184 replies to this topic

[Laufey]

Even if one is a higher level than their opponent, how do you know fate won't smile on the bad guy and he will outfight or outsmart you? It works both ways, so I don't think Elminster is "sacrosanct" just because he is hard to kill or of a very high level.

Elminster isn't just a high level wizard. He has all those ridiculous Chosen powers, which seem designed for the single purpose of making him 'sacrosanct'. I agree with Lord E, the impression I often get is that it is often perceived as more impossible to defeat Elminster than to defeat a god, which really oughtn't to be the case.

And again, I think you may be reading into the epilogue more than it is necessary; I don't think it's about "here's what happens if you challenge Elminster" so much as "here's what happens when you think you are so powerful and so smart and can do anything you please", which fits Edwin very well.

This is one of those matters of interpretation, that are impossible to prove either way. I know how I feel though...and that isn't likely to change.

[Lord E]

Perhaps I am, but the reaction of many people sure struck me that way (this happens to anyone who dares to challenge Edwin). Not yours, of course. That I like Edwin of course makes me partial to him. I have always hated the 'ambition is Eeevil' fantasy theme - the good guys always just somehow happen to become extremely powerful against their will, while the villains have to work for it which makes me in fact more sympathetic to them.

It is true that common sense is not Edwin's most defining trait - but if the epilogue was intended to make fun out of that fact it failed when it comes to me.

[Riona]

Elminster isn't just a high level wizard. He has all those ridiculous Chosen powers, which seem designed for the single purpose of making him 'sacrosanct'. I agree with Lord E, the impression I often get is that it is often perceived as more impossible to defeat Elminster than to defeat a god, which really oughtn't to be the case.

But Laufey, even with his Chosen powers, he is not invunerable. He has come close to being defeated many, many times. Same goes for the Seven Sisters (presumably Khelben as well, but most of the time when I read him he isn't in combat, which isn't necessarily a bad thing).

Elminster is still human and not perfect, and it's not as if it's impossible for him to be outsmarted. He could still be killed if he decided to go off and "kill" those high level baddies I talked about--I know Greenwood himself would be willing to admit all the things I've said so far.

As for Elminster being harder to defeat than a god? It isn't the case, you can be sure of that.

[Riona]

Perhaps I am, but the reaction of many people sure struck me that way (this happens to anyone who dares to challenge Edwin). Not yours, of course. That I like Edwin of course makes me partial to him. I have always hated the 'ambition is Eeevil' fantasy theme - the good guys always just somehow happen to become extremely powerful against their will, while the villains have to work for it which makes me in fact more sympathetic to them.

There is some truth to what you say. I will say, though, that Elminster *did* work to become what he is now. I said that before, I know, but it bears repeating. I understand wanting to become powerful, but actually trying to kill Elminster (which I am sure was Edwin's intent) *is* stupid.

And I understand being partial to Edwin. I am partial to Anomen, and woe to anyone who does more than poke gentle fun at him when I'm around (ie. suggesting torturing him, killing him, abusing him).

[Laufey]

Elminster isn't just a high level wizard. He has all those ridiculous Chosen powers, which seem designed for the single purpose of making him 'sacrosanct'. I agree with Lord E, the impression I often get is that it is often perceived as more impossible to defeat Elminster than to defeat a god, which really oughtn't to be the case.

But Laufey, even with his Chosen powers, he is not invunerable. He has come close to being defeated many, many times. Same goes for the Seven Sisters (presumably Khelben as well, but most of the time when I read him he isn't in combat, which isn't necessarily a bad thing).

Elminster is still human and not perfect, and it's not as if it's impossible for him to be outsmarted. He could still be killed if he decided to go off and "kill" those high level baddies I talked about--I know Greenwood himself would be willing to admit all the things I've said so far.

As for Elminster being harder to defeat than a god? It isn't the case, you can be sure of that.

Oh, *I* don't think he's impossible to defeat, quite the contrary, even with the Chosen powers. But I have had that argument presented to me, that no way could anybody under any circumstances get the better of Elminster or outsmart him in anyway. I disagree. It would be difficult, but not impossible. I still get the impression though, that all those freaky powers (such as the instant teleport to his own private *moon*) or hearing his name mentioned anywhere on Toril, are way over the top, and quite ridiculous.

