The conflits will be very strong with the majority of the NPCs as Irenicus is what he is - the force of evil and stepped by his actions on almost everyone's most sensitive spot.
Imoen: Huh! That man cut my head with knives for months! He given my soul to a vampire! Vampire, < CHARNAME >! I mean I forgave you many things, but how can you bring this ...this monster back to life? I will not be able to sleep in his presence!
Jaheira: He killed MY KHALID! (of course I shag you now, but...) HE KILLED MY KHALID! Die!
Minsc: Heh, < CHARNAME>, do you give Minsc and Boo a chance to kill the Dynaheir's torturer yet again? Boo said doing it twice is twice as much fun as doing it once! Go for the mask Boo! Go for the mask!
Valygar: What, you want the mad wizard who conspired against his love and his people in order to gain power among us? I have to caution you, that I am going to give you 5 minutes to re-think your descision, and then I am going to kill him. I have already killed my forther, my mother, my great-great-great unkle for doing just that...
Aerie: Oi-oi-oi! Wh-what is it, beloved? A scary-scary evil-evil man? And his face reminds me of a circus so much...I think...I think I will return to teh circus...
Nalia: The man had tortured less fortunate for centuries, < CHARNAME >. He must be destroyed.
Amonen: My LADYLORD, surely you are not letting this abomination of a creature to continue the corruption of all things good and radiant? As you are no doubt blinded by your strange, foul and unpredictable heritage, I'll just go ahead and slay him, and we will discuss how right I was later on.
Keldorn: In the name of the Order I an going to cast that monster back into the Abyss. The very last thing I want to do afore I retire...forgive the old man this fancy...
Mazzy: In the name of righteousness...or to protect my squire from a nerveous break-down...I shall slay you!
Cernd: But the man poisoned the Tree! Even now it is stil bleeding! Only death can pay for life, so he must stay dead, truely dead for the Tree to heal!
Which efficiently leaves you with Viconia, Korgan, Sarevok, Jan, Haer and Edwin who do not mind...
NPC reactions to Irenicus ressurection...
Started by
-Domi_S-
, Apr 25 2003 07:00 AM
52 replies to this topic
#2
Mikka
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Posted 25 April 2003 - 08:09 AM
Haer-Delis would probably give a speech about how Irenicus joining your group is causing lots of problems to break out, thus helping your group travel the path to entropy. Or else he would decide that now he can interview Irenicus on everything he did so he can try and turn it in to a play of some sort.
Viconia probably wouldn't care about him if she's not your love interest, but if she is, I can't see her treating Irenicus nicely. From her dialog when Sarevok joins, she's somewhat defensive of you. I doubt she wants the guy who stole <CHARNAME>'s soul to be wandering around him.
Heh. Just ideas, though. =P
Viconia probably wouldn't care about him if she's not your love interest, but if she is, I can't see her treating Irenicus nicely. From her dialog when Sarevok joins, she's somewhat defensive of you. I doubt she wants the guy who stole <CHARNAME>'s soul to be wandering around him.
Heh. Just ideas, though. =P
#3
dorotea
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Posted 25 April 2003 - 08:09 AM
Which efficiently leaves you with Viconia, Korgan, Sarevok, Jan, Haer and Edwin who do not mind...
Great fun! I would love to play with a party like that! .
But seriously - I have a very well thought out plan for this mod plot, ok? You should give me a benefit of a doubt at least to be able to overcome these obstacles.
Thanks for your input! I loved these dialog snippets.
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.
Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.
The Longer Road mod
Redemption mod
Bitter Grey Ashes
#4
-Lord E-
-Lord E-
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- Guest
Posted 25 April 2003 - 08:36 AM
[quote name='Domi_S' date='Apr 25 2003, 05:00 PM']Which efficiently leaves you with Viconia, Korgan, Sarevok, Jan, Haer and Edwin who do not mind...[/quote]
Which efficiently leaves you with Viconia, Korgan, Sarevok, Jan, Haer and Edwin who do not mind...[QUOTE]
Who wants anybody but them anyway?
Seriously though: I'm not sure if this is intended to be humorous or critical. If it is the first, disregard my comments. If the latter:
Dorotea did state that she will write serious conflicts with Imoen, Minsc and Jaheira, who are the ones with a personal reason to hate Irenicus' guts. She is a very good writer who is able to come up with convincing stories and is sure to have given it a lot of thought. If you see the NPCs very differently than she does and can't accept her version, well, the mod is optional.
