75 replies to this topic

[Azazello]

I just lost a bit of respect for you, Azazello.

Oops, sorry. Just got home from working on a take-home exam when I wrote my post. (Yeah, Loser studying on a Friday night, I know.) From just the few posts I saw I thought this was gonna be a funny thread not a serious discourse. Please continue with your normal programming.

[SConrad]

SConrad,

What's the purpose of this post? Why tear down someone who I don't think has done you any harm? Do people overly praise him? Maybe? What harm does it do? Hero's mostly don't live up to their reputations. I can see you frustration about this, but why do it in public? Why don't you get a punching bag and put his photo on it and work out your anger? How does this help IE Modding, SHS or the people who come here?

This is a legitimate question.

(As a sidenote, I have always welcomed discussion, and never told anyone that he/she should keep his/her opinions to him/herself. I thoroughly believe in questioning so-called "facts", or other things we take for granted.)

David Gaider has for a long time being acclaimed by BG fans, and in many cases hailed and revered. This has happened despite his involvement in these games being less than presumed, and in some cases even inexistant. His writing is of mediocre quality at best. But I've said all of this before.

So, why I am I rambling about David Gaider? Well, first of all, I believe in just and fair credit. I think that a lot of people at various gaming development companies have done remarkable jobs with these games, and I don't like that one person is getting more praise than he deserves. I feel the same way about a soccer diva (think Zlatan Ibrahimovic, for those who know soccer) taking glory and praise when the win was a team effort. I feel the same way about politicians who are glorified, when they have a big staff that does most of the work for them.

I don't think David Gaider is entitled to the near-Godlike status he has among certain people of the IE Modding Community. I don't believe he should be the first name on everyone's lips and the most prominent of all game developers. He's not that good. And, as mentioned before, there are others who are more worthy of the worship.

For me, you could say that it's about setting the record straight - and telling people "hey, you know, there are others, too". I've seen Gaider-this, Gaider-that everywhere over the past couple of years, and at first I thought he was awesome too. But as time went on, I realized that he wasn't - but people still claim so.

These days, it sets my teeth on edge everytime I see him getting attributed to something - like the name of Imoen, from earlier today. I think that generally, people take his supposed greatness at face value, and I don't like that. I finally decided to raise my opinion on the matter - an opinion I know I'm not totally alone with - because I don't want people to be so gullible to think that this person is so much better than he is.

No, I'm not sure if this is going to accomplish anything, but hey, at least I tried voicing my point of view. If at least one or two people as a result of this thread think twice before claiming Gaider invented D&D, then I consider that a step in the right direction.

Heros are all well and good, but too much ignorance about the people we look up to has never lead to anything good. I don't think I need to provide examples.

[GeN1e]

Well, this really looks like you're just jealious. If you don't like Gaider - go and say him that. I don't like Vlad, but I'm not creating topics about it. And if some people give Gaider undeserved praises - that's thier business, they do what they like and don't need your opinion. Really, to start such discussion would be more relevant for 15-old teenager.

[the bigg]

Overall, I think that Gaider tried to do as good as was possible under the constraints he had (although Bondari is inexcusable).

In Oblivion NWNII (cited because you named his developer in the OP) you start the game as a 1st level n00b. The plans for ToB were to finish the BG* plotline (achieving godhood and progressing from 20th to 40th level) and then stop working with the IE. IMHO, it's pretty hard to make a game under such premises without having the player feel as a god - because that's what you are! You're of higher level than some gods' avatars, and you have six party members of similar level on top of that. The only way to keep the game a challenge is to raise your enemies to similar levels and giving them a special edge over you (= more phat loot), and in the end making the game as overpowered and illogical as it is.
Apart from game balance, NWNII was made in 4 years, ToB in 6 months. As for his writing quality, every BG2 romantic NPC was planned and written in one week = 40 man hours. Kelsey (cited because usually well-received) was written in eight months (not to mention further releases). Even working 30 minutes a day on that, it's still .5 * 30 * 8 = 120 man hours of time (so you have oodles of extra time to improve on your dialogue). Even if we assume that three people worked on Anomen during that week (= 120 man hours), Kelsey still had over 10 times the brainstorming time that Anomen received.

