184 replies to this topic

[Laufey]

Let me add one more thing: I understand that Laufey's fan fics are supposed to be funny (I've read some of them, they really *are* funny), but whatever flaws the characters of Elminster and Drizzt might have (ie. too perfect, too powerful, whatever), I have to agree that the Elminster and Drizzt--in those stories--are completely out-of-character and don't act anything like they are supposed to, according to not only the novels but also FR sources.

I will repeat once more:

Elminster does not exist to solve all your PC's problems, and he is not responsible for the physical or mental well-being of the PC, or anyone else's character.

*grin* Well, I never claimed that they are like they are supposed to be in the books or official sources either. My interpretations of them in those stories are my interpretations of how they appear in the *games*, or at least how they appear to me. Nothing more, nothing less.

And my main beef with Elminster, as stated above, is Edwin's epilogue. Before that, I could tolerate him, but no longer. I'm not pretending to be in any way fair or unbiased about this, but this is how it is, and this is how it stays. Elminster *will* pay for that epilogue. If that makes somebody unhappy, then I'm sorry to hear it, but I won't apologize for it.

[Riona]

And my main beef with Elminster, as stated above, is Edwin's epilogue. Before that, I could tolerate him, but no longer. I'm not pretending to be in any way fair or unbiased about this, but this is how it is, and this is how it stays. Elminster *will* pay for that epilogue. If that makes somebody unhappy, then I'm sorry to hear it, but I won't apologize for it.

It doesn't make me "unhappy", but it does seem like you are punishing Elminster for what was a perfectly logical (and actually very lenient) thing to do. After all, I meant what I said when I told you that most would-be Elminster destroyers wind up dead, not a different gender.

I guess I can understand it, though--quite frankly, it p***es me off when people talk about hating and torturing Anomen (whom I love), but at the same time, it annoys me how so many people want to torture a character (Elminster) whom they seem too understand little, or at least not know the full truth about. Elminster is really a good-hearted person, but there is a limit to how much he can help. After all, the story is about what the PC does; having Elminster even take the time to help you is supposed to be a lucky bonus (that doesn't happen to most people).

PS: I take it you now agree with my comments on the Jaheira situation...?

[Laufey]

It doesn't make me "unhappy", but it does seem like you are punishing Elminster for what was a perfectly logical (and actually very lenient) thing to do. After all, I meant what I said when I told you that most would-be Elminster destroyers wind up dead, not a different gender.

I guess I can understand it, though--quite frankly, it p***es me off when people talk about hating and torturing Anomen (whom I love), but at the same time, it annoys me how so many people want to torture a character (Elminster) whom they seem too understand little, or at least not know the full truth about. Elminster is really a good-hearted person, but there is a limit to how much he can help. After all, the story is about what the PC does; having Elminster even take the time to help you is supposed to be a lucky bonus (that doesn't happen to most people).

PS: I take it you now agree with my comments on the Jaheira situation...?

Lenient? Not only turning him into a woman for all time, but taking his magic away? There is no way Edwina would be working as a barmaid if she could still function as a wizard. As far as I'm concerned, depriving a mage of his magic is a punishment far worse than death, it's much like poking out the eyes of an artist, or cutting the hands off a musician. No, it wasn't lenient. It was torture, lifelong torture. At least I won't do anything worse to Elminster than temporary inconvenience and humiliation.

Not to mention that Mystra has *no* business depriving a mage of his magic unless he threatens the very fabric of the Weave itself, according to official sourcebook material. Attacking her pet toy boy doesn't count as such in my book. If she does such a thing, she breaks her own rules.

And no, I still disagree about Jaheira. Elminster isn't obliged to go fight her foes for her, but he deliberately withheld the truth from her, and as I see it, let her go through mental anguish for no apparant reason. To me, he comes across as somebody who manipulates people for kicks. It wouldn't have cost him any trouble whatsoever to tell her the truth, but he has to make her 'prove her worth' or whatever.

[Laufey]

From what I remeber of Dorotea's comment, Edwina is not a barmaid (that's apparently Domi's own creation which is long forgotten by all), but a tavern's owner. And if Ribald the Great Adventurer can settle for owning a shop...why won't Edwina the Great Magesse won't settle for owning an Inn at the end of her days? Heck, her magic powers might even improve the trade...teleport spell to move those barrels here, disintegrate some rats there... Neat.