Those powers along with the enormous stats, give me the impression of a puffed up character endowed with superpowers so that no player, no matter how powerful, must ever stand a chance of defeating him.

[Lord E]

And I understand being partial to Edwin. I am partial to Anomen, and woe to anyone who does more than poke gentle fun at him when I'm around (ie. suggesting torturing him, killing him, abusing him). [QUOTE]

Then I hope you will read Laufey's In the Cards if you haven't already I'm sure you will enjoy it. Ano is made fun of, yes, but so is Edwin. I also like Ano despite of him being annoying at times. That is in fact a reason that he feels like a real person with good and bad sides to him.

[Riona]

Oh, *I* don't think he's impossible to defeat, quite the contrary, even with the Chosen powers. But I have had that argument presented to me, that no way could anybody under any circumstances get the better of Elminster or outsmart him in anyway. I disagree. It would be difficult, but not impossible. I still get the impression though, that all those freaky powers (such as the instant teleport to his own private *moon*) or hearing his name mentioned anywhere on Toril, are way over the top, and quite ridiculous.

Those powers along with the enormous stats, give me the impression of a puffed up character endowed with superpowers so that no player, no matter how powerful, must ever stand a chance of defeating him.

*nods* Well, I was going to say, if you ever come across people suggesting that Elminster is impossible to defeat, you can say--with full confidence--that that is untrue, and you can point to the novels to back your case up. As much as I like Elminster, I never fail to object to people who say he is impossible to defeat, because he isn't.

And yes, he does have some freaky powers...I believe his psionic powers were put in place to defend against psionicists who used them recklessly (that was 2nd edition though). As for his moon? I've heard about that, but I have no idea how he obtained that...it is silly, but then again, Elminster is (as I said before) a very silly character. There is definately a side of him that is supposed to be laughably ridiculous, which is part of the reason why I am not opposed to "poking fun" at him as I am opposed to "torturing" or over-the-top abuse of him.

He does have very high stats--but then again, so do most FR novel characters, even "low" level ones. This is a practice I never cared much for myself.

[Laufey]

[quote name='Riona' date='Jul 23 2003, 09:47 PM'] [/QUOTE]
*nods* Well, I was going to say, if you ever come across people suggesting that Elminster is impossible to defeat, you can say--with full confidence--that that is untrue, and you can point to the novels to back your case up. As much as I like Elminster, I never fail to object to people who say he is impossible to defeat, because he isn't.

And yes, he does have some freaky powers...I believe his psionic powers were put in place to defend against psionicists who used them recklessly (that was 2nd edition though). As for his moon? I've heard about that, but I have no idea how he obtained that...it is silly, but then again, Elminster is (as I said before) a very silly character. There is definately a side of him that is supposed to be laughably ridiculous, which is part of the reason why I am not opposed to "poking fun" at him as I am opposed to "torturing" or over-the-top abuse of him.

He does have very high stats--but then again, so do most FR novel characters, even "low" level ones. This is a practice I never cared much for myself. [/quote]
I'll bear all that in mind, thanks! And as a matter of fact, I *do* have a plan for getting the better of Elminster at the end of Cards, despite the moon, despite the psionics and despite the other silly powers. Once again, not killing him, not maiming him or doing anything permanently damaging...but boy, will I ever enjoy it!

[Riona]

Then I hope you will read Laufey's In the Cards if you haven't already I'm sure you will enjoy it. Ano is made fun of, yes, but so is Edwin. I also like Ano despite of him being annoying at times. That is in fact a reason that he feels like a real person with good and bad sides to him.

Yeah, I always read the parts involving Anomen. And yes, I don't mind gentle teasing or poking fun at him (I poke fun at him a little, myself), but what makes me upset is people who either express a desire to kill him, abuse him, or people who say things about him that are just plain wrong (one time someone called him a woman beater??? What the heck?! That's not true at all!).

