103 replies to this topic

[Kellen]

I want to throw in my "Female Dwarven Cleric yay!" into the pile

[Miloch]

And you just play for the strategy, so you'd be SOL anyway.

If your idea of 'strategy' is 'looting and pillaging everything in sight' then yeah . Actually I don't really even play, what with fixpacking and all - and even *that* just concerns BG1 for now, not BG2.

But I do think it'd be cool to have a strong female NPC in the front lines who is witty but not a complete bitch. Someone who could slice up a pack of gnolls and then just watch bemusedly while the PC struggles with the last one or two. Then ask after the battle if there was a problem with his sword or something. Not that *I* would be struggling but er... some other PC, yeah.

For those growling about a female dwarf cleric/scholar - check out Finch for Tutu. Yeah, she's a gnome but close enough, right? All those short folk are the same to me. Not that there couldn't be more of the same - I'm actually not that fussy when it comes to NPCs. As long as they're not halflings, the thieving little gits. They'll pinch everything that's not nailed down before even *I* can swipe the stuff.

[Azkyroth]

It is the end of the male hegemony on carefully cultivated stupidity .

I think the fact that, based on my observations, the majority of disparaging comments about weight directed at women originate from other women singlehandedly indicates that no such thing has ever existed.

Back on topic, sounds good. I have never been one for the removal of the battle of the sexes, as there is way too much of the human condition tied up in its full play of ideas. I will admit to enjoying my Paladin romancing Aerie onoccasion, in spite of the preeteen or teen feel of the romance, with my role always in the driving seat (now don't go there.... Paladin, remember? ).

It's still not clear to me what you mean by this, beyond it not sounding even remotely like my experience or that of anyone I know.

But I do think it'd be cool to have a strong female NPC in the front lines who is witty but not a complete bitch. Someone who could slice up a pack of gnolls and then just watch bemusedly while the PC struggles with the last one or two. Then ask after the battle if there was a problem with his sword or something. Not that *I* would be struggling but er... some other PC, yeah.

Let me get back to you on that. ^.^

[Magnus_025]

Options 1) and 2) are very appealing to me! I would enjoy a game with any of them a lot, but then we also have option 3)!!! Whoah...hmmm Berelinde have you considered leaving you job (and let others to carry heavy weights without you) and make all 3 npcs? please?
Ha, ha, just kidding of course (of course?), well I will prefer option 1, there are some good mages over there (including Imoen and Nalia) but very few fighter who can get their weapon proficiencies at maximum (something very needed for some difficult mods like Improved Anvil) and as the general idea of this topic, so very few mods with ToB for Male Pcs. Yes, I have decided myself: Female Human Fighter please, and the idea of a mature romance different from Viconia's or Jaheira's (Aerie's is a teenager romance) is something I need to play definitely.
But again, do as you want, it will be great. And to get in your thinking I will download Gavin now to read his .D file (I would try him but I can't install both Tutu and Soa in my computer). Who knows, you will maybe have me as a fan in a few days.

Edited by Magnus_025, 27 April 2007 - 12:11 AM.

[Miloch]

Hmm.

Shame on you for suggesting berelinde would make such a character. Tsk, tsk. Don't take that suggestion seriously, berelinde.

Overpowered? If I go with an unkitted fighter, not likely. If I go with a ranger, possibly, but it's a powerful class.

Actually, neither class is overpowered, heh. We're talking about two of the most basic classes in the IE games. And a ranger even less than a fighter due to their crippled proficiencies (see Magnus_025's comment above). Now a cleric/ranger with Ashes of Ember allowing them to wield the Doomsword of Omigosh... now you're sneaking into overpowered territory.

Maybe a +1 weapon, but I wouldn't bank on it.

Eh... masterwork rapier, with a main-gauche in the off hand. I've been dying for a reason to introduce some fencing weapons to the game.

[cmorgan]

Azkyroth, I think you were calling on this, right?

I have never been one for the removal of the battle of the sexes, as there is way too much of the human condition tied up in its full play of ideas.

If so, no problem - what I was saying, expanded, is: one can argue much of western literature revolves around the changing roles, ideas, and challenges surrounding ideas of sexuality and gender, and you can see lots of fertile ground there for the exploration of the human condition. (Well, that, war, and religion, but I think most folks would say there are too many interrelationships between these to make teasing them apart grounds for a computer game plot ! ). After all, after eating and breathing, it is part of the animal nature of humans, and almost every culture and subculture builds their own versions of "normal" and "deviant" variations on this theme.