Some people, like I, interpret goodness so that belief and appreciation of redemption and forgiveness are rather good than evil/neutral traits. Keldorn as I wrote him in my own fanfic sure as hell would take Irenicus' redemption as a mission, especially if the Seldarine gods wished it, even though he would naturally be vary.
And other way around, Viconia certainly would 'mind' if the PC is her lover. Edwin would be insanely jealous and threatened. For example. Naturally, my opinion only, just to demonstrate that it can be seen many ways.
Which efficiently leaves you with Viconia, Korgan, Sarevok, Jan, Haer and Edwin who do not mind...[QUOTE]
Who wants anybody but them anyway?
Seriously though: I'm not sure if this is intended to be humorous or critical. If it is the first, disregard my comments. If the latter:
Dorotea did state that she will write serious conflicts with Imoen, Minsc and Jaheira, who are the ones with a personal reason to hate Irenicus' guts. She is a very good writer who is able to come up with convincing stories and is sure to have given it a lot of thought. If you see the NPCs very differently than she does and can't accept her version, well, the mod is optional.
Some people, like I, interpret goodness so that belief and appreciation of redemption and forgiveness are rather good than evil/neutral traits. Keldorn as I wrote him in my own fanfic sure as hell would take Irenicus' redemption as a mission, especially if the Seldarine gods wished it, even though he would naturally be vary.
And other way around, Viconia certainly would 'mind' if the PC is her lover. Edwin would be insanely jealous and threatened. For example. Naturally, my opinion only, just to demonstrate that it can be seen many ways.
#5
-Guest-
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Posted 25 April 2003 - 09:24 AM
I am quite familiar with Dorotea's fanfiction and yes, she is an excellent writer. The thing I am trying to point out that
1) There will be MORE conflicts than with Jaheira, Imoen and possibly Minsc.
2) Those who object sternly are people of action who'd try to finish off Irenicus before he has even started redeeming. As far as I understand he is not dropping into Hell Caves standing on his knees teary-eyed...
so your angry NPC is telling you: "What in Nine Hells are you doing, < CHARNAME >? Well, we are in Nine Hells, and I guess that effects your judgemnet somewhat and I HAVE to figure out something different to use as "foul language phrase" here... But back to Irenicus! The man is the most terrible criminal Faerun knew for centuries!
PC mumbles meekly/states with great dignity/exclaims passionately: "Have not you heard Ellisime? He had no soul...I gave him a portion of mine, great thing it is that we can conveniently split and share it anyway we want to as many pieces as we would like...Zut, too bad I had not known it before, otherwise all this troubles we went through in Spellhold would have been optional..."
Satan (if in the party): Damn! That is MY domain - soul trading. I even considered it MONOPOLY, you know! Now every measly demigod gets to do it...I am so going to SUE YOU < CHARNAME >!
The half-apeased NPC: Oh? You gave him your soul? Is that mean that he is going to become a loving, caring, sweet, honorable, noble, kind (greedy, manipulative, evil, bitchy, etc) person, just like you, this very instant? Then I have no problems with this sort of thing...
PC: Ahem...no, actualy, he is going to become just as he was before Seldarine stripped his Elven soul...You know that crazy, pridful, guy who wanted to murder the citizens of his own city and betrayed the trust of the love of his life?
NPC: Then I am afraid I have to re-state my objections...
1) There will be MORE conflicts than with Jaheira, Imoen and possibly Minsc.
2) Those who object sternly are people of action who'd try to finish off Irenicus before he has even started redeeming. As far as I understand he is not dropping into Hell Caves standing on his knees teary-eyed...
so your angry NPC is telling you: "What in Nine Hells are you doing, < CHARNAME >? Well, we are in Nine Hells, and I guess that effects your judgemnet somewhat and I HAVE to figure out something different to use as "foul language phrase" here... But back to Irenicus! The man is the most terrible criminal Faerun knew for centuries!
PC mumbles meekly/states with great dignity/exclaims passionately: "Have not you heard Ellisime? He had no soul...I gave him a portion of mine, great thing it is that we can conveniently split and share it anyway we want to as many pieces as we would like...Zut, too bad I had not known it before, otherwise all this troubles we went through in Spellhold would have been optional..."
Satan (if in the party): Damn! That is MY domain - soul trading. I even considered it MONOPOLY, you know! Now every measly demigod gets to do it...I am so going to SUE YOU < CHARNAME >!
