20 replies to this topic

[Solar's Harper]

Neverwinter Nights 2 is a good game and it has a relatively satisfactory storyline for the main plot, but what is it that the developers missed? Anything from gameplay, to the character development etc...

I guess I'll start with the lack of depth with certain characters, such as Neeshka. I think that a bit more back story and prehaps more opportunity for the PC to interact with her in more different ways than just saying in response to something like:
Neeshka: "Did you see the way he ignored me? He thanked you, but it was like I didn't even exist. I helped too, you know.
PC: "You still have my thanks, Neeshka"

And so on.
So anyone else got any ideas on how the game could've stayed on par with some of its predecessors (BG2 sticks to mind)?

[Tempest]

I agree-character development got badly shafted in NWN2, which is really a shame. Half or more of the characters (Khelgar, Elanee, Casavir, Grobnar, Sand, Shandra...) are one-dimensional stereotypes with no depth to them at all. Jaheira and Cernd are proof we can have druids with depth, especially since the class is so ripe with ideas for a deep and complicated character. Khelgar's a dwarf-and it seems the writers' line on him pretty much ended there. There are hints of something deeper to him, but none of them are picked up on. Sand is an elven, not-quite-so-evil Edwin, Casavir is as boring as paladins come, Grobnar is a hammier Jan with music and no turnips, and Shandra is just Mary Sue.

Even the characters who do have some depth basically get written out of the story by the stereotypes. Neeshka had the potential to be a very interesting character, and certainly had the makings of a beautiful romance, but Elanee and Shandra basically forced her into just being the party's thief. She had all the makings of a wonderful character, but the final product never materialized. She deserved much more.

Ditto for Bishop. Pretty much everything I said about Neeshka can be said about Bishop, substituting "Casavir" for "Elanee" and "archer" for "thief".

Zhjaeve and Ammon felt like they were pretty much just slapped into the party to give you a cleric and a warlock. That they join the party late does not necessarily mean they are poorly developed-look at Sarevok in BG:ToB-but all their motivations and personalities were laid out within five minutes of meeting them, and they didn't go anywhere with the potentially interesting characters.

[Solar's Harper]

Even the characters who do have some depth basically get written out of the story by the stereotypes.

Yep, you've got a point there Tempest. One thing that annoyed me more than the lack of character development, was the black & white lines you are given for dialog when dealing with NPCs such as Khelgar. I mean, just because he's a dwarf, not even Korgan was all: "Oh look there's a bunch of sailors over there, let's kill 'em all lads!" sometimes even 'that' loudmouth knew a better option when it came his way.
And I suppose its even worse for a female PC when it comes to Bishop, you could end up being the 'nicest' person to him in the party, in evil terms. And he'll still treat you like how Eldoth from BG1 treated Skie in his mood-swings. Not even laying off a bit y'know.

Neeshka had the potential to be a very interesting character, and certainly had the makings of a beautiful romance, but Elanee and Shandra basically forced her into just being the party's thief.

Sure was a shame... I wonder on how this can be corrected, romances add flavour to games such as this, and her character certainly would have made well worth the effort on the part of a male PC .
Plus lets not forget the female PCs always being considered afterthoughts except for situations only related to activity outside of the interaction of your party. A flaw already noted in NWN2's predecessors.

[whatbrick]

Some missing elements in NWN2 that I've noticed:

• Character developement. Covered by others.
  
• Character customization options. It almost doesn't exist.
  
• Unique and interesting quests. There wasn't much that wasn't a FedEx or a contract-killing.
  
• The ability to say "No!" I wanted to tell Lord Nasher to stuff his decaying Keep where the sun doesn't shine. How is he still the Lord after all the FUBAR that has happened under his rule?

Here are some things that I like about NWN2:

• Toying with the toolset.
  
• Filling the gaps in the character customization options (I know, I'm a masochist).
  
• The warlock. I know its broken in some respects, but I just have fun playing as one. I'm thrilled that it was included with the game.
  
• Some of the player-made mods that are out. Once again, the cream of the adventure crop is going to come from the community.

