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#21 Solar's Harper

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 12:59 AM

I'm actually somewhat worried about them replacing a race. I've not had an opportunity to try everyone of them, but for one of them to vanish, and to be replaced with a Tiefling...

:(

Hey! Tieflings are still good, if you know how to use 'em, besides they're interesting.

Honestly I'm not looking foward to any race being replaced either. Whenever they change such a big arena, there's more things going wrong than right by the time they're finished.

And as far as gnomes go, well who would wanna kick those turnip lovers out anyways?
*ahem* no allusions meant ^_^

I'd be happy if they replaced any race with Half-Halfings. Quarterlings?


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#22 Deathsangel

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 03:57 AM

It seems that they aren't talking about making as big a change as they did from 2nd to 3rd edition. "It's still going to be the D20 system." is more or less a direct quote from the Gencon announcement. Some things are going to change though. If it's similar to the way the latest Star Wars ruleset went, then they're going to simplify some things while making others rather more complex. Some changes that seem likely:

Classes are changing so that you have to select which abilities you want to develop, rather than automatically gaining the same ones as every other member of the class. So a rogue won't necessarily gain sneak attack, if you don't want it, but might gain some abilities that are now available only from particular prestige classes. If you've enough ranks in Stealth, you might be able to gain some of the abilities of a shadowdancer, or ones similar to an assassin if you select different talents.
Skills are being simplified. Some are merging - Stealth will probably replace Hide and Move Silently, Perception(?) will replace Spot, Search and Listen. There also won't be skill points any more. Instead, you'll get a certain number of skills that you are Trained in, and others that you Focus on. Anyone will be able to use a skill with a bonus of 1/2 level + characteristic bonus, but you'll get a bonus if you're trained and a larger one if you're focused.
No more iterative attacks - if you want to attack more than once in a round you'll need to select Talents or Feats that enable it.
At least one of the races from the PHB is going, probably replaced by the Tiefling.
One of the current base classes is going, with my bet being on the Monk.
More racial abilities come into play and can be developed, and it's possible that there will be racial classes, rather as there were in Original D&D.
It's likely that characters will have special abilities that they can use a certain number of times in an encounter, or per day, or at will. This suggests something like the Tome of Battle system, or along the lines of the Reserve feats from Complete Mage.


Yeah, I looked a bit into it now all over the place. I doubt about the common strategy for most of it though. What I mean?

Well, they want to simplify the system (as IMO they already tried from 2 to 3/3.5 E) as to also attract new customers. I doubt this will help. Roleplaying is something you are attracted to or not. Simplifying the system like that will actually, I reckon, hold people back as too game like and not realistic.

I doubt if the different choices at different levels do not actually make it easier to play. Of course it gives freedom, but it also makes experienced players that teach the new ones overwhelm them with info (something of which I always get the complement for bringing it slowly and managable) of choices and 'paths' they can take.

Yeah, racial classes I can remember, but I wouldn't mind a book more like a compendium for racial substitution levels as they stand in the 'Races of...' books. I don't by these books for I don't like all the material in it... too much half freaky races (though you also have a third party book for that with even half-corpereal races... but they worn for this) and things that go a bit far. I don't see the Illuminati develop from humans via evolution... what brings blue glyphs around your head? I just don't think they need to put that all back.

I rather like the Monk, but I can understand the descision, if it would be this class.

I actually have no trouble with the Gnomes identity. Seeing them, to as they say in my country go quick around the corner (which means saying something rough), as a more friendly type of Dwarf with love and joy for nature and gems, but not for true hard work. They are in between the halflings and dwarves in my eyes... If they would through them away they will take away their setting Dragonlance though as there they play a very special role. I wonder how they would convert it. Actually, for many pure races this indeed true, Ebberon would be annoyed if the Halflings go and so on... their the half race of Half-Orcs play a role in one of the Dragon Markes houses. Still I agree with Kellen that half-races are more easily made (add stats devide by two to do it simply) thus such a race can be easily scraped... still adding Tiefling. They are nice, but just as much sub-race as half-race. Why them instead of Aasimar, I do not understand unless you want a more dark world...

