184 replies to this topic

[Laufey]

What I don't like is all the "punish Elminster" hysteria here--that *doesn't* need to be in any romance. As I said, it just seems like many people hate him (without knowing too much about him--not necessarily you, but some people), and they are looking forward to "abusing" him. I like the character, and I object to this, within reason.

Oh, I didn't think you were being unreasonable, and didn't mean to suggest it. But once again, let me sum things up.

Elminster never appears within the romance itself, he isn't part of any plot or quest. However, he *does* have bad things happen to him in the epilogues, partially as a spoof on Edwin's original epilogue. Not death, not torture, nothing permanent. But bad things, and yes, I will enjoy them, and others will too. And yet other people will not enjoy it. That's just they way it is.

I respect your right to disagree, but I am not prepared to change those epilogues. Hopefully you won't let that keep you from enjoying the rest of the mod.

[Lord E]

Laufey has pretty much said what I think, but I'll add that giving someone who is not a god such powers, creating such an ubermuchkin, is in itself extremely annoying about Elminster. His sacrosanct position in itself makes me want to see him suffer a bit (not I think he should die or be tortured or anything, which is not also Laufey's plan), even if there was not That Epilogue.

So I cheer the new epilogues and am happy to hear that they will stay.

[Riona]

Oh, I didn't think you were being unreasonable, and didn't mean to suggest it. But once again, let me sum things up.

Elminster never appears within the romance itself, he isn't part of any plot or quest. However, he *does* have bad things happen to him in the epilogues, partially as a spoof on Edwin's original epilogue. Not death, not torture, nothing permanent. But bad things, and yes, I will enjoy them, and others will too. And yet other people will not enjoy it. That's just they way it is.

I respect your right to disagree, but I am not prepared to change those epilogues. Hopefully you won't let that keep you from enjoying the rest of the mod.

I am sure I will. You've piqued my interest, to say the least. And I'm glad you don't find me to be unreasonabe, either.

And I'm glad your treatment of Elminster won't be heightened to "torture" (pain, death, etc.). I have the feeling you are going to have disgusting stuff fall on him, stuff like that.

[Laufey]

Thus being cruely rejected by the PC contributes to Edwin becoming more sucessful. You have stated earlier that the mod has something even for a person who disliked Edwin - well, such an approach might definetly annoy such a person.

Well, in that case I suppose the best approach would be to toss him out of the party after dumping him, unless it is one of those dumping conversations that make him leave on his own accord, or attack you, and the cruel ones tend to do that. In fact, I think all the cruel ones do that.

[Laufey]

And I'm glad your treatment of Elminster won't be heightened to "torture" (pain, death, etc.). I have the feeling you are going to have disgusting stuff fall on him, stuff like that.

Yes, something like that. Think slapstick, not torture.

[Riona]

Laufey has pretty much said what I think, but I'll add that giving someone who is not a god such powers, creating such an ubermuchkin, is in itself extremely annoying about Elminster. His sacrosanct position in itself makes me want to see him suffer a bit

He is not really as "sacrosanct" as many tend to think, but I think I've said what I had to about that.

As for his powers--yes, they are over the top, although I will say that I believe Greenwood never intended to detail his powers, but players wanted this--also, El can, at the very least--be used as a means to keep players from running roughshod over the Realms (ie. destroying cities, etc.).

[Riona]

And I'm glad your treatment of Elminster won't be heightened to "torture" (pain, death, etc.).  I have the feeling you are going to have disgusting stuff fall on him, stuff like that.

Yes, something like that. Think slapstick, not torture.

*LOL* I had the feeling it was going to be something like that!

*laughs* As long as you don't go overboard, I don't think I'll mind overmuch.

[Lord E]

As for his powers--yes, they are over the top, although I will say that I believe Greenwood never intended to detail his powers, but players wanted this--also, El can, at the very least--be used as a means to keep players from running roughshod over the Realms (ie. destroying cities, etc.).[QUOTE]

That's part of the problem for me. Stuff like that should be handled by divine interference, not by some uberpowerful mortal. I don't like sacred cows. It seems people have harder time accepting that someone could defeat Elminster than kill a god!

I think any powerful spellcaster is perfectly justified to want to be more powerful than Elminster, and the tone of Edwin epilogue seemed to me 'that servers him right for thinking he could be better than our poster boy Elminster!' I hope you understand what I mean.

But be that as it may, of course others like him, and there is plenty of material for them to enjoy too. And, as said, Laufey's vengeance won't be to cruel

[Riona]

That's part of the problem for me. Stuff like that should be handled by divine interference, not by some uberpowerful mortal. I don't like sacred cows. It seems people have harder time accepting that someone could defeat Elminster than kill a god!