I'm afraid I can't go back and check, since I have the mod installed, my own epilogues have replaced the original one. But no, as I remember it the original said 'barmaid'. And as I said above, I interpret it as her having been deprived of her magic, otherwise I would see no reason for her not to function as a wizard.

[Riona]

Lenient? Not only turning him into a woman for all time, but taking his magic away? There is no way Edwina would be working as a barmaid if she could still function as a wizard. As far as I'm concerned, depriving a mage of his magic is a punishment far worse than death, it's much like poking out the eyes of an artist, or cutting the hands off a musician. No, it wasn't lenient. It was torture, lifelong torture. At least I won't do anything worse to Elminster than temporary inconvenience and humiliation.

Not to mention that Mystra has *no* business depriving a mage of his magic unless he threatens the very fabric of the Weave itself, according to official sourcebook material. Attacking her pet toy boy doesn't count as such in my book. If she does such a thing, she breaks her own rules.

And no, I still disagree about Jaheira. Elminster isn't obliged to go fight her foes for her, but he deliberately withheld the truth from her, and as I see it, let her go through mental anguish for no apparant reason. To me, he comes across as somebody who manipulates people for kicks. It wouldn't have cost him any trouble whatsoever to tell her the truth, but he has to make her 'prove her worth' or whatever. 

On Edwin: But it doesn't specifically say that Elminster did, in fact, take his magic away. Not to mention the fact that I don't recall Elminster even having the POWER to take anyone's magic away (Elminster is against that anyway, he believes in spreading the use of magic and accepts that many magic-users are evil--In El in Hell he attacks the Simbul because she was killing Red Wizards wantonly, in fact). I know it seems like a lame thing to say, but the circumstances of the whole thing are not really explained. Who knows why Edwin is working as a barmaid (or tavern owner, or whatever)? Maybe the Bioware designers just wanted a cheap laugh at his expense?

I would advise against blaming it on Elminster, because I seriously don't recall him having the power to take anyone's magic away--I know there are some terrible curses that can do this, but they would only be used if one's use of magic threatened the Weave--Elminster wouldn't have a person stripped of magic just because they attacked him.

Jaheira: I don't get how Elminster was "withholding the truth" from Jaheira, as you say. Contrary to popular belief, Elminster does not know everything, and while he may have known something was "going on", how do you know what the extent of his knowledge about Galvary and his friends was??? He probably felt that the situation would play itself out, as well--he wasn't trying to get Jaheira to "prove her worth" to her--IMO he already thought her a worthy person, or he wouldn't have personally given her a Harper Pin. As Mikka said, that isn't something that usually happens--he doesn't run the Harpers and does not ordinarily give out Pins.

If he did know, well, maybe he felt that she could learn something from it all. Yes, she went through some anguish, but most growing and learning comes through pain, not pleasure, happiness, or complacency. Even if this was the case, I still believe Elminster thought her a worthy person. This isn't "testing" her, it's just letting what will be, be.

[Riona]

Not to mention that Mystra has *no* business depriving a mage of his magic unless he threatens the very fabric of the Weave itself, according to official sourcebook material. Attacking her pet toy boy doesn't count as such in my book. If she does such a thing, she breaks her own rules.

And I take the stand that neither Mystra nor Elminster did any such thing.

[Laufey]

On Edwin: But it doesn't specifically say that Elminster did, in fact, take his magic away. Not to mention the fact that I don't recall Elminster even having the POWER to take anyone's magic away (Elminster is against that anyway, he believes in spreading the use of magic and excepts that many magic-users are evil). I know it seems like a lame thing to say, but the circumstances of the whole thing are not really explained. Who knows why Edwin is working as a barmaid (or tavern owner, or whatever)? Maybe the Bioware designers just wanted a cheap laugh at his expense?

I would advise against blaming it on Elminster, because I seriously don't recall him having the power to take anyone's magic away--I know there are some terrible curses that can do this, but they would only be used if one's use of magic threatened the Weave--Elminster wouldn't have a person stripped of magic just because they attacked him.