Much like you, I like Anomen because he feels more human than most of the other characters. LG Anomen will always be my hero.

[Riona]

I'll bear all that in mind, thanks! And as a matter of fact, I *do* have a plan for getting the better of Elminster at the end of Cards, despite the moon, despite the psionics and despite the other silly powers. Once again, not killing him, not maiming him or doing anything permanently damaging...but boy, will I ever enjoy it!

*LOL* I wonder if it involves him falling into something disgusting...

The moon, the psionics...I'll admit it's making me laugh out loud right now.

[Lord E]

[quote name='Riona' date='Jul 23 2003, 08:51 PM'][quote name='Lord E' date='Jul 23 2003, 08:44 PM']
Then I hope you will read Laufey's In the Cards if you haven't already I'm sure you will enjoy it. Ano is made fun of, yes, but so is Edwin. I also like Ano despite of him being annoying at times. That is in fact a reason that he feels like a real person with good and bad sides to him.[/quote]
Yeah, I always read the parts involving Anomen. And yes, I don't mind gentle teasing or poking fun at him (I poke fun at him a little, myself), but what makes me upset is people who either express a desire to kill him, abuse him, or people who say things about him that are just plain wrong (one time someone called him a woman beater??? What the heck?! That's not true at all!).

Much like you, I like Anomen because he feels more human than most of the other characters. LG Anomen will always be my hero. [/quote]
Yeah, I always read the parts involving Anomen. And yes, I don't mind gentle teasing or poking fun at him (I poke fun at him a little, myself), but what makes me upset is people who either express a desire to kill him, abuse him, or people who say things about him that are just plain wrong (one time someone called him a woman beater??? What the heck?! That's not true at all!).[QUOTE]

Well, knowing how I feel about Aerie I can only say that people always interpret the characters very differently, and if they strongly dislike someone they can react very violently (knowing that it is safe to do so with a fictitious character). Anomen is a fleshed-out character that creates a strong reaction. I personally think that Anomen would never hit a woman (except a fighting one in combat) but someone else's interpretation of him is no less valid.


>>>>Much like you, I like Anomen because he feels more human than most of the other characters. LG Anomen will always be my hero.

I prefer the CN one myself

[dorotea]

Ahem, Dorotea, I did not actually critisized the work. In fact I critisized Laufey's work on the single occasion - when she started publishing endless Aerie bashing.

I do not automatically expect that a romance mod = happy ending for a romanced character no matter what.

But I was always wanted to know why Elminster has to be punished in Edwin's mod - and I begg your and Laufey's forgiveness for daring to ask why Laufey thinks that Elminster severed Edwin's connection to the Weave or why Edwin Romance mod changes non-romance epilogues. Laufey's answered both - she wants to see Edwin happy no matter what and Elminster is annoying and have to be shown as defeated. I was satisfied with that and discontinued the futher discussion as unnecessary bugging.

Please, by all means do not hesitate to critique Valygar's romantic epilogues if you find any of them unwarranted. Or any other romance turn.

Actually, I have nothing against critisism per se. If you noticed I only get angry when critic is repeating themselves and is 'picking' on the basic idea of the work, without bothering to go into the details. Like when JC said that Ilmater's interference dictates Jaheira's reaction in my Jaheira dialog.

In this case I don't see you ever accepting the idea that Edwin is a romanceable option ... that was why I sort of got a little agitated. I apologize, it was wrong of me.

Laufey's answered both - she wants to see Edwin happy no matter what and Elminster is annoying and have to be shown as defeated.

Well, you can translate it as such, or you may consider another approach - I think her elilogues are funnier and more 'in character' for 'her' Edwin. As 'her' Edwin - the Edwin of the 'Cards' and 'Romance' is definitely more developed version of the character - ie he has a family, you actually can meet his mother, etc. You may argue he is not the 'game' Edwin. Well, maybe so. To the same extent as your Valygar is not the original Valygar.

But here we risk to fall into another endless beaten to death discussion - what are the limits to which you can go when adding content to the existing character ... There are none, I believe, only your artistic taste.