I'm not one of those people. Once you read the books, you realize Elminster is, in reality, any *but* immortal. Really, he's not all powerful. Elminster in Hell demonstrates this.

Of course, one could argue that divine intervention is just as silly and as much of a cop-out as Elminster showing up to mitigate the situation. Personally, I prefer Elminster. It doesn't have to be a matter widespread destruction, either--in the Marco Volo (*grin*) campaign set, the PC are required to be involved with (though not necessarily start) a fight at a ballroom party, and as a result, they have to be arrested for questioning. I remember the books said that if the PCs resisted arrest, the DM could have Khelben Arunsun or some other archmage arrive, and cast powerful holding spells on the PCs so they'd have to go (for plot purposes).

[Riona]

I think any powerful spellcaster is perfectly justified to want to be more powerful than Elminster, and the tone of Edwin epilogue seemed to me 'that servers him right for thinking he could be better than our poster boy Elminster!' I hope you understand what I mean.

Of course you are justified in wanting be more powerful than Elminster, but since when does that require killing him? I still believe that if you deliberately set out to kill Elminster, you are doing something very stupid and get exactly what you deserve.

The very powerful good guys and bad guys of the Realms don't set out to kill each other, because both sides know there is a risk that either side can get unlucky and die. Most bad guys would love for Elminster to be dead, but not at the cost of their own lives!

PS: I don't see the Edwin epilogue as defending Elminster so much as making fun of Edwin. And of course, the fact is, anyone who tries to kill Elminster and comes out of it alive (if scathed) is extremely lucky, and that's an understandment. At least Edwin didn't wind up dead.

[Lord E]

For me it is easier to accept (especially in a world like Faerun were gods are so palpably real and important) that gods deal with too powerful players. After all, they are divine beings, different from mortals, while theoretically a powerful PC should in my mind become a character as powerful as Elminster/Khelben/whoever, and retire as NPCs as they do so. But each their own, I suppose.

I haven't read the Elminster books, perhaps he is not as annoying in those.

[dorotea]

As for his powers--yes, they are over the top, although I will say that I believe Greenwood never intended to detail his powers, but players wanted this--also, El can, at the very least--be used as a means to keep players from running roughshod over the Realms (ie. destroying cities, etc.).

I am not sure what was their original intent - but they succeeded in just the opposite with me. I never knew who El was but was intrigued by BG games and took pain to read all the novels ... well, lets just say now I understand the insane desire in some players to kill the old munchkin. Gods, he sooooooooo annoying. I don't think any other character in FR novels makes my hair rise and crackle. After he shagged his adopted daughter Shandryl I wanted to castrate the old pervert. What is there with Wizards ( or is it Ed Greenwood?) why does El has to be a sex-machine on top of his uber-wizard status? With his shaggy appearance it sounds especially perverted. It's like all these women and Mystra herself are under a domination spell ...

And players wanted this??!!! Maybe. But this is the best example of how 'pleasing the crowd' policy can ruin a book, or a character.

The very powerful good guys and bad guys of the Realms don't set out to kill each other, because both sides know there is a risk that either side can get unlucky and die. Most bad guys would love for Elminster to be dead, but not at the cost of their own lives!

PS: I don't see the Edwin epilogue as defending Elminster so much as making fun of Edwin. And of course, the fact is, anyone who tries to kill Elminster and comes out of it alive (if scathed) is extremely lucky, and that's an understandment. At least Edwin didn't wind up dead.

If I would be livin in the Realms I would make it a quest of my life time - to put an end to Elminster and his antics. But then - I am EEEVIL.

[Riona]

I don't think any other character in FR novels makes my hair rise and crackle. After he shagged his adopted daughter Shandryl I wanted to castrate the old pervert. What is there with Wizards ( or is it Ed Greenwood?) why does El has to be a sex-machine on top of his uber-wizard status? With his shaggy appearance it sounds especially perverted. It's like all these women and Mystra herself are under a domination spell ...

To be fair, I don't recall Elminster ever having sex with Shandril (the girl from Spelfire, you mean?). However, I do agree that the "over-sexed" characters in the novels (like some of the Seven Sisters) are annoying, and women have the tendency to end up naked in the Greenwood novels.

Elminster raised Storm, but they later become lovers--is that what you mean? I don't like that, either. I also don't like how Mirt actually became the lover of his adopted daughter Asper when she grew up--they may not be blood related but I don't believe it's right.