Jaheira: I don't get how Elminster was "withholding the truth" from Jaheira, as you say. Contrary to popular belief, Elminster does not know everything, and while he may have known something was "going on", how do you know what the extent of his knowledge about Galvary and his friends was??? He probably felt that the situation would play itself out, as well--he wasn't trying to get Jaheira to "prove her worth" to her--IMO he already thought her a worthy person, or he wouldn't have personally given her a Harper Pin. As Mikka said, that isn't something that usually happens--he doesn't run the Harpers and does not ordinarily give out Pins.

See my answer above. Regarding Edwin, I simply can't see him being a barmaid if he had any way of still functioning as a wizard. I know it can't be proven one way or another, but that's the way I see it. And Elminster himself may not have that power, but Mystra does. I know she's not supposed to use it that way, but that is certainly how it comes across to me in that epilogue. I think Bioware wrote it that way ignoring that Mystra *shouldn't* act like that, simply to torment Edwin a little extra. I'm surprised they didn't have Edwina raped by rampaging ogres too, for extra laughs.

And Elminster only gives Jaheira that Harper Pin *after* she has 'proven herself' by defending her actions to him.

This is more than anything a matter of interpretation, but I have my interpretation of the game events clear, and I'm sticking to it. Which means that Elminster will *suffer*. *evil cackle*

[Riona]

See my answer above. Regarding Edwin, I simply can't see him being a barmaid if he had any way of still functioning as a wizard. I know it can't be proven one way or another, but that's the way I see it. And Elminster himself may not have that power, but Mystra does. I know she's not supposed to use it that way, but that is certainly how it comes across to me in that epilogue. I think Bioware wrote it that way ignoring that Mystra *shouldn't* act like that, simply to torment Edwin a little extra. I'm surprised they didn't have Edwina raped by rampaging ogres too, for extra laughs.

And Elminster only gives Jaheira that Harper Pin *after* she has 'proven herself' by defending her actions to him.

This is more than anything a matter of interpretation, but I have my interpretation of the game events clear, and I'm sticking to it. Which means that Elminster will *suffer*. *evil cackle*

As I said, who knows what happened? Yes, maybe Bioware just went a little too far here. Maybe Mystra didn't take his magic away at all--maybe his former colleagues (the Red Wizards) found some way to do it (ie. an artifact).

Jaheira: I edited my post--please check it. In that post, I explain why the situation isn't about Elminster "testing her worth", and as I said before, Elminster doesn't have Jaheira "defend her actions to him"--after all, he essentially accepts, without judgement, whatever answer she gives him.

Definately not the same as going to a court of law about it.

I have my interpretations too, but be that as it may, I am enjoying this discussion and will not stop anytime soon.

[Laufey]

Jaheira: I edited my post--please check it. In that post, I explain why the situation isn't about Elminster "testing her worth", and as I said before, Elminster doesn't have Jaheira "defend her actions to him"--after all, he essentially accepts, without judgement, whatever answer she gives him.

Definately not the same as going to a court of law about it.

I have my interpretations too, but be that as it may, I am enjoying this discussion and will not stop anytime soon.

As I said, who knows what happened? Yes, maybe Bioware just went a little too far here. Maybe Mystra didn't take his magic away at all--maybe his former colleagues (the Red Wizards) found some way to do it (ie. an artifact).

Possible, but under the circumstances I find it highly unlikely. After all, the epilogue mentions only two things.

1) Edwin attacking Elminster

2) Edwin living in eternal misery as Edwina the barmaid.

Considering that, I find it very unlikely that anybody but Elminster did that, at his own or via Mystra. Not impossible, no, but very unlikely.


Jaheira: I edited my post--please check it. In that post, I explain why the situation isn't about Elminster "testing her worth", and as I said before, Elminster doesn't have Jaheira "defend her actions to him"--after all, he essentially accepts, without judgement, whatever answer she gives him.

Definately not the same as going to a court of law about it.

I have my interpretations too, but be that as it may, I am enjoying this discussion and will not stop anytime soon.

I was trying to look up the Elminster dialogue files, but I couldn't find them. Without those, I'm afraid I don't have anything further to add.

[Riona]

Possible, but under the circumstances I find it highly unlikely. After all, the epilogue mentions only two things.

1) Edwin attacking Elminster

2) Edwin living in eternal misery as Edwina the barmaid.

