurity/control issues, as even that can be overshadowed by the Sue factor. Yes, an NPC that constantly has to get the last word, or has to participate in every conversation could well earn that title. Not every modder realizes when he has crossed that line, and with Anomen as such an easy mark, it isn't tough. Given Xarana's opinionated personality, that's going to be a fine line to walk.

Is player perception "silly on its face?" That's up to you to decide.

There are players that *want* Anomen/Aerie/Jaheira to get slapped down at every turn. You'll read tons of posts by folks like Solar's Harper, who enjoy seeing Anomen mocked. But there are also tons of posts from folks that appreciate an NPC who make another NPC, even a rival, look good. Here's a recent one, if you doubt this. To the best of my knowlege, this poster has not shown signs of being an "Anomaniac" in other forum posts.

But it's all about balance and being true to the character of the NPCs you are writing. Balance, because you'll probably want to strike a balance between writing an NPC that is a more than just silent filler in the party and one that dominates the party, but also between Xarana interjections in other NPC dialogues and NPC interjections in hers. If she is free to interject into all the lovetalks, are her dialogues given equal treatment, or are they sacred communications that other NPCs do not touch? If you can't bear the thought of allowing BioWare NPCs their time in the spoptlight, must Xarana have it all to herself? Trueness to NPC character is also a bit tricky, since everyone has his or her own perceptions of the BioWare lot. The best you can do is try to be as objective as possible.

Edit: and for those of you following the companion debate, here's a quick link to the PPG half. Who'd have thunk NPC interjections would prove such a divisive topic!

Edited by berelinde, 19 October 2007 - 02:54 AM.

[berelinde]

Sorry, Tempest, it occurs to me that I am driving the topic further off course.

This thread exists to talk about Riysler, Xarana, and other of Tempest's developing NPC concepts, not to indulge a debate on modding theory.

So tell us more about them, so we can get back to talking about *your* ideas, and leave the soapbox discussions for another time/place.

[Tempest]

I actually am trying to portray Anomen in a good light when he interjects in Darian's lovetalks, for one-I like Anomen, and know he is a deeply flawed individual, but I try to use his interjections in Darian's romance to bring out the best in him, and Darian will actually comment on Anomen's romance with Charname if she chooses him-he hints that he does still have feelings for Charname, but wishes them the best. Anomen is ultimately a good man, I feel, and Darian would see that.

Xarana may be highly opinionated, and as a writer, I've found that she does have a tendency to get the last word on people, but she's far from perfect. Aerie is actually her most natural foil character-I've always seen Aerie as being much more intelligent and cunning than meets the eye, and she will take Xarana down a few notches and do so repeatedly. Xarana does have her sore spots and chinks in her emotional armor, and Aerie, like she is with Viconia and Jaheira, is quite good at recognizing and targeting those spots. And as an aside, Xarana is developing a tendency to use nature-related metaphors and call people various animals, though not quite to the extent of Cernd or Haer'Dalis.

Love is something Xarana does not believe in. She acknowledges lust, and practical considerations for choosing a mate, as you'll see a bit of in her Aerie sketch.

Here are three early sketches of Xarana's romance-related banters, with Aerie, Jaheira, and Anomen respectively.


Xarana: So, it appears the maimed little pigeon lusts for the leader of our little band.

Aerie: I do not l-lust for him, Xarana! He's a wonderful and strong person, unlike you!

Xarana: Tsk, tsk. How very civilized of you-at once denying and admitting my accusation. What makes you think he lusts for you in return? You are nothing more than a little pigeon who's lost her wings, and wants someone to carry her along.

Aerie: There is more to life than that! There is love, and truth, and beauty! Things you will never understand!

Xarana: And why would I care to understand them, pigeon? They are artifacts of civilization, nothing more, and when civilization falls and nature is made clean once again, they will cease to have any meaning.

Aerie: But... but so long as civilization endures, they have meaning! They will still be here-*I* will still be here, long after you join your goddess in death!


Xarana: Jaheira, may I speak with you? There is a most intriguing little matter I've been thinking about, and would like your input.

Jaheira: From your tone, I suspect you would like only an opportunity to mock me.

Xarana: Not at all. You see, in this realm of corruption and evil some call Athkatla, I've been hearing tales about your adventures on the Sword Coast. Quite dramatic, especially those conflicts with the Shadow Circle in the Cloakwood Forest. Now, the really interesting point is this halfbreed man you traveled with-this Khalid. People say you were mates, and quite devoted to one another. Yet I also understand that he is now dead, and you already turn to <CHARNAME> for a new mate.

Jaheira: Khalid was not my 'mate'! He was my husband whom I loved!

Xarana: Ah. You loved him very much, did you not!

Jaheira: Of course I did! And if you are daring to suggest I did not...

Xarana: I suggest nothing. I approve of your replacement mate, for all that he is an abomination. Seeing as how you yourself are a monstrosity of nature, like attracts like. Within those considerations, you made an excellent choice.

Jaheira: He is not my mate, and he is not a 'replacement'! I loved Khalid, and that is the end of it.

Xarana: Within your own mind, I imagine that might indeed be the end of it.


Xarana: What is that I see you doing, Anomen? Scrawling words on a sheet of parchment?

Anomen: It is nothing of importance.

Xarana: Your denial makes me think otherwise. Hmmm, let me see... why, it's an attempt at poetry! How droll.

Anomen: I do not like the tone of your voice, druid. Spit your venom and leave me be.

Xarana: Why would I spit venom? Do you secretly believe you are not worthy of <CHARNAME>? You strong and loyal-very worthwhile qualities in a mate, and your lusts, well, I imagine she might perhaps reciprocate. Of course, I wonder how she might react if I were to show her this. Flattering and praising her beauty is one thing, but this is quite another. Why, it's almost romantic.

Anomen: No! Do not-

Xarana: Why? Do you not want her to think less of you?

Anomen: You know I am not worthy of her, Xarana. Please, do not show her that poem.

Xarana: Considering I believe we are within earshot of her, that would not be necessary. But you confirmed my suspicions at any rate, coward.

[Tempest]

Haven't done much thinking about that concept aside from the basic principle of him believing everything to be an illusion, though. Interesting as the basic concept of his beliefs is, every attempt I've made to develop a character out of that concept has ended pretty dismally-it's just not veryinteresting to write. There is a fourth concept in the works, but Riysler and Xarana are by far the most well-developed, and most likely next projects.

[Solar's Harper]

There are players that *want* Anomen/Aerie/Jaheira to get slapped down at every turn. You'll read tons of posts by folks like Solar's Harper, who enjoy seeing Anomen mocked.

I resent that.

Just to clear up my perspective a bit, this comes from personal experience with similar people as Anomen (save the whole honor thing).

Either way Anomen gets more than enough slack with his dialog. Its the PC more than anything that deserves it after the way he can treat her (both paths) from time to time. If he had the option to stop being like that for more than two seconds of non-modded work. Then... He would recieve a bit less hate from me at least.

Now then, back on topic

Haven't done much thinking about that concept aside from the basic principle of him believing everything to be an illusion,

"everything being an illusion" is very similar to the Dustmen ideology (Planescape ref). Maybe a bit of similarity between the two maybe? hm, interesting.

[Tempest]

Actually, Dustmen believe everyone is dead and they just don't know it yet. This character would be more akin to the Signers. But any new npc work wont' happen until I get Darian finished for both SoA and ToB.