PS: Greenwood once said that just for fun he puts "shocking" stuff in his novels just to annoy the editors, but sometimes I think he goes too far.

[Lord E]

Not necessarily kill him, no. (Don't remember the details of the epilogue, but perhaps Edwin just wanted to win him in a wizard duel? It doesn't matter to me anyway.)

I think expecting that everyone should accept that El is by definition more powerful than anyone else (including Edwin, who is typically a 29th level conjurer or something at the end of ToB with powerful friends) and therefore it is stupid to challenge him, is very much making El sacrosanct and a sacred cow. If they want him that way, make him a god then.


>>>I don't see the Edwin epilogue as defending Elminster so much as making fun of Edwin. And of course, the fact is, anyone who tries to kill Elminster and comes out of it alive (if scathed) is extremely lucky, and that's an understandment. At least Edwin didn't wind up dead.


I have no doubt of the intention. I am not just very amused by what I see as torture for the rest of someone's life. I am a (more or less amateur) musician, and for me it is as if someone cut my fingers and changed me into a wrong gender to boot.

I think we can agree to disagree at this point.

[Riona]

For me it is easier to accept (especially in a world like Faerun were gods are so palpably real and important) that gods deal with too powerful players.

Even in a world like the FR, I see a lot of potential for divine intervention to be taken too far and become just as annoying as we think characters like Elminster are. As they say, be careful what you wish for...

And yes, you'll understand Elminster more if you read the books (and keep an open mind), but of course that doesn't guarantee that you will like him more than you do now.

[dorotea]

Thus being cruely rejected by the PC contributes to Edwin becoming more sucessful. You have stated earlier that the mod has something even for a person who disliked Edwin - well, such an approach might definetly annoy such a person.

Domi, I am sorry , but the mod is called 'Edwin Romance', alright? Like in 'Valygar Romance' or "Kelsey Romance'. Do you honestly expect such a mod to have a plotline in wich the main 'hero' would be humiliated, tortured etc?

If it was "Edwin's Additions' or "Edwin's Relationship" - I would say yeah - complain. But it is "Edwin's Romance" and as such is it clearly labeled 'not for Edwin's haters'. If Laufey included additional content ( like Edwina's flirt with male PC or extra items and npcs - it was her gift to the player, not her 'duty' as a writer of the romance.

Say, I would start complaining that Valygar's romantic epilogues are to good for him? Or Soulafein's?

If you dislike the very idea of Edwin as a pleasant companion - why bother downloading this mod or trying to make the author change it? I just cannot get it. It is one thing if you are interested in the idea and want to help by providing constructive critique. Quite another if you only come to the Forum to let the author know (yet again) that you are against the very existance of her work. Alright, we know this already. What else is new?

[Andyr]

If I would be livin in the Realms I would make it a quest of my life time - to put an end to Elminster and his antics. But then - I am EEEVIL.

lol

[Riona]

Not necessarily kill him, no. (Don't remember the details of the epilogue, but perhaps Edwin just wanted to win him in a wizard duel? It doesn't matter to me anyway.)

I think expecting that everyone should accept that El is by definition more powerful than anyone else (including Edwin, who is typically a 29th level conjurer or something at the end of ToB with powerful friends) and therefore it is stupid to challenge him, is very much making El sacrosanct and a sacred cow. If they want him that way, make him a god then.

But I would argue it'd be just as stupid for Elminster (or any powerful good guy) to go on a quest to *kill* Szass Tam, or Larloch (who doesn't care about the outside world, anyway...). or Manshoon, or Fzoul Chembryl or many other powerful bad guys of the Realms. This isn't making them into gods, it's accepting the fact that they, too, have powerful allies and armies at their beck and call, and there is a chance the good guy can make a mistake and wind up dead.

Even if one is a higher level than their opponent, how do you know fate won't smile on the bad guy and he will outfight or outsmart you? It works both ways, so I don't think Elminster is "sacrosanct" just because he is hard to kill or of a very high level.

And again, I think you may be reading into the epilogue more than it is necessary; I don't think it's about "here's what happens if you challenge Elminster" so much as "here's what happens when you think you are so powerful and so smart and can do anything you please", which fits Edwin very well.

[Riona]

I have no doubt of the intention. I am not just very amused by what I see as torture for the rest of someone's life. I am a (more or less amateur) musician, and for me it is as if someone cut my fingers and changed me into a wrong gender to boot.

Weeeeeell...unlike in real life, it would be possible for Edwin to find a way to turn back to his old self. In D&D, there is a counter for just about everything.