Plus lets not forget the female PCs always being considered afterthoughts except for situations only related to activity outside of the interaction of your party. A flaw already noted in NWN2's predecessors.

Actually this is one of the few games where both male and female PCs are equally slapped in the face with mediocrity, so it seems like the developers are learning.

[Kellen]

Missing.
Alignments besides LG and CE.
Am I the only one who seemed to see that Chaotic acts were most often evil, and Lawful most often good. What happens to my poor CG cleric when she's consigned to either uphold the law, or murder. My LE Assassin when he's either to protect the city, uphold the law(not a bad thing), and vanguard the victimized, or break the law constantly, murder in the streets and in broad daylight, and go about needless destruction of property.

Character variety. Not necessarily development(which is also sorely needed) but variety. In BG we had 4 rogues. NWN2 1. BG2 3 Clerics 2 Druids. NWN2 1 of each. Sure they covered every class, but if you happen not to like Neeshka then your consigned to walk over every trap, break or knock every locked chest/door, or play a rogue yourself. If you don't like Elanee your missing out on a healer for quite a portion of the game. Not to mention that there isn't a single Half-Orc, Halfling, or Half-Elf(I think) joinable NPC.

The ability to not take someone along on your quest. I mean not saving Khelgar and/or Neeshka. Telling Elanee to buzz off, letting the wizards barbecue Qara, etc.

Non-stereotyped allies.

Sense. How was this druid Elanee tracking you for that long unnoticed. Hide and Move Silently are not class skills. High Listen and Spot...

Many things missing.

[Rastor]

Unique and interesting quests. There wasn't much that wasn't a FedEx or a contract-killing.

Can I ask what you want instead? Most quests in BG1/2 are of the same variety.

The one thing I really wanted was a romance with Neeshka. Also, the Elanee romance consists of what is basically a one-night stand - these definitely should have been developed more.

I thought that character development was decent throughout the first act of the game but then they dropped it off a lot, that was rather annoying (Khelgar and Neeshka are about the only two characters that really had a defined personality - yes, they're stereotypes but so is Gimli .

There were a very limited number of quests that didn't advance the main plot. There really should have been more.

The spells that were included with the game sucked... I want much more variety than the five or so we get per level (no Time Stop! )

[Solar's Harper]

The one thing I really wanted was a romance with Neeshka. Also, the Elanee romance consists of what is basically a one-night stand - these definitely should have been developed more.

Yay! Someone else agrees with me on that one.

I really think they should raise the XP cap, or remove it altogether, it starts to get really annoying when growth is stunted before you are powerful enough to obliterate anything in your way.
Hell, the Bhaalspawn PC could get to a higher level.

Anyway, I wonder how well this game can be modded.
Sure will be interesting.
I personally don't have a clue where to start.

[Rastor]

I really think they should raise the XP cap, or remove it altogether, it starts to get really annoying when growth is stunted before you are powerful enough to obliterate anything in your way.
Hell, the Bhaalspawn PC could get to a higher level.

It's raised to level 40 in the expansion... that's D&D rules, not the game.

Anyway, I wonder how well this game can be modded.
Sure will be interesting. smile.gif
I personally don't have a clue where to start. wink.gif

It's very easy to mod. If you're going to distribute that mod though, you'd better have a coaxial or FTTP internet connection.

[Gabrielle]

What's Missing in NWN2?

A real romance. The garbage that they try to pass as a romance with that druid and Casvir is just a joke. Romances have been going down hill since BG2's greatness.

[Gollandrian]

I could go on and on about how I didn't like almost any of the NPCs (Neeshka being one of the few I liked, but they didn't really do anything with her) or how I wish the Githzerai would just shutup once in a while...

But I guess I can easily just go with: It doesn't have that great PCRPG feel to it. When I play Neverwinter Nights 2, it doesn't feel like an epic adventure or quest.