Obviously, unless somebody paid Avellone and Gaider to re-write each other's game with the same constraints, it's hard to see how much Gaider sucked and how much the requirements he had to work under sucked

EDIT: I confused Oblivion with Obsidian.

Edited by the bigg, 05 May 2007 - 06:04 AM.

[SConrad]

Well, this really looks like you're just jealious.

Well, I can assure you that I'm really not jealous of Gaider. As far as I know, he doesn't have anything I want.

(I can admit to being slightly jealous of Chris Avellone, though.)

If you don't like Gaider - go and say him that.

I don't think I need to - I have a 75/25 bet that someone eventually will link him to this topic.

But even if that doesn't happen, I don't see why I should. This topic is not directed to him, it's directed to everyone who think he's great.

Really, to start such discussion would be more relevant for 15-old teenager.

Please, if you want to argue, argue the point and not my age. Thank you.

Overall, I think that Gaider tried to do as good as was possible under the constraints he had (although Bondari is inexcusable).

I can see your point, but one aspect to consider here was that Gaider wasn't even the lead designer of ToB. He only played one part of the team - so it's not really correct to say that "Gaider tried", for the simple reason that he wasn't even in charge. Another example of the hype.

As for the Avellone/Gaider challenge... well, Avellone was running the show of PS:T before Gaider had even been mentioned in the credits of a released game. And we've yet to see Gaider being in charge of a full game. DragonAge might tell, but we haven't seen anything of that yet.

In other words; Avellone would win hands down.

[the bigg]

I can see your point, but one aspect to consider here was that Gaider wasn't even the lead designer of ToB. He only played one part of the team - so it's not really correct to say that "Gaider tried", for the simple reason that he wasn't even in charge. Another example of the hype.

I, uh, always read DG listed as 'lead designer' for ToB, and never bothered to read the credits - case in point about the hype

As for the Avellone/Gaider challenge... well, Avellone was running the show of PS:T before Gaider had even been mentioned in the credits of a released game. And we've yet to see Gaider being in charge of a full game. DragonAge might tell, but we haven't seen anything of that yet.

That's something that will make me buy Oblivion NWNII (and the associated gaming computer) sooner

EDIT: I confused Oblivion with Obsidian.

Edited by the bigg, 05 May 2007 - 06:04 AM.

[Salk]

I don't know much about what each programmer involved in the BG series did but I more or less share SConrad's ideas about the quality of the game although there must be things that need to be pointed out: in my opinion it's always easier to start something good than to keep the quality at the same level in later installments (this happens also for books and movies). It's all the more difficult when the starting quality is very high. For the nature of AD&D there is another factor which is extremely important for me: playing with low level party is infinitely much funnier. When the powers "degenerate" so does the game.

But back to Gaider. The only thing I can say I like a lot about him is that he does help people trying to improve the game and had put passion in what he created. It might be so that he is not that great but look at the BG2 Fixpack forum and check who CamDawg could turn to for an advice about developers intentions and similar. It was him. I don't know about others but still...

And again about the overall value of the different BG productions. ToB had its good points: I loved the TAB highlighting objects on screen although I would have instead devised it as some sort of thieving ability instead of a neverfailing system to detect every object.

Edited by Salk, 05 May 2007 - 05:58 AM.

[jcompton]

It's important to remember that in cases of "hero worship" the object often doesn't have anything to do with the seamier sides. (Can't blame the guy for being dubiously credited with Imoen's name, for instance.)

Leaving discussion of relative merits as a writer aside (usually a favorite topic of mine!), it's very worth keeping in mind that during the BG2/Post-BG2 Era, Gaider was basically the only direct liaison between the community and Bioware. That's as much his choice to get involved as it was Everybody Else's choice individually to stay away, as well as Bioware's conscious decision to focus all of their "community development" efforts on NWN. So whether or not you think his Attic stories are especially good, the mere fact that he posted frequently on the Attic scores a lot of points with people. He produced/lead developed/whatever-you-want-to-call-it Ascension, and whether you think it's a great mod or just a dubious substitution of one cliched ending for another cliched ending, the fact that he organized and assembled it and nobody else from Bioware did, again, scores a lot of points. And as mentioned, he's continued to make himself available from time to time for other inquiries, etc.