[Aurelius]

Actually, I have nothing against critisism per se. If you noticed I only get angry when critic is repeating themselves and is 'picking' on the basic idea of the work, without bothering to go into the details. Like when JC said that Ilmater's interference dictates Jaheira's reaction in my Jaheira dialog.

Well, sometimes an idea can have a big flaw in it from the start. Did you ever consider that? And from what I saw JC's comments were well founded. The fact that they kinda' ruin the whole idea by pointing some big problems at it's root is only a secondary effect.

@Domi: I don't understand why you bother. People should try to convince someone only when that someone is willing to change his/her mind if given sufficient arguments that his/her position is not founded. When you're served the argument: "It must be this way because I want it to be this way" it's time to back down because logic is no longer involved.

@Laufey: First, I have nothing against an Edwin romance mod. Edwin is an interesting character, and since a male PC has the option to romance a good, neutral or evil female NPC, I think a female PC should get the same. But I do believe that the "Edwin wins agains Elminster" epilogue is far over the top. It's one thing to bend some rules, another to put aside the entire FR lore just to make your favorite look good.

P.S I must confess my only literary view of Elminster comes from the 'Avatar" series, but for the life of me I don't remember Midnight having sex with El. Is there some other book that says differently?

[Merja]

Umm...you guys...not that I would want to intervene between the warring fractions and get my neck twisted like a rubber chicken's...This is an off key comment to JC on the lines of mischaracterization...

I happen to like Edwin - there's a shocker... And strangely enough, I am known for liking dumbasses...Though how Edwin can be dumb - paranoid, yes, maybe slightly insane, granted, egomaniac and narcisist for sure, but dumb - that I cannot see... Jason, you might know that I am Eddie's czarina in the BG1 project...and so I was wondering, after all I've read here is...ermm...how come you're not demanding my head on a pike?

Because as far as misrepresentations are concerned, I think I've gone a bit further, attacking the very dumbass quality you are hinting at, at least enough to make Domi like him a little more(which I see as a personal sucess...) I strived to make him a little less imbalanced and a little more wise, thus losing both the paranoia and the slight insanity...All Laufey does, I think, is stretch his sense of humor, which must admit, is far more present in his in-game banters than his wisdom.

The point to this, strangely enough, is my attempt of drawing your attention to the fact that there are no carved in stone characterizations of an NPC and that everyone is, in my opinion allowed to emphasize whatever pleasant qualities the NPC has. All we have to go by in writing more banter for any NPC is the banters they have in the game. And I assure you that all I've seen in the romance so far does not stray much from the original thing, at least in tone. Is Edwin transformed by the romance? indeed he is, but then, to me, Jaheira is transformed by her romance as well...Why? the simple fact that she reveals more of herself through the additional talks should be enough.

I am not an Aerie fan, and still I enjoyed Domi's portrayal of her, though it is not word by word accurate to the original NPC. I am less a fan of silly and pleasantly humorous Edwin than most of the people that will probably download the mod, but although my view of Edwin differs signifincantly fom Laufey's, I am enjoying the romance. So Laufey makes Edwin a bit more likeable...So? If you didn't play the Viconia romance, you might be tempted to say she is irrevocably evil....

C'moon you guys! modding I thought was meant to be fun and not nerve consuming! Why should we turn a simple difference of opinion over what a character should be like into a war <_< ? Variations over what real flesh and bone people are truly like exist, and, in the words of Picasso, even if there was one single truth, we could probably make a thousand different paintings of it.


Edit:

P.S I must confess my only literary view of Elminster comes from the 'Avatar" series, but for the life of me I don't remember Midnight having sex with El. Is there some other book that says differently?

Erm, ya, there is.

[Aurelius]

That was me. Forgot to log in (slaps forehead)

[Aurelius]

Edit:

P.S I must confess my only literary view of Elminster comes from the 'Avatar" series, but for the life of me I don't remember Midnight having sex with El. Is there some other book that says differently?

Erm, ya, there is.

Which one? Does this happen before or after Midnight's ascension? (I know, I have a dirty little mind, but I"m curious )