The half-apeased NPC: Oh? You gave him your soul? Is that mean that he is going to become a loving, caring, sweet, honorable, noble, kind (greedy, manipulative, evil, bitchy, etc) person, just like you, this very instant? Then I have no problems with this sort of thing...
PC: Ahem...no, actualy, he is going to become just as he was before Seldarine stripped his Elven soul...You know that crazy, pridful, guy who wanted to murder the citizens of his own city and betrayed the trust of the love of his life?
NPC: Then I am afraid I have to re-state my objections...
#6
Userunfriendly
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Replendent Beta Tester of Madness!!!
Posted 25 April 2003 - 09:26 AM
weidu:
install edwin romance??? y/n
y
Of course you made the right decision, you knuckledragging simian monkey brain...i edwin am the perfect man, and naturally the best choice of all the npc's...
install redemption-longer road??? y/n
y
install edwin/joneleth conflict module??? y/n
y
what, you dare to look at someone other than the only perfect being in the entire roster of BG2 Npc's!!! I edwin will never forgive this!!!
so obviously the romance option with jon will be a no-go if you are already romancing edwin....i also can see how much edwin will hate jon if he is in romance with the pc...just looking at the laufey stories, its pretty obvious how protective edwin will be to his significant other....i frankly see eddy as the npc who will protest the most...
i am looking foward to seeing how the goody goody npcs will react...but i really hope i dont have to ditch one of them...
i really dont like viccy, korgy, sarevok, jan or haer very much, they never make it into my perminent team hardly ever....i understand if you say in the readme that i cant keep imoen, jahiera or minsc if i install the mod, but i hope i can keep the npcs i like...
install edwin romance??? y/n
y
Of course you made the right decision, you knuckledragging simian monkey brain...i edwin am the perfect man, and naturally the best choice of all the npc's...
install redemption-longer road??? y/n
y
install edwin/joneleth conflict module??? y/n
y
what, you dare to look at someone other than the only perfect being in the entire roster of BG2 Npc's!!! I edwin will never forgive this!!!
so obviously the romance option with jon will be a no-go if you are already romancing edwin....i also can see how much edwin will hate jon if he is in romance with the pc...just looking at the laufey stories, its pretty obvious how protective edwin will be to his significant other....i frankly see eddy as the npc who will protest the most...
i am looking foward to seeing how the goody goody npcs will react...but i really hope i dont have to ditch one of them...
i really dont like viccy, korgy, sarevok, jan or haer very much, they never make it into my perminent team hardly ever....i understand if you say in the readme that i cant keep imoen, jahiera or minsc if i install the mod, but i hope i can keep the npcs i like...
They call me....
Darth...
Darth Gizka...
Darth...
Darth Gizka...
#7
-Lord E-
-Lord E-
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- Guest
Posted 25 April 2003 - 09:36 AM
There will or will not be (serious) conflicts, depending on how Dorotea interprets the NPCs. We also do not know how the plot will be set up, so let's keep an open mind. When/if she posts the Irenicus joining party dialogues for comments you can critisize them if you find them inconvincing, but I don't think there's a call to judge in beforehand.1) There will be MORE conflicts than with Jaheira, Imoen and possibly Minsc.
2) Those who object sternly are people of action who'd try to finish off Irenicus before he has even started redeeming.
#8
-Lord E-
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Posted 25 April 2003 - 09:39 AM
I don't think Dorotea would make such an intrusive designing decision. (You wouldn't, would you?)i am looking foward to seeing how the goody goody npcs will react...but i really hope i dont have to ditch one of them...
It is up to her to interpret why/how the goody-two-shoes would go with Irenicus joining the party, and up to the player to believe it. There are many ways to view the same NPC, many ways to write a plot.
#9
dorotea
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witch extraordinaire
Posted 25 April 2003 - 09:54 AM
I don't think Dorotea would make such an intrusive designing decision. (You wouldn't, would you?)
No - I shall try to make a convincing case for every one of them to stay in the party even with Jonny joining them. And no 'part of my soul' given to restore him. I am not going to recycle the Sarevok plot.
Guys- girls you would have to wait and see. I promise to post of hand out for beta read as much as I can, probably everything but some tiniest details to you.
I am at work right now have to run! Be back soon!
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.
Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.