I have my doubts as well about abilities usuable per encounter. Those that have it like i.e. Warlock and Dragon Shaman are now called under the very powerful, if not overpowered classes. If it goes that way that means we have very powerful classes and lot of things are going to be slightly over the top. Certainly if they introduce the new HP system of the Starwars thing. This is quoted from internet: You gain your hit dice back per hour, only critical hits cause now wound points of which you have much less.... That doesn't sound realistic, and thus right to me, hp is already a bit odd, but to let it come back per hour and only criticals do real pain. That means you can combat unendlessly and takes the edge away from it.

P.s. I wouldn't be surprised if they did because they need better cash flow. As of late books weren't selling that well as well... they weren't bringing out that good books as a lot of people also state in forums and reviews.


They've probably lost my money, although I'll but a PHB just to look through the rules. Looking back overe release dates in the past though it isn't that strange that there's a 4th edition 10 years after the 3rd. It's 3.5 that really looks like an anomaly.


I actually enjoyed 3.5 for its well deserved given upgrades to things like some classes, the very complicated jump check making people wanting always to be 'very large for their race' and a few spells that got, IMO, nice overalls (though I was more for the Mordakainen, Melf, Bigby etc. names from Greyhawk).

I can understand the new version in years, but I always had the feeling 3.0 was short lived and 3.5 was it well made upgrade. That is out shorter and I rather enjoy this system, whereas AD&D i.e. had all those things with armors having different protection values against different weapons. Given in that makes it more realistic, like also the wound penalty to THACO (no that is not in BG2), but made it game with just a bit too many rules. I am afraid 4th edition is just going to be a bit too over the top with cutting down the rules.

Or better yet where in nine hells have some willingly demonic races gone, such as the Fey'ri.


Fiend Folio in 3.0 Edition if I am correct

My friends and I have agreed, though-we're sticking with 3.5E. We like it, and don't see the need for a new system.


With my stated doubts and such I indeed will certainly stick with 3.5. I may look in 4, but even if it better than I thought I probably (99,5%) stick with it cause of all the material that is already there and I am not going to buy the upgrade.
Maybe when they have seen their errors, refert some things back. Make it good compatible with 3.5 again... then I'll buy 4.5 stuff ;)

That was my, as much as I tried, argumental opinion.

Last thing that crosses my mind is that it is of course a subjective opinion and I rather enjoy 3.5 seeing the changes from AD&D (miss some stuff though, but Unearthed Arcana can help with that... for some parts, as well as house rules), but it always was indeed a steep learning curve. More so because we experienced lot get all books in there that we can get... Renewal might be good thing and perhaps I will be proven wrong. If not, I won't trade my books this time so I always will have them for a good round of 3.5 D&D ;)

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#23 berelinde

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 04:11 AM

I'll likely buy a 4E Player's Handbook, just for the heck of it, but I don't know if I'll be in a hurry to switch. I am still getting used to 3.5E, and I just bought a boatload of books for it.

That's always the way of things.

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#24 Isilven

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 05:39 AM

I, personally, will continue to play me and my husband's abomination of 3E+3.5E (I'm sorry, the whole "U GET 2 RESTRICTED MAGICS FOR BEING A SPECIALIST MAGE" crap is...well...crap) until I get dragged kicking and screaming into 4E.
It's the way I did it with transitioning 2E ->3E :D Unlike my transition from 1E to 2E. I was like "WHAT? I CAN BE AN ELVEN CLERIC NOW?! ELVES ARE NO LONGER A CLASS?!? :D"

If 4E is just meant to be a dumbing-down, I really don't want to play it. I hope that D&D players will research it like we've been doing, and by that can make a decision. I personally would not want to play with someone who learns D&D from a dumbed-down system like that, and especially not if they're screwing with the races like this.
Oh well. Perhaps I'm just being stodgy and an old coot because I've been playing this game for 12 years. *shakes fist* Stupid kids, get off my lawn.

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#25 berelinde

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 06:22 AM

I've been playing for 30. I'll adapt eventually.

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#26 Menelanna

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 06:34 AM

I just started playing about a year ago and have gotten the hang of 3.5 rules. Plus all the books my DM has are 3.5. I don't think I will be updating anytime soon.

Plus I feel that the changes made should either be more racial options like the ones mentioned. And maybe a few new classes (especially new prestige classes) but not getting rid of some. I for one love the monk class. If monks were lost in 4E rules, I would still talk my DM into letting me use it.
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#27 Lord Ernie

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 07:55 AM

Heh. I love how the announcement is that they are smoothing the gameplay, and the reaction is 'dumbing down'. I'm not going to judge the system until I've seen it.

