184 replies to this topic

[Laufey]

Hm, I wonder why you seem to think that disagreeing with me will get you flamed or slapped? Of course you have a right to think whatever you want, I don't get mad at people simply for disagreeing with me.

I don't think I feel up to debating Elminster though...for one thing I'm currently recovering from illness and don't feel so good, and for another thing I think I've pretty much said it all before, in different forums. That said, I still consider game Elminster a rotten stinking creep, for reasons I've listed previously, and that's not an opinion likely to change. It's just that we interpret his behavior in the game very differently, which is a natural thing. He might be better in the books, that I have no opinion about.

My advice to you is: If the epilogues badly bother you, try to remember that the focus of them is still Edwin, not Elminster. El's various nasty fates is really just the extra spice. You can always ignore that, and pretend it didn't happen, much as I do with the 'official' epilogue.

[likpok]

star, you forgot the old standby...

dragon dung!!!!!!!!!

not only is it stinky, but it has a good chance of drowning him...in huge steaming piles bigger than haystacks....    

Dang, I thought I forgot something .

3) Pit Fiend (that could get ugly)
4) Godzilla (couldn't resist putting this one)


Handcuffed to Aerie DOES sound painful . With polymorph to Neeber, it gets better!

Try polymorphiong Aerie to neeber, and Smelly Elly to Noober

[Laufey]

Try polymorphiong Aerie to neeber, and Smelly Elly to Noober

Ooooh, now that was *wicked*!

[Laufey]

Two motives:

1º Friend , Edwin Romance is , at the very least , a humouristic mod .
Baldur's Gate series are getting older , we *need* original mods like this one .

2º we wanna kick Elminster's buttocks !

1. Thank you kindly! Yes, it's mean to be humorous, and I'm glad you appreciate it.

2. AYE!

[Riona]

Second problem with doing bad things to Elminster. While you would instantly become the toast of an evil-doers cocktail party, you would have a small army of Chosen of Mystra after you. Not to mention Larloc,...

Larloch being who he is--an epic level LE lich who only cares about keeping to himself--I doubt he'd come after you in defense of Elminster. Everything else you said is true, though!

I like Elminster...not just because he is so powerful, I like his character. Also, he isn't a clone of Gandalf. His creator, Ed Greenwood, based him off a number of different characters, including some modern comedians.

By the way, Gandalf isn't a completely original character himself.

[Riona]

When you refer to Elminster acting like a jerk in the game, are you refering to his refusal to get further involved? If so, then you should recall Cyric's comments about the the other gods not being allowed to get involved in the Bhaalspawn mess. Elminster being a Chosen of Mystra, would probably fall under the prohibition.

Also, this is supposed to be the PC's story, not Elminster's. It is Elminster's way to give a helping hand, but not lead the hero around by the nose. Elminster can only be in one place at one time, and there are things that threaten the Realms besides the whole Bhaalspawn mess.

By the way, I agree that the whole "Chosen of Mystra" thing is blown out of proportion. Just remember, though, what El was originally designed as--a crazy old man who is a font of Realmslore, an advice giver, a quest giver, an information giver...he was never even meant to be the hero of any novels, either, it's just that fans wanted those books (so Greenwood wrote them).

[Riona]

Fourth, he is not the one who runs the Harpers. He does NOT choose when someone gets their pin. Him giving Jaheria her harper pin, however, is like a zulkier(sp) giving Edwin his red wizard robes- quite over the top, and a great honor. He respects her strength, and she looks up to him. It's that simple.

I agree with you totally. Elminster doesn't know about everything going on--he didn't "let Jaheira go through a lot of pain"; he may not have even known about the events happening in Athkatla until it was all over.

The characters in your party are important, but they aren't the center of all Faerun. Elminster has so many things to think about--he has even acknowledged in the books that he can't be everywhere at once. He does he best to help, but he can't look over the hero's shoulder, either.

Blaming Elminster for the PC's problems is silly--he does more to help than harm, but ultimately you have to help yourself.

[Laufey]

[I agree with you totally. Elminster doesn't know about everything going on--he didn't "let Jaheira go through a lot of pain"; he may not have even known about the events happening in Athkatla until it was all over.

The characters in your party are important, but they aren't the center of all Faerun. Elminster has so many things to think about--he has even acknowledged in the books that he can't be everywhere at once. He does he best to help, but he can't look over the hero's shoulder, either.

Blaming Elminster for the PC's problems is silly--he does more to help than harm, but ultimately you have to help yourself.

But Elminster did know. Remember 'Terminsel' who turned up during the game? Yes, he lets the PC know that Jaheira has gone back to Harper Hold. But he didn't in any way let Jaheira know that the Harpers under Galvarey were frauds, he didn't offer her so much as a word of comfort, instead he kept manipulating her, and in the very last encounter she's supposed to 'justify' her actions to him.

No, while I know that there are some people who feel for the old coot, I'm adamant about this. As far as I'm concerned, Elminster is a bastard.