The Longer Road mod
Redemption mod
Bitter Grey Ashes
#10
-jcompton-
-jcompton-
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- Guest
Posted 25 April 2003 - 10:55 AM
I think the Dominator has the right of it. Good luck credibly convincing those NPCs... or me... that this in any way approximates "a good idea" or "plausible." (of course, I'm the guy who won't take Sarevok into the party on the same grounds.)
(Dominator. Dominator. Get it? As Strong Bad says, "'The Yellow Dart.' I'm awesome.")
(Dominator. Dominator. Get it? As Strong Bad says, "'The Yellow Dart.' I'm awesome.")
#11
-Domi_S-
-Domi_S-
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Posted 25 April 2003 - 11:02 AM
Am that male-ish? Why not Dominatrisse or whatever else femal-ish? 
#12
-jcompton-
-jcompton-
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- Guest
Posted 25 April 2003 - 11:06 AM
"Dominator" isn't exactly a gender-specific term.
"Dominatrix" has definite sexual overtones that I think would be inappropriate.
"Dominator" was meant to be flattering and charming, Domi.
"Dominatrix" has definite sexual overtones that I think would be inappropriate.
"Dominator" was meant to be flattering and charming, Domi.
#13
dorotea
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witch extraordinaire
Posted 25 April 2003 - 11:09 AM
I think the Dominator has the right of it. Good luck credibly convincing those NPCs... or me... that this in any way approximates "a good idea" or "plausible." (of course, I'm the guy who won't take Sarevok into the party on the same grounds.)
The beauty of this game is that it is so non-linear. I shall try to follow the BG and BG II traditional approach and stay paradoxical but appealing.
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.
Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.
The Longer Road mod
Redemption mod
Bitter Grey Ashes
#14
-Lord E-
-Lord E-
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- Guest
Posted 25 April 2003 - 11:11 AM
So don't play it then. It's that simple. Sorry if I sounds aggressive or something, that is not really the intention, but I don't see why you guys need to discourage the writer of the mod if you find the very idea of it unappealing or implausible. The only help this sort of comment gives to the writer is 'your mod should not exist', which I don't see as a very constructive thing as everyone can happily ignore the mod's existence.I think the Dominator has the right of it. Good luck credibly convincing those NPCs... or me... that this in any way approximates "a good idea" or "plausible." (of course, I'm the guy who won't take Sarevok into the party on the same grounds.)
(Dominator. Dominator. Get it? As Strong Bad says, "'The Yellow Dart.' I'm awesome.")
#15
-jcompton-
-jcompton-
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- Guest
Posted 25 April 2003 - 11:30 AM
Thank you for reminding me of my options.So don't play it then. It's that simple.
but I don't see why you guys need to discourage the writer of the mod if you find the very idea of it unappealing or implausible.
Perhaps you're accustomed to an environment where the only approved reaction to a creative project is "More please!" written twenty times, but I like to think I have slightly more latitude to express my opinion. And my opinion is that I think Domi makes an excellent point about the plausibility of having the majority of the 15 surviving SOA NPCs available to travel with Jonbon. And I've expressed it.
I support Dorotea's efforts to create a mod to tell her story. I reserve my right to express my opinion about the likely impact of her story on the gameworld and the validity of the resulting characterization, however. And Dorotea's within her right to say "Just wait and see" and I'm within my rights to say "I'm still skeptical."
You may choose to counteract me by saying "More please!", or not, as you wish.
#16
-jcompton-
-jcompton-
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Posted 25 April 2003 - 11:32 AM
Sadly, that's not much the case with TOB as you seem to have discovered with your "what to do about WK" problem, but the nice thing about TOB for modders is that its many flaws make it well worth adding new and more interesting content to.The beauty of this game is that it is so non-linear.
#17
-Domi_S-
-Domi_S-
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Posted 25 April 2003 - 11:42 AM
Because it can help a writer to identify and find his/her way around the difficulties she/he did not know existed.
Of course, paraphrasing the old saying about geologists one may say that 2 modders+1 game= 6 different mutually exclusive expert conclusions...
but! there is a great chance that if one person sees a logical inconsistency, then another person might see it as well. Some of them can be resolved quite easily, others - with more care... In any case, the author can ignore what s/he thinks is not an inconsistency...