I, being a straight western male, have not ever had any qualms about playing games, reading stories, or following plotlines that glorify and exploit western male stereotypes about women, because they are created directly to stroke the male ego and tell the stories in such a way as to make my particular sub-culture feel in control, powerful, and interested. The Aerie romance is just about the most simplified version of this set of stereotypes, thus earning it a "teen" or "pre-teen" rating in my personal lexicon; I have played it and enjoyed it, with full consiousness that this was a silly fantasy. Plus, I'm not actually travelling through life with her; would have been divorced and in therapy within months. My relatively liberal self does not enjoy some of the explicitness found in same-gender romance (plus I keep forgetting which is defined as the equipment portion and which is defined as the non-equipment portion), but most of it appears to have a sense of shared equality. Most of the folks I have hung out with in RL over the years (which is a far-ranging blend of folks for whom "normal" is a perjorative term levelled at others who still think with their equipment rather than their brains) seem to be much more aware of the damage it does to the modern social fabric, but then I am comfortable with the role of "normal"

While I have never raised objections directly to the manipulation inherent in such a stereotypical exploration of Romance, the male romance characters written by the authors above designed for female protagonist romances seem to me to be much better at avoiding those stereotypes and allowing the characters more depth and difference. In short, they are more "fun", more challenging, and more interesting to interact with. They seem much more in tune with plot, supportive without a loss of self, much less likely to drop into the characterization link above about the "Mary Sue" character.

As for Mary Sue, in my opinion she is probably the worst insult one could use against a modder/mod, as it directly states that the modder built an invincible perfect fantasy wish fulfillment instead of a balanced, strong, independent character, and failed the basic precept of group storytelling: add without taking over. After all, in a Hero Epic, there is only one Hero - the PC, Hero of the Small Screen. A Mary Sue is a cheap Total Conversion that makes the story about Him/Her rather than the PC. Just like in real life, the important part about playing is not accomplishing the goal, but the stuff you do getting there. Mary Sues and their ilk eventually fall flat because they end up shortchanging the player. In Fairy-Tale literature, they are the "Married the Prince And Lived Happily Ever After". Any of us who have sustained a marriage for more than a few years (and probably many more who are working hard on a subsequent one) can tell you that that one particular "wedding scene" in a romance is wonderful, but that the real fun and important stuff happens in the... what next?

back onto the central topic, I think you are in safe territory, berelinde. No Mary Sue possible here, mostly because you would be ticked off with her long before you got her to playtesters. Miloch and I, with our half-Dryad flirty minx fetishes, well, we would write Mary Sues - and Miloch is too busy and I can't write dialogue, so the world is safe for a few more years!!!! And I think I should not have four cups of coffee before getting home to post. And I need to get off philosophy and back onto either coding or playing - Azkyroth, I'm cool with you tossing a response here, but then if you would like I have no problem having a friendly PM debate over stuff!

[Azkyroth]

If so, no problem - what I was saying, expanded, is: one can argue much of western literature revolves around the changing roles, ideas, and challenges surrounding ideas of sexuality and gender, and you can see lots of fertile ground there for the exploration of the human condition. (Well, that, war, and religion, but I think most folks would say there are too many interrelationships between these to make teasing them apart grounds for a computer game plot ! ). After all, after eating and breathing, it is part of the animal nature of humans, and almost every culture and subculture builds their own versions of "normal" and "deviant" variations on this theme.

I, being a straight western male, have not ever had any qualms about playing games, reading stories, or following plotlines that glorify and exploit western male stereotypes about women, because they are created directly to stroke the male ego and tell the stories in such a way as to make my particular sub-culture feel in control, powerful, and interested. The Aerie romance is just about the most simplified version of this set of stereotypes, thus earning it a "teen" or "pre-teen" rating in my personal lexicon; I have played it and enjoyed it, with full consiousness that this was a silly fantasy. Plus, I'm not actually travelling through life with her; would have been divorced and in therapy within months. My relatively liberal self does not enjoy some of the explicitness found in same-gender romance (plus I keep forgetting which is defined as the equipment portion and which is defined as the non-equipment portion), but most of it appears to have a sense of shared equality. Most of the folks I have hung out with in RL over the years (which is a far-ranging blend of folks for whom "normal" is a perjorative term levelled at others who still think with their equipment rather than their brains) seem to be much more aware of the damage it does to the modern social fabric, but then I am comfortable with the role of "normal"

There are two problems I have with this general approach. The first is that failure, due to lack of inclination or imagination, to challenge prevailing notions about gender and sexuality (usually coupled to an off-handed and dismissive comment about the "nature" of certain groups and concept and at least two or three misused derivatives of "obvious") has effectively salted a great deal of that ground in both literature and society for most of human history, and even today cultural norms and "everyone knows"es are granting a completely unearned momentum to scripted societal roles and expectations that cannot even crawl, let alone stand, on their own merits, to the detriment of everyone involved. The second is the overgeneralization; I am also a (almost completely) straight Western male and yet have very little patience with traditional archetypes and expectations of gender roles and relations, in real life or in stories.

