7 replies to this topic

[Radish]

In her first banter with Nalia, Fade eventually says the following: "Oh? Really? So how did your lounging around in your huge castle while they toiled in the fields to ensure there was food on your table help them, exactly? By giving them employment?"

In response, Nalia says this: "I cannot help it if I was born privileged! I have never been cruel to any of the castles servants. I have always treated them with respect, and spared a coin when I could."

However, what she should have said is this: "By giving them protection, you nincompoop! That is the reason the nobility exists: to fund an army to police their land and protect it from bandits and monsters, and to create a defensible stronghold for people to take refuge in in the case of an invasion."

Though really, Fade would have known all that already, since feudalism is a cornerstone of pretty much every society in Faerun (and no small number of other regions on Toril and throughout the planes). It'd be the kind of thing everyone just picks up, much like knowledge of the fact that rain is made of water.

Of similar ubiquity is the fact that society does not evolve at random. Every social institution had some perceived benefit for all when it was first conceived (except foreigners, nobody ever cared about them). That includes aristocracy.

[SConrad]

Interesting post, and an aspect definitely worth discussing. However, I somehow doubt that "the reason the nobility exists" in a feudalistic society is to protect the peasants. Although I'm fairly certain many noblemen over the years have acknowledged this duty and lived by it, I don't think it was the fundamental motive of creating a nobility in the first place.

As for this being knowledge similar to rain being made of water, I'm not sure about that either. I believe this has much to do with the environment someone is brought up in - for a peasant living at the mercy of a nobleman who does not abide the duty to protect his peers, it's going to be very hard to accept or understand the concept. Same, of course, goes for the nobleman.

But yes, I see your point about Nalia. She should be aware of this and I think it's a point lost to many mod writers, not just Fade's.

[Radish]

However, I somehow doubt that "the reason the nobility exists" in a feudalistic society is to protect the peasants. Although I'm fairly certain many noblemen over the years have acknowledged this duty and lived by it, I don't think it was the fundamental motive of creating a nobility in the first place.

It was surely some part of the equation. Long ago any position of authority would have to be created by those ruled, and no one would consent to such a thing if there was no benefit in it for them. Granted, a roaming war band could demand authority at the point of whatever sharp implements happened to be available, but they certainly wouldn't be deluded into thinking they got any real trust and cooperation that way. Likely part of the reason why they roamed: they couldn't take the risk of closing their eyes anywhere near those they terrorized.

As for this being knowledge similar to rain being made of water, I'm not sure about that either. I believe this has much to do with the environment someone is brought up in - for a peasant living at the mercy of a nobleman who does not abide the duty to protect his peers, it's going to be very hard to accept or understand the concept. Same, of course, goes for the nobleman.

Not every noble would see it as carrying out their duty as a servant of their people, no, but self-interest is a more than adequate motivation in place of duty. Very bad for a lord's well-being to let his farmers be killed and his lands stolen or despoiled. And peasants under a tyrannical lord might know better than anyone that the wealth of the nobility is taken from them, and that the nobles need them alive and working. Which they know may not spare any individual from unfair treatment up to and including death, but does ensure that if they run to the lord's manor to report that the Brandonmire off Wesley is under attack by northern barbarians, they can expect the lord to say, "Those treacherous dogs! Marcus, fetch Captain Higsford! Tell him we march at dawn!"

Or somesuch.

[SConrad]

It was surely some part of the equation.

Part of the equation, possibly. But certainly not the only or most important reason as you suggested in your first post.

And my personal theory is that "we'll give you protection!" in most cases were said out of personal gain instead of a real concern for the peasants. Most noblemen would say it just because they lean on the peasants to do their dirty work.

[Kulyok]

To me it seems as if both Fade and Nalia were aware of the fact, it's just Nalia might consider using this argument beneath herself(since she thinks that the current system is unjust), and Fade's just being mean here, anyway - I am sure that, should Nalia use the protection argument, Fade'd just say something equally nasty.

[Tassadar88]

And as far as the de¨Arnise goes, they also keep the law over there, settle disputes and maintain the facilities (meaning the dykes )

[Radish]

And my personal theory is that "we'll give you protection!" in most cases were said out of personal gain instead of a real concern for the peasants. Most noblemen would say it just because they lean on the peasants to do their dirty work.

Absolutely. No reason the whole arrangement couldn't have been selfishly motivated by all involved from the very beginning.

To me it seems as if both Fade and Nalia were aware of the fact, it's just Nalia might consider using this argument beneath herself(since she thinks that the current system is unjust)

Granted, the better argument for Nalia would be to mention that she probably doesn't spend any more time lounging in her "castle" than she absolutely has to (and certainly isn't right then, is she?). Her father takes good care of their people, after all; the needy are elsewhere. However, Fade's suggested "giving them employment" clearly indicated the need for a bit of education, and you know how Nalia is around the needy Vassals aren't employees. They're just farmers, and they work their own farms, albeit on land belonging to the lord/lady. What food they pull out of the ground is mostly theirs to do with as they please, though the lord/lady might demand a tithe.

As for what Nalia finds unfair, it is not likely any of what I had her describe. After all, pooling shares of wealth from everyone in the land to pay for matters of defense, and having someone or someones in charge of how to put the wealth to that purpose, is the most basic function of every government to this day. Nalia's problem with aristocracy would probably be the selection process for who gets put in charge; that being birthright, a decidedly unreliable method. That would be her core problem, anyway. Most of the time, however, she seems happy enough just complaining about the symptoms of that problem.