It's just another roleplaying game... Not surprising though, same thing happened with KotOR. First one felt like a great StarWars epic, the second just had an upgraded version of the first one's engine but aside from that the story paled in comparison and the NPCs were awful (my opinion)

Lastly, I always get bothered when everyone says "Oh, look! A demon. Let's all pick on that fiend-blooded fellow" But then if you're a drow it's all good, your entire race is well-known for being horribly evil and cruel, but who cares? At least you're not demonic...

Edited by Gollandrian, 09 November 2007 - 05:13 PM.

[videot]

Well, for starters, an ENDING? After finishing the game I lay sleepless for hours, pondering HOW they could have thought gamers would accept that sorry excuse for a wrap-up. The best comment I have read was to the effect that if a RL DM (gotta love those abbreviations ) tried something like that he would need a +2 ring of protection from face-punching, because his FORMER friends would give him such a whooping. I'm inclined to agree.

Also, it would be nice to be able to choose what characters to bring or not bring - being forcibly settled with Ammon after his acts at the end of Act 2 was an insult. (My character would have gutted him on the spot.) Same goes for all other NPC's, but that was extreme.

And more developing money/time for Act 3. Talk about a great game falling apart very quickly. When said ending followed, nothing short of the immediate incineration of the responsible ones would have quenched my ire. Games should entertain, not ultimately enrage. I haven't played Mask of the Betrayer yet, simply because I do not trust them to not make everything WORSE...

[Tempest]

Actually, MotB is a very good campaign-better than the NWN2 OC by far. And for the ladies, there's now a Bishop Romance mod for the OC, which is well worth playing.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Well, I haven't played the NWN2 as I lack the computer to run one, but presumably I am right, I would have to say: The Force and of course the Lightsaber.

Edit: Now that I have got the computer that can run the NWN2, I have to agree with the earlier myself; The NWN2 needs the Force and of course the Lightsaber.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 17 March 2008 - 05:05 AM.

[Jarley]

Ammon and Sand being romanceable. Think what you will off me but I would've gladly romanced them both.

[berelinde]

Sand would have been nice. He makes me laugh. Yeah, he thinks very highly of himself, but his clever comebacks are entertaining. And I'm willing to bet he can take a joke.

I like Ammon, but he just doesn't attract me.

And yeah, I definitely know what other posters have said about the OC romances being somewhat lacking, especially if you're used to BG2. I'm working on expanding Casavir's, bringing it up to the level of involvement that you get with the Bishop Romance. I had it 95% done when the toolset ate my mod. I'm rewriting, but I'm testing as I go, so it will take a little longer than the three weeks it took the first time through.

But that makes me curious about something. Do Casavir haters dislike him because they find his character insufferable, or because he's boring, i.e. he doesn't talk much?

[Jarley]

I think it's mainly because he's boring...and when he talks he talkes about Old Owl Well.

[princesspurpleblob]

But that makes me curious about something. Do Casavir haters dislike him because they find his character insufferable, or because he's boring, i.e. he doesn't talk much?

he's least charismatic guy I've ever came across. not so very paladin like... gets jealous over bishop so easily. I've also heard that in the deleted component, bishop lets PC know that casavir killed the rival of his over ophalia's affection. and BORING, BORING, BORING. it's like "hi... I'm casavir and I'm obsessed with Old Owl Well. I also hate bishop... oh, did I tell you that I want to protect you?"

it was like... right. could you please go away, kthanx.

[Discordia]

i always considered neeshka to be actually a remake of planescapes annah (she was still my favourite, especially her few banters with khelgar made it somewhat worthwhile)
i kinda liked sand for his witty remarks.

what i missed most was the careful tactical planning that non scripted npcs require as well as the lack of overview due to zooming restrictions...and the just sitting there for 5 seconds kinda takes away that feeling of you being really on an adventure but gives it a more diablo like hack n slay feeling...

in that i preferred the expansion, as well as i rather liked safiya the red wizard and the possibility to gain influence on your companions unlocking additional strengths, kinda reminded me of planescape...

[Kaeloree]

Split the NWNII vs. NWN/BGII discussion into a new thread.