While I have never raised objections directly to the manipulation inherent in such a stereotypical exploration of Romance, the male romance characters written by the authors above designed for female protagonist romances seem to me to be much better at avoiding those stereotypes and allowing the characters more depth and difference. In short, they are more "fun", more challenging, and more interesting to interact with. They seem much more in tune with plot, supportive without a loss of self, much less likely to drop into the characterization link above about the "Mary Sue" character.

This is what we've seen so far, but it's both possible and worthwhile to get away from it. I'm certainly doing the best I can with Arkalian, and I think it's safe to say Berelinde will with whoever.

[Miloch]

*peers at cmorgan* *peers at Azkyroth* Enough talk! We no stair-e-o-types! Now for the drinking, fighting and wenching!

Miloch and I, with our half-Dryad flirty minx fetishes, well, we would write Mary Sues

Eh... speak for yourself there. *My* dryad NPC would have plenty of... depth. Very... well-developed. A most dynamically... proportioned... character. Ok, that's enough Miloch *whaps self upside the orcish skull*.

and Miloch is too busy and I can't write dialogue, so the world is safe for a few more years!!!!

Eh well you're right there, at least on the first account. I don't foresee having the time or skill to write an NPC, so I'll just thinly-veil my ideas and babble like a senile fool about them in other people's NPC threads. If I did muster either the skill or time though, I doubt I could write for a "good" NPC. I doubt I could write for a truly evil NPC either. But Walking the Line, that's something I might be able to write for, someday.

[Kellen]

I can't write dialogue

I object! You are excellent at writing what dialog I've seen so far.

As for B. Well, she is quite fantastic too, and I can't wait to see what she cooks up here.

[berelinde]

So, now I've got something that's shaping up into an idea, but it still needs a name... and that's where I get stumped.

Choices, in no particular order:

Elis, Vera, Alina (love it, and it would be my first pick, if it didn't sound like Jelina), Serena (last pick), Maris, Avina (since Alina's probably a no-go)

Edited by berelinde, 04 May 2007 - 06:40 AM.

[Kellen]

I really like Vera, Elis. and Alina is pretty nice as well. My only problem being the insane amount of A names already used.

[Kulyok]

Elis, Vera, Alina (love it, and it would be my first pick, if it didn't sound like Jelina), Serena (last pick), Maris, Avina (since Alina's probably a no-go)

Why, Alina the admin of Aerie.ru forums might be flattered. I wish I knew anybody in the community named Vera, but no. (Both are popular female Russian names, and there's a Serena in the Attic - not that you don't know it already).

Next to Minsc and Erevan, though, I think you are really, really safe and can pick whatever you want.

(Well, except for Lady Vanya. When I saw *that* in some mod, I couldn't breathe for laughing - whoever wrote it had a really wicked sense of humor.)

[berelinde]

Why, Alina the admin of Aerie.ru forums might be flattered.

I don't read or speak Russian, so I've never actually been to Aerie.ru. But I'm inclined not to choose it because it does sound a lot like Jelina. There are enough choices out there without picking something that sounds like another joinable NPC.

I wish I knew anybody in the community named Vera, but no. (Both are popular female Russian names, and there's a Serena in the Attic - not that you don't know it already).

Don't like the name Vera? I don't know anyone who uses the name, either as their own name or as the name of any character, so it was fair game.

Actually, I had no idea about Serena. I'm trying to pick an entirely human name, so I'm steering clear of anything that might look or sound Elvish. Thus, I discarded my first choice: Eleniel, and several other choices.

(Well, except for Lady Vanya. When I saw *that* in some mod, I couldn't breathe for laughing - whoever wrote it had a really wicked sense of humor.)

If it's the mod I think it is, please allow me to tell you in no uncertain terms that the person who suggested the name in the first place has absolutely no idea what you are talking about. It's an elvish name, and it sounded good. That was about all the thought that went into it. So any humor value is entirely accidental, unfortunately.

[Orthodoxia]

Don't like the name Vera? I don't know anyone who uses the name, either as their own name or as the name of any character, so it was fair game.

Vera is a quite popular name around here. It means 'Faith', if you're interested for your character to have anything to do with faith itself. I quite like the sound of it myself.

[vilkacis]

I like Elis.

Everything else aside, I would personally avoid using Serena simply for the fact that it feels