So, yeah, I think a big part of the phenomenon is that to the active Infinity community, his is the only face that has ever been put forward. So whether fawningly or tongue-in-cheekishly (GROOP), credit and blame for everything BG2-related tends to go his way. It's not uncommon for a single developer on a larger game to end up becoming synonymous with that game's successes or failings (see: Carmack, Romero, etc.)

[Shed]

Carth's romance is miles better than Anomen's so at least Gaider's learning And to be honest, KOTOR is a better game than BG2, minus the 'can only have 2 companions' part.

It maybe better than Anomen's (I've never played it), but I found Carth to be really boring.

[Vlasák]

Hmm, to be honest I don't understand the point of this topic. Yes, SConrad has wanted to say he don't think that Gaider is designer-god. OK. But is it necessary?

Gaider did quite noticeable work in modding... already mentioned Ascension and inputs to yahoo mailing discussions like Infinity Scripters. Except some others from Bioware who provide some input to modding community as well, he was (is) quite unique in the IE modding scene - someone from Bioware who gave us hints and experiences about scripting, effects and other aspects. This gave him a status "the one from Bioware", more precisely "the one from Bioware who is interested in modding and his name is David Gaider". Here you can see the roots why his name is so often used in discussions...

Actually I haven't noticed that he is praised for his design work, there is just his "legacy" for his interest in modding. You can compare him with Avellone and you will get some result of this comparing, however it is totally out of context - it is not about Gaider's design, it is about his involvement in modding - and maybe not due to the real, concrete modding achivements but just because of the fact that he is the one from the "mysterious" Bioware employees.

[Cuv]

Well said! Thanks Vlasák

Cuv

[Delight]

I wish people would stop glorifying David Gaider. It's not that I don't appreciate his contributions to the modding community, but that's not reason enough to deify him. The only reason he's a name is because he's "accessible," but that's about it.

Gaider wasn't at all involved in BG and TotSC (which in my opinion was awesome), he played a minor role in SoA (which I thought was good) and a larger role in ToB (which I thought sucked) - so go figure. I consider Ascension to be okay, but a bit hyped because of his involvement. NWN and its expansions were okay, too, but not excellent. I felt Carth was a very generic and stereotypical NPC in KotOR. I haven't seen enough of Dragon Age to be able to form any opinion yet.

None of the above warrants his status as the "Game Designing God" I sometimes see him referred to as being.

And if you look at some of his writing, you'll notice that it's medicore at best (not to mention this ). Numerous people in our community write ten times better.

Really, give credit where it's due. If you want a game designer to praise, go take a look at Chris Avellone over at Obsidian. PS:T is so much better than anything Gaider's ever had his hands in.

For the sake of discussion; what are your opinions?

Holy words
I would add Tim Cain from Troika.

[SConrad]

Actually I haven't noticed that he is praised for his design work, there is just his "legacy" for his interest in modding.

I have. On a number of occasions.

And it's more the way he's been treated as someone every defers to that I don't like - modding involvement or not.

You can compare him with Avellone and you will get some result of this comparing, however it is totally out of context - it is not about Gaider's design, it is about his involvement in modding

No, it's not "out of context". It's not about his modding involvement, either. I didn't start this thread because of his modding involvement, I started it because of his skills (or lack thereof) as a game designer. And in that context, the comparison with Avellone is very valid.

I can concede that when all of Bioware turned their backs on the modding community, he was the one who was interested and helped us out. That doesn't automatically grant him supreme powers, and it doesn't warrant the image a lot of people have of him being a superb game designer. If Bioware had showed more interest in modding, we would probably not know who David Gaider was.

It maybe better than Anomen's (I've never played it), but I found Carth to be really boring.