[silver]

[/QUOTE]No, while I know that there are some people who feel for the old coot, I'm adamant about this. As far as I'm concerned, Elminster is a bastard. [QUOTE]

*grins* I think he was a bit of a bastard too, although I still can't decide whether I hate him or Drizzt more. But each to their own I suppose...after all I've found myself growing quite fond of Artemis Entreri lately. *Ducks rotten fruit* What can I say, I've been writing about him and although he's an idiot, he's grown on me. So who knows, maybe I'll grow to like the stupid wizard and his stupid hat in time too.

[El Diablo]

artemis is cool but im more fond of jarlaxle the best FR char ever

[Laufey]

No, while I know that there are some people who feel for the old coot, I'm adamant about this. As far as I'm concerned, Elminster is a bastard.

*grins* I think he was a bit of a bastard too, although I still can't decide whether I hate him or Drizzt more. But each to their own I suppose...after all I've found myself growing quite fond of Artemis Entreri lately. *Ducks rotten fruit* What can I say, I've been writing about him and although he's an idiot, he's grown on me. So who knows, maybe I'll grow to like the stupid wizard and his stupid hat in time too.

I don't like any member of that Terrible Trio...but hey, to each his or her own.

[Theodur]

[I agree with you totally.  Elminster doesn't know about everything going on--he didn't "let Jaheira go through a lot of pain"; he may not have even known about the events happening in Athkatla until it was all over.

The characters in your party are important, but they aren't the center of all Faerun.  Elminster has so many things to think about--he has even acknowledged in the books that he can't be everywhere at once.  He does he best to help, but he can't look over the hero's shoulder, either.

Blaming Elminster for the PC's problems is silly--he does more to help than harm, but ultimately you have to help yourself.

But Elminster did know. Remember 'Terminsel' who turned up during the game? Yes, he lets the PC know that Jaheira has gone back to Harper Hold. But he didn't in any way let Jaheira know that the Harpers under Galvarey were frauds, he didn't offer her so much as a word of comfort, instead he kept manipulating her, and in the very last encounter she's supposed to 'justify' her actions to him.

Yep, I think precisely the same. I think he was having a sadistic pleasure watching Jaheira go through that terrible ordeal as if it was some kind of quest or if she had to prove something to him. I guess that is one way to enjoy the power that being The chosen of Mystra gives to him.

[dorotea]

By the way, I agree that the whole "Chosen of Mystra" thing is blown out of proportion. Just remember, though, what El was originally designed as--a crazy old man who is a font of Realmslore, an advice giver, a quest giver, an information giver...he was never even meant to be the hero of any novels, either, it's just that fans wanted those books (so Greenwood wrote them).

That is what puzzles me most about El. When you read his 'Ecologies' and assessories - his voice is perfectly 'in character'. Grumpy old man and a funny one, I rather like him. But when you read these novels ... mein gott! I got an instant dislike of him after I discovered he was a 'prince in disguise' and heir of 'royal blood' and Mystra's lover. By the time he got to sleeping with Midnight I actively hated him, his 'adventures' in Myth Drannor made me want to blow him up ( it was like - does he have to 'outmagic' every elven high-mage and use kiira without any harm to himself?) What a load of uber-crap!

I hope he will stay in Hell - this is a perfect place for the old goat. He was turned from rather vague and loveable old legend into a 'super-duper hero' with 'bulging muscles' ( and other parts). Grin. Now I can almost visualize El flying over Toril with his purple cloak streaming after him, and the funny music going in the background ...

Teh whole Avatars trilogy quality is enough to put anyone off the Realms forever. And I heard they are re-printing it with a new cover. Bleurgh. How about the new manuscript?

[Riona]

But Elminster did know. Remember 'Terminsel' who turned up during the game? Yes, he lets the PC know that Jaheira has gone back to Harper Hold. But he didn't in any way let Jaheira know that the Harpers under Galvarey were frauds, he didn't offer her so much as a word of comfort, instead he kept manipulating her, and in the very last encounter she's supposed to 'justify' her actions to him.

No, while I know that there are some people who feel for the old coot, I'm adamant about this. As far as I'm concerned, Elminster is a bastard.

Alright, granted, he knew, but how does that make him "manipulating" her? I don't get it. How can you honestly say Elminster wasn't short on time and had only enough time to give the PC a heads-up? Besides, Jaheira was out of the party when he gives the note (which he claims to have found blowing in the wind), how could he have given her words of comfort??? Also, Elminster--at the end--is letting Jaheira judge the worth of her own actions, he isn't asking her to "justify" her actions to him. It seems to me as though you are seeing this in the worst way possible.

And, simply put, Elminster is not responsible for the mental well-being of Jaheira or the PC or anyone else. To imply that he should be is absurd. As I said, he can't be everywhere at once, and it's not like he does nothing--there are always important events (involving bad guys) that need his attention. The fact that he gives the matter attention at all shows geniune concern on his part, in my opinion. In no way is he *obligated* to help you or your party. Elminster is a believer in helping others, but also letting them solve their problems on their own (and thus, learning).