I have my doubts as well about abilities usuable per encounter. Those that have it like i.e. Warlock and Dragon Shaman are now called under the very powerful, if not overpowered classes. If it goes that way that means we have very powerful classes and lot of things are going to be slightly over the top.

Eh. The existence of such abilities now is irrelevant; the power of a class and/or abilty can't possibly be evaluated in a vaccuum. If every class gets once per encounter abilities of comparable power level, or they balance it out with others, who's to say this sort of thing can't bring great gameplay?

I always rather disliked and once per day or week stuff as it is, since those kind of limitations favour enemies and make you count the amount of hours to estimate the re-usage (cfr. a cleric's having to pray once per day for spells vs. arcane caster's 8 hours of rest requirement).

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#28 Deathsangel

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 03:25 AM

(I'm sorry, the whole "U GET 2 RESTRICTED MAGICS FOR BEING A SPECIALIST MAGE" crap is...well...crap)

"WHAT? I CAN BE AN ELVEN CLERIC NOW?! ELVES ARE NO LONGER A CLASS?!? :D"


In AD&D specialist mages were also restricted, only without choice. They always had one opposite school or even two they could not cast from... That is not a true 3.0 or 3.5 crap thing. You may find so, but don't blame it just on that edition but on TSR, okay? ;)

I never played 1st edition, but as I've seen it implemented in DSA. I am not in favor of a race being a class... it feels a bit weird to my taste.

Heh. I love how the announcement is that they are smoothing the gameplay, and the reaction is 'dumbing down'. I'm not going to judge the system until I've seen it.

I have my doubts as well about abilities usuable per encounter. Those that have it like i.e. Warlock and Dragon Shaman are now called under the very powerful, if not overpowered classes. If it goes that way that means we have very powerful classes and lot of things are going to be slightly over the top.

Eh. The existence of such abilities now is irrelevant; the power of a class and/or abilty can't possibly be evaluated in a vaccuum. If every class gets once per encounter abilities of comparable power level, or they balance it out with others, who's to say this sort of thing can't bring great gameplay?

I always rather disliked and once per day or week stuff as it is, since those kind of limitations favour enemies and make you count the amount of hours to estimate the re-usage (cfr. a cleric's having to pray once per day for spells vs. arcane caster's 8 hours of rest requirement).


Hm, maybe my use of words was poor. Of course it can be great gameplay, that I agree with, as well as of course as I thought I said I was being a bit rough in my last post due to time restrictions and restrictions of simple text messages.
However, they have talked about keeping the other classes. Unless these get an overhaul as well (as I have seen for the Paladin, which is very good (!), but can't find the link) it will be slightly unbalanced. Now not everything needs to be balanced, I mean lets not over do it and I agree in the current system monsters are slightly more favored. However, I as a DM, unless it is a dungeon crawl, but I make sure there are clearly 'safe' spots, do not constantly attack my PC's so most of the times uses per day are sufficient for a day.
I guess it is a flavor you like. I like combat to be slightly dangerous and PC's can die with me. Permanent. It is roleplaying. Sh*t happens. Making things a little over the top makes it shift more into the Iron Kingdoms Roleplaying game. Where everything is a bit over the top, balancing it all out.
On a side note, it is stated in the books that as wizard or cleric you can study or pray later on the day for new spells, if you left a few slots open in the beginning. I think it is PHB even that states this. Thus you are then less restricted to estimate re-usage stuff.
Of course, for everyone there own thing and own system. If I see the general feel, people seem to like 3.5, but that was probably to for AD&D back than (was there at the shift, but wasn't so global active so to say). I don't reckon smoothing out game play is 'dumbing down', I even state it may be more difficult at some points than now, I reckon. I just wonder how they will do it, for it is now straightforward and I wonder if uses/encounter helps to smooth things. Yes, it is less 'tracking', but if it helps? As well as the other stated opinions, which remain subjective.
I just have my doubts, but I keep it open to be surprised as stated in my other post. I am just slightly skeptical, certainly over the fact that they say they think (quoted!): easier gameplay will attract new players. Either you like it or you don't. I don't think smoother/easier rules will help with that.

@Menelanna: There are a lot of Prestige Classes out there. Also racial ones. WotC has an overview list of theirs, but there are also many custom made ones out there. What do you miss, if I may ask?