For example addition of Ellisime in the party, who insists on saving Irenicus, explaining how she was wqrong and how she'd like to set the wrongs aright for her beloved Jonoleth can suit to resolve the good NPC conflict (now, I know that Ellisime will NOT be in this mod, but it IS one of the solutions)
Of course, paraphrasing the old saying about geologists one may say that 2 modders+1 game= 6 different mutually exclusive expert conclusions...
but! there is a great chance that if one person sees a logical inconsistency, then another person might see it as well. Some of them can be resolved quite easily, others - with more care... In any case, the author can ignore what s/he thinks is not an inconsistency...
For example addition of Ellisime in the party, who insists on saving Irenicus, explaining how she was wqrong and how she'd like to set the wrongs aright for her beloved Jonoleth can suit to resolve the good NPC conflict (now, I know that Ellisime will NOT be in this mod, but it IS one of the solutions)
#18
-Theodur-
-Theodur-
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- Guest
Posted 25 April 2003 - 12:00 PM
I really do not understand some of this snapping, guys. Sure, Dorotea probably is well prepared to face the criticism, but you do make an impresion that the idea itself is *wrong* or *bad*, which simply is not possible. The only thing that matters is selling the idea convincingly - and we will be able to judge on that as more and more dialogues are presented.
You had the chance to comment on the first dialogue on The Attic and you did so Domi, and yet you create this slightly sarcastical thread to make virtually the same points (regarding Elly) you made in the Attic thread - why was that necessary, beats me.
I am also very intrigued how Dorotea will solve the conflicts with Immy, Minsc and of course Jaheira - be sure that I will keep close attention to that!
Keep up the good work
You had the chance to comment on the first dialogue on The Attic and you did so Domi, and yet you create this slightly sarcastical thread to make virtually the same points (regarding Elly) you made in the Attic thread - why was that necessary, beats me.
I am also very intrigued how Dorotea will solve the conflicts with Immy, Minsc and of course Jaheira - be sure that I will keep close attention to that!
Keep up the good work
#19
dorotea
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witch extraordinaire
Posted 25 April 2003 - 12:12 PM
I support Dorotea's efforts to create a mod to tell her story. I reserve my right to express my opinion about the likely impact of her story on the gameworld and the validity of the resulting characterization, however. And Dorotea's within her right to say "Just wait and see" and I'm within my rights to say "I'm still skeptical."
Chortle. I firmly believe I am more resilient than to burst into tears, kicking my little legs and and yelling 'you bad bad people - just go away and don't touch my beautiful mod ( or my beautiful white wings) with ten feet pole!'
I actually appreciate all the attention. The more - the merrier. And until I am done writing (or even after) you guys cannot be but stay sceptical.
As for 'likely impact of my story on the gameworld' - chuckle again. You are making me puff up like a puffer fish. I seriously doubt this mod will have much impact on ToB rating. ROFLMAO!
But it may attract some players who dig for paradoxes, soul-wrenching conflicting emotions and general 'dostoevstchina' (to translate it from russian 'dostoevsky-like wretched love for poking at the old wounds to see if they will bleed if opened'. )
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.
Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.
The Longer Road mod
Redemption mod
Bitter Grey Ashes
#20
-Domi_S-
-Domi_S-
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- Guest
Posted 25 April 2003 - 12:15 PM
You had the chance to comment on the first dialogue on The Attic and you did so Domi, and yet you create this slightly sarcastical thread to make virtually the same points (regarding Elly) you made in the Attic thread - why was that necessary, beats me.
1) I asked about possible inclusion of Ellisime and Jonoleth "real-time" lovestory at Attic, I commented here on the way many NPCs will react at the ressurection of Irenicus. I fail to see how it is the same.
2) At the time I commented at Attic I did not know that the forum was allocated for the mod discussion.
3) I have voiced my doubts re: Valygar jumping up at the opportunity to work shoulder to shoulder with Irenicus in a humorous way specifically to make it not to sound like "snapping"
as for my reasons to comment in the fiorst place, pleas see the post above.
1) I asked about possible inclusion of Ellisime and Jonoleth "real-time" lovestory at Attic, I commented here on the way many NPCs will react at the ressurection of Irenicus. I fail to see how it is the same.
2) At the time I commented at Attic I did not know that the forum was allocated for the mod discussion.
3) I have voiced my doubts re: Valygar jumping up at the opportunity to work shoulder to shoulder with Irenicus in a humorous way specifically to make it not to sound like "snapping"
as for my reasons to comment in the fiorst place, pleas see the post above.