Considering that, I find it very unlikely that anybody but Elminster did that, at his own or via Mystra. Not impossible, no, but very unlikely...

I was trying to look up the Elminster dialogue files, but I couldn't find them. Without those, I'm afraid I don't have anything further to add.

*LOL* I don't know what else to say about Edwin other than that you could be right; although again, it doesn't *specifically* say that he lost his magic. Yes, I wouldn't expect him to become a barmaid if he still had his magic, but again, who knows?

Hmmm...later I might be able to refind those dialogue files. Did you look for "Terminsel", perhaps with a few letters before it?

But still, I think it's unfair to presume that he knew the *full* story about what was going on with Galvary and the rest of Athkatla's Harpers.

[Riona]

So I guess, yes, Edwina is a barmaid, but as Riona has noticed not through Elminster's influence, lol. Who is to say that Edwin did not just decide to put a cap on it all, he could not return to Thay, so he decided to make his leaving without using his magic - a pianist who played badly in an important performance, could become disillusioned and switch carrier, and so will mage.

Yes, who can say this isn't possible? Or that it isn't the result of something that doesn't involve Elminster or Mystra or even magic at all?

And I agree with Domi that this poll is biased, to say the least...not everyone hates Elminster, and I still believe that Edwin did get his "just desserts", as they say (he was lucky he wasn't killed outright, good thing he didn't challenge the Simbul).

[Andyr]

And again - why you are so convinced that the magic was taken away from him? Because he ended up as a barmaid and a bitter woman? Lol, the most talented person can be bitter and work at a non-professional job.

Plus, to be fair, why there is no option in the poll: "praise Elminster for what he has done to the most annoying Red Wizard" or something? It's sort of very bias as is right now.

I'd always taken Edwin's original epilogue as being a bit of a comedy ending- pride leads him to duel one of the most powerful spellcasters in the Realms, which is his downfall.....

I suspect the transformation to Edwina was Elminster's form of chastistement. I didn't think that Edwin as Edwina had lost the ability to cast spells, perhaps rather that (s)he realises he'd bitten off more than he could chew and should lay low.

Having said that if Edwina still had access to magic, I see no reason why she wouldn't just change herself back to Edwin again.

[Laufey]

.
And I agree with Domi that this poll is biased, to say the least...not everyone hates Elminster, and I still believe that Edwin did get his "just desserts", as they say (he was lucky he wasn't killed outright, good thing he didn't challenge the Simbul).

Well, what did you two expect? This *is* the Edwin Romance forum after all, not the 'punish Edwin mod forum'. If that's what you want, you'll have to look elsewhere. As I said before, it isn't *meant* to be fair, and I know it won't appeal to everybody. Still, anybody wanting to do nasty stuff to Edwin can still play the romance...I inserted plenty of opportunities to turn him down in the most cruel ways possible.

[Riona]

Well, what did you two expect? This *is* the Edwin Romance forum after all, not the 'punish Edwin mod forum'. If that's what you want, you'll have to look elsewhere. As I said before, it isn't *meant* to be fair, and I know it won't appeal to everybody. Still, anybody wanting to do nasty stuff to Edwin can still play the romance...I inserted plenty of opportunities to turn him down in the most cruel ways possible.

I didn't say I wanted to punish Edwin, I just said he got his "just desserts". You don't have to agree, but knowing what I do about Elminster (and the fates of those who try to kill him) I'd say Edwin got off easy.

What I don't like is all the "punish Elminster" hysteria here--that *doesn't* need to be in any romance. As I said, it just seems like many people hate him (without knowing too much about him--not necessarily you, but some people), and they are looking forward to "abusing" him. I like the character, and I object to this, within reason.

[Laufey]

Correct me if I am wrong, but did not you change the non-romance epilogue as well as in-romance one?

Correct. That is part of the romance download. If somebody wants the download but prefer the original non-romance epilogue I suppose they can alter it back manually, but otherwise this is how it is, since I want to be able to have non-romanced Edwin and still let him have a happy ending.

[Riona]

I suspect the transformation to Edwina was Elminster's form of chastistement. I didn't think that Edwin as Edwina had lost the ability to cast spells, perhaps rather that (s)he realises he'd bitten off more than he could chew and should lay low.

I agree, this is a very plausible explanation.