Edited by Deathsangel, 23 August 2007 - 03:27 AM.

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#29 berelinde

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 03:32 AM

I wasn't too happy with the way paladins got nerfed by 3E, but that might just be my take on it. They're still a lot of fun. That sounds so much like a contradiction.

Who knows, if, after reading the PHB of 4E, I might even like it.

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#30 oralpain

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 12:13 AM

Races were not classes in AD&D 1st edition, only in D&D.

I haven't bought anty 3 or 3.5E material, and unless the utterly unforseeable occurs, I won't be buying any 4th edition material either. I'm rather happy with the conglomerate of 1st and 2nd edition AD&D that I've been honing to my idea of near perfection for the last 12 years.

I'm sure I'll read the 4th edition core materials and rip off any good ideas that I don't already have implimented though.

#31 Lysan Lurraxol

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 12:24 AM

4th Edition? Ugh.

Okay, now Hasbro/WotC are just out to get money. There isn't really a good reason to make a new edition. 2nd edition was made as an improvement/more advanced form than 1st, 3rd edition was created because 2nd edition got a bit out of hand. 3.5 wasb created to "streamline" 3rd edition. I would love to see WotC try and justify this decision. :rolleyes:

*rant over*

Sorry about that, I just get annoyed with WotC, I don't play much d+d, but I buy some of the books, and I can see that 2nd edition had a lot of detail and creativity, wheras 3/3.5 seemed a little munchkiny (it's a word :) ), kinda obsessed with feats and prestige classes, ick, miniatures. I don't really want to see another edition, because I'm worried it'll have even less detail, and be even more munchkiny.


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#32 Daphne

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 01:28 AM

I'd heard rumors from my brother about which class was being removed, and he came to the conclusion that it was the bard. I can see it as plausible, what with it normally being used in a 5th player sort of situation, but that's just suck a whole bunch. The bard is my class, and I'd be sad to see it gone. :\

Some of the stuff from it seems interesting (like the merging of hide and move silently), but I remember trying a catch-all perception from Palladium's HU2 and I really didn't like it. Maybe I'm just a fan of overcomplicating games.

The transition from 3.5 to 4 just seems so short, though. I wouldn't say that 3.5 is superfluous or anything, but I remember when I'd just learned 3e and 3.5 came out, and it wasn't that long ago. WOTC should focus on the quality of their books instead of trying to chuck a new system out there. For example, the last monster manual (or the one before, it was either MM4 or MM5) had monsters in there that were just normal monsters with class levels. Nothing with tricky level adjustment, either. They had some examples of drow fighters and drow clerics and really, any DM that can't figure out how to add 5 levels of a class to a drow really needs to figure out how to do it themselves rather than relying on a crutch like that.

And I absolutely hope they keep psionics. What will happen to the poor old mindflayers?

#33 Bluenose

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 05:25 AM

I'd heard rumors from my brother about which class was being removed, and he came to the conclusion that it was the bard. I can see it as plausible, what with it normally being used in a 5th player sort of situation, but that's just suck a whole bunch. The bard is my class, and I'd be sad to see it gone. :\

Some of the stuff from it seems interesting (like the merging of hide and move silently), but I remember trying a catch-all perception from Palladium's HU2 and I really didn't like it. Maybe I'm just a fan of overcomplicating games.

The transition from 3.5 to 4 just seems so short, though. I wouldn't say that 3.5 is superfluous or anything, but I remember when I'd just learned 3e and 3.5 came out, and it wasn't that long ago. WOTC should focus on the quality of their books instead of trying to chuck a new system out there. For example, the last monster manual (or the one before, it was either MM4 or MM5) had monsters in there that were just normal monsters with class levels. Nothing with tricky level adjustment, either. They had some examples of drow fighters and drow clerics and really, any DM that can't figure out how to add 5 levels of a class to a drow really needs to figure out how to do it themselves rather than relying on a crutch like that.

And I absolutely hope they keep psionics. What will happen to the poor old mindflayers?


I suspect that the bard will not be in the first PHB myself, though I'm not yet absolutely certain. I do think the Sorcerer will be missing, replaced by the Warlock class. And there's going to be at least one race out, gnomes being favourite atm.