I didn't. He was funny, and replied right back when you teased him instead of throwing feats or running away in tears. Besides, he called PC 'beautiful', and that was really cute. He was a lot of fun, and his romance was actually pleasent. That cutscene, when he reclines and folds his arms was the only good cinematics in the whole game. The only thing I have against Gaider on Carth is the abissimal handling of the Carth's son quest ending. They should have allowed to take the boy along, not leave him on the Sith infested planet.

*shudders*

I still have nightmares from his "It's just that I... don't trust easily"-speech.

No, Carth was not a good NPC. He was unoriginal, boring and very cliché.

[KIrving]

I agree with Domi about Carth. I found him one of the more enjoyable 'romanceable' characters in a game and if Gaider did some or all of his writing then kudos to him for it.

I sometimes have problems with Gaider's opinions, however I appreciate that he makes himself available to the gaming community. I think of him as being another Bioware employee, albeit one that has been associated with the company for a while now, that is a member of a team. Somehow I don't think that David Gaider has any control over what people think of him, whether worship or loathing and all the shades between.

[SConrad]

Somehow I don't think that David Gaider has any control over what people think of him, whether worship or loathing and all the shades between.

I'm not saying he has. As I've mentioned previously, this thread is not directed to Gaider, but instead to the people who believes in his greatness by saying "I think it's wrong", and with that hope (probably in vain) that they won't credit him with things he was never even involved in.

[minotaur_in_maze]

Y'know, I gotta admit, I *Almost* feel bad for ENJOYING this post so much!

David Gaider? My thoughts are these:

However good (GREAT) or bad (crappy) his WORK on the BG series games have been, he is at least ONE of those responsible for the games being out there. That gets him a certain amount of respect, from Moi, by proxy.

The fact that he is well known in Modding Communities and has on occation taken the time outa his schedule (assuming for the moment that his work in BG series Did NOT make him independently wealthy with nothing else to do with his spare time) to write letters (or guides, at least one I can think of) for the community - that gets him Quite a bit of respect in my book. *(in the same way I respect JCompton, Shed, you yourself SConrad, and various other Master -in my opinion- modders)

Something Cuv said though (And Am I right in guessing that Cuv is a member of......your -you folks - Modding Community and not on the bioware payroll?): He said that he had a chance to work with Gaider on Assention (SP. sorry)

THAT, the fact that someone established in THE INDUSTRY takes the time and goes to the trouble to do a Mod with folks like - y'all... To Moi that is sorta like Tiger Woods showing up to do eighteen holes with me, or (Marvel Comics Creator) Stan Lee dropping by the house to check out a couple of strips I'm working on for an online blog.

However good (or bad) Mr. Gaider is, as someone who is not only employed in the industry but has made enough of a contribution to an incredibly popular series to be known - and STILL devotes his time to helping people like y'all... THAT gives me UNLIMITED respect for him!

Me? I can't mod. I have learned a bit over the years and I WILL get my junk done someday. I would give an organ or two to have been in Cuv's (boots of stealth +1) and had a chance to work with and (not meaning any offense to him) learn at the hands of someone like him. Hell, I could part with a finger or two to have that kind of one to one (okay, modding group) action with a Modder.

Not that I consider Modders any "less" than "Professionals" - but, do you see my point?

Okay, now anyone who wants to start cussing me for my thots, spell my name right okay?

Minotaur - Hanger on who just won't go away (BooHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! )

[SConrad]

THAT, the fact that someone established in THE INDUSTRY takes the time and goes to the trouble to do a Mod with folks like - y'all... To Moi that is sorta like Tiger Woods showing up to do eighteen holes with me, or (Marvel Comics Creator) Stan Lee dropping by the house to check out a couple of strips I'm working on for an online blog.

No, Minotaur, it's really not anything like playing a round of golf with Tiger Woods. This is exactly the kind of attitude that I dislike, and what made me post this topic in the first place.

There are people in the modding community who, in my opinion, are ten times better designers and/or writers than David Gaider. He's not better than the best of us, and definitely shouldn't have the reputation for being that, either.