It really does seem to me like many of the people posting in this thread don't really understand Elminster, or have a lot of misconceptions about him. Userunfriendly even admitted that she (he?) never actually read novels or books about him, and that her opinion is based on how he acts in the game. Is this fair? I agree with Mikka that it does seem like this mod may become a vechicle for "Elminster abuse" just because the creator happens to hate him.

PS: If Edwin showed up at El's house trying to kill him, then he deserved what he got, I'm sorry. By the way, Edwin got it easy. His gender was changed, but he didn't end up a pile of smoking ashes as do most of the Zhentarim/Red Wizard agents who show up trying to kill him. What do you expect El to do other than defend himself?

[Laufey]

That is what puzzles me most about El. When you read his 'Ecologies' and assessories - his voice is perfectly 'in character'. Grumpy old man and a funny one, I rather like him. But when you read these novels ... mein gott! I got an instant dislike of him after I discovered he was a 'prince in disguise' and heir of 'royal blood' and Mystra's lover. By the time he got to sleeping with Midnight I actively hated him, his 'adventures' in Myth Drannor made me want to blow him up ( it was like - does he have to 'outmagic' every elven high-mage and use kiira without any harm to himself?) What a load of uber-crap!

I hope he will stay in Hell - this is a perfect place for the old goat. He was turned from rather vague and loveable old legend into a 'super-duper hero' with 'bulging muscles' ( and other parts). Grin. Now I can almost visualize El flying over Toril with his purple cloak streaming after him, and the funny music going in the background ...

Teh whole Avatars trilogy quality is enough to put anyone off the Realms forever. And I heard they are re-printing it with a new cover. Bleurgh. How about the new manuscript?

Yeah...I haven't read those books, but they sound completely awful. I think that if they had simply kept Elminster an old and powerful wizard, he would have been an OK character. But all those ridiculous godlike powers, not to mention 'royal blood' etc and etc make me want to vomit straight into his pointy hat.

[Riona]

Yep, I think precisely the same. I think he was having a sadistic pleasure watching Jaheira go through that terrible ordeal as if it was some kind of quest or if she had to prove something to him. I guess that is one way to enjoy the power that being The chosen of Mystra gives to him.

*sigh* I don't see it that way at all. Besides, he isn't the type of person to go on a power trip--unlike most archmages (including many good ones) he isn't pretentious and tends not to care what other people think of him.

Calling him a "tormenter of Jaheira" is, as I said, absurd. Frankly, I don't think Jaheira is the type of person to want to be pulled out of that mess, anyway--through her own actions and the help of the PC, she gets through it. She learns some lessons, and is the better for it.

Elminster doesn't exist to solve all your problems. Besides, he earned his power--I've read all his novels and trust me, he had to work to become what he is now, his power was not bestowed upon him.

[Riona]

That is what puzzles me most about El. When you read his 'Ecologies' and assessories - his voice is perfectly 'in character'. Grumpy old man and a funny one, I rather like him. But when you read these novels ... mein gott! I got an instant dislike of him after I discovered he was a 'prince in disguise' and heir of 'royal blood' and Mystra's lover. By the time he got to sleeping with Midnight I actively hated him, his 'adventures' in Myth Drannor made me want to blow him up ( it was like - does he have to 'outmagic' every elven high-mage and use kiira without any harm to himself?) What a load of uber-crap!

I hope he will stay in Hell - this is a perfect place for the old goat. He was turned from rather vague and loveable old legend into a 'super-duper hero' with 'bulging muscles' ( and other parts). Grin. Now I can almost visualize El flying over Toril with his purple cloak streaming after him, and the funny music going in the background ...

I will agree that at times, Ed Greenwood's novels can be silly and over-the-top. Elminster doesn't annoy me the way the Seven Sisters do, though (also known as the "Seven Sues")--these tall, beautiful, silver-haired women are powerful, brilliant, kind and have few to no flaws. At least Elminster will walk around in robes covered with food stains and not care.

If you guys want a good (or at least better) picture of how Elminster behaves in the Realms, read Spellfire. If you hate him, you probably still will, but he explains certain things such as why he can't be everywhere at once.

[Riona]

Yeah...I haven't read those books, but they sound completely awful.

There you go. Preconcieved notions, and all that.

The books are not, in my opinion, "completely awful", just silly at times, and they make me nostalgic for the Elminster who is the Old Sage who gives the PCs information and advice. Realize, though, that Elminster was always meant to be a kooky character (personality-wise)--if you take him too seriously, I swear you will never fully understand him.

[Riona]

Let me add one more thing: I understand that Laufey's fan fics are supposed to be funny (I've read some of them, they really *are* funny), but whatever flaws the characters of Elminster and Drizzt might have (ie. too perfect, too powerful, whatever), I have to agree that the Elminster and Drizzt--in those stories--are completely out-of-character and don't act anything like they are supposed to, according to not only the novels but also FR sources.

I will repeat once more:

Elminster does not exist to solve all your PC's problems, and he is not responsible for the physical or mental well-being of the PC, or anyone else's character.

If he intervenes with your character, either count yourself lucky that he made a place in his busy schedule to help you, or don't complain that he didn't "help you more". Or both.