I don't expect psionics to be in the initial book, and I'm not certain mind flayers will make the first MM. However, it seems likely that there will be a second PHB and MM a year after the initial release, which I would expect to contain more classes, races, and system options. Since Eberron 4E will probably be released in 2009 and psionics is an important part of the setting, I'd expect psionics rules in the PHB2 (or whatever they call it).

And MM4 and MM5 both had examples of races with class levels in. That really was a waste of pages.

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#34 Dave Greenblade

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 08:39 AM

From everything I heard, they're changing it just too much in 4th Edition. And why bother to change anyway? 3rd Edition was going just fine!
I actually think they'll lose more clients now, than if they just continued with 3rd Edition supplements.

Anyway, even if I didn't hate 4th Edition, I wouldn't buy any pf it anyway, because all the money I spent on 3rd Edition would be a wa&ste. I guess me and my friends are just gonnaz play 3rd Edition, and pretend 4th never existed :D
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#35 Nuuskamuikkunen

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 01:49 AM

"Druid: Spellcasting will take a back seat to their wildshape abilities, which they will be able to do a lot more often, although only in the shapes they have already chosen. They have a few nature based spells that they can cast in humanoid form."

Lame.Lame.Lame.Lame.

#36 Dark-Mage

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 05:22 AM

Anyone bought the books yet then? Any first impressions or feedback etc to offer?

#37 Bluenose

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 05:52 AM

Anyone bought the books yet then? Any first impressions or feedback etc to offer?


I have them, and have for a couple of weeks. I still haven't played any games yet, and that's the real test of a set of rules, at least in my opinion. I'll put something together this weekend based on reading them.

I will make on comment - the best DMG I've seen.

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#38 Tempest

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 05:53 AM

I've looked them over in the store, and I'm not impressed. I hope you like lots of combat, because that's about all every class can do-in 4E, most of the books and just about every class feature has to do with combat. I'm not sure if I've seen a single ability that doesn't have an immediate combat application.

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#39 Dark-Mage

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 10:21 AM

Pretty sure that is what they said they were doing. making combat extensive as opposed to story based.

Read a five star review over on Amazon earlier with someone talking about how the new core classes are so great and how they all have so many things they can do in combat as opposed to skills that had no direct relationship to combat. Yeah, funnily enough his group consisted of his 11 year old daughter and a couple of her school friends.

*rolls eyes*

#40 Bluenose

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 12:33 AM

I?m basing these impressions of D&D 4th Edition on reading the books rather than playing the game, which isn?t really the best way to do it. Unfortunately I haven?t yet had a chance to do more than read it, as my PnP group wants to complete our current campaigns and we?re also interested in trying some of the new RPGs that have been coming out. We?re playing Star Wars Sage Edition at the moment, and want to try Mongoose Publishing?s versions of Traveller and Runequest. So this is a ?how it looks? rather than ?how it plays? impression.

The Player?s Hand Book (PHB) is the core of the system, and where the game has changed most from 3rd edition. It still retains the core D20 system, and it still retains classical abstractions that are such a part of D&D such as Classes, Levels, Hit Points, etc. However after that it differs quite significantly from previous versions.

One of the most significant ways things have changed is in characters ?powers?. Previously characters had various abilities that came as part of their class and rarely differed from character to character. Now there are often several choices. Where before a paladin had Smite Evil a certain number of times each day, in 4E a paladin can select from Smites that have varied effects which can even heal or protect their allies as well as damage enemies. All characters gain these at the same rate of progression. This affects most severely previous editions spell-casters such as Wizards or Clerics, who have significantly fewer options than they used to, but also classes such as Fighters and Rogues who have many more. These powers come as At-Will (which you can do when you want), Encounter (which you can do once per encounter and need a five-minute rest to regain) and Daily (which need an extended rest of about 8 hours to regain). A majority of these powers are combat related, but a significant number are more likely to be used in social situations and apply bonuses to various rolls.

Another major change is that in 4E any attack actually has to make an attack roll to succeed, even spells. Where previously a Fireball spell would be cast and it?s targets would make a Reflex saving throw for ½ damage, now the person casting the Fireball targets the Reflex Defence of anyone in the area and only does full damage if they hit and ½ on a miss. This works well in SWSE, where the same system operates. Defences increase at the same rate as attacks, with +1 for every 2 character levels.

Damage is another area that has seen significant changes. At low levels characters have a lot more than they would have in previous editions, with a 1st level fighter I created as a test having 31 hit points. They increase at a slower rate - projected to 20th level he had somewhere around 150hp, which isn?t a huge total. Hit points quite explicitly are not just actual physical effects, but also reflect skill, luck, and resolve. As such, sometimes morale effects increase them, and damage doesn?t reflect solely physical wounds. This is something that was stated back in 1st edition days, and then seems to have been ignored till now. A lot of the abilities of the Warlord class affect hit points in a way that implies morale effects rather than healing. The Healing Surge mechanism is an interesting one, since it acts as a limit to the amount of healing a character can receive in the course of an adventuring day. I think the SWSE Condition Track mechanic works well, but I?m not sure that this looks as good.

Where I think the system will work well is at low levels of play, where characters will have a greater variety of abilities compared to previous editions. In particular, in previous editions a Wizard out of spells or a cleric out of healing was usually a sign to stop and rest. Now there is less need to stop, since the Daily powers are a less significant part of a character?s abilities when their Encounter powers are available. At higher levels, previously spell-casters had a lot more options than they do now, though Rituals may change that. There will be a lot less of the ?Rocket Tag? style of play that often seemed to dominate high level play with spell-casters.

The thing I really dislike about the book is the Index (poor at 1 page) and the total lack of a glossary. Some terms are only defined in one place, and that isn?t always the place I?d expect to find them. The section which tells you how to make an attack roll or skill check falls directly between the section on creating character backgrounds and the section on gaining levels in Chapter 1, although it?s also explained in more relevant places.

Moving on to the Dungeon Masters Guide (DMG), it?s an excellent book. It really does a good job of talking about how to create adventures, it gives better information on world-building than previous DMGs, and I would recommend unreservedly as a starting point for people interested in making interesting adventures and campaigns.

The Monster Manual is a book that if you accept the basic philosophy of the edition will suit most DMs and presumably players. Some of the monsters that were left out are a surprise, as are some of those that made it in. A few old favourites have made a comeback, though I?m not holding out much hope for the flumph yet.

As for the physical presentation of the books, they seem fine to me. The layout is crisp and there are sufficient examples to make play clear. Some people have reported problems with the text smudging easily. It hasn?t happened with my books, but there have been a lot of complaints on some web-sites. The art is a bit hit and miss, which I find usual with most RPG books. And I should note that the Wizards web site is expected to provide a lot of support in the future, though for a cost that doesn?t seem to be entirely settled. They already have some interesting articles and adventures available for free, and the Rules Compendium section was up for a time in an apparent trial.

Now I'll address the two big controversies about 4th Edition. Firstly, there's the claim that there are no rules for anything but combat or at least that there's a heavy emphasis on combat in the system. This is to a large degree true. A lot of characters don't have anything special they can do outside a combat situation, although that's not true for all. There aren't rules for some things that did have rules in 3.x, such as Crafting and Profession skills. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Earlier editions lacked such rules yet they didn't lack in role-playing, so I can see no reason why 4th Edition should be worse at this. I'm not even convinced that you need to keep track of where characters and enemies are more precisely than in older editions, as I always found it useful even in 1st edition especially where magic was concerned.

Secondly, there's a claim that too many of the core races and classes have been changed. Gnomes and Half-orcs have been removed, replaced by Tieflings and Dragonborn. Druids, Sorcerers, Barbarians and Bards are missing, with Warlocks and the Warlord class in. None of this actually bothers me, as it's not unusual for things to change from edition to edition. If I had a particular character who couldn't be converted that might make me annoyed, but I don't and I'm not convinced that it's impossible to create a reasonable approximation of most characters anyway. I'm even less concerned with the claim that by chainging the "fluff" the game is no longer D&D. That ignores the fact that people have been changing it from the very beginning in homebrew games and the large number of campaign settings that remove, ignore or change aspects that don't fit in.

So, am I pro- or anti-? I'm on the fence still. Some things don't read as if I'll like them, yet I've had that experience before and still found that they play well in practice. Other things look like fun, but again may not turn out as I want. I'm still happy I bought the rules, even if I don't end up playing them much, simply because I am a rules junkie and there's some interesting concepts in the rules. But until I've played at least a short campaign I think I'll keep my opinions set on neutral.

Back from the brink.

Like RPGs? Like Star Wars? Think combining the two would be fun? Read Darths and Droids, and discover the line "Jar Jar, you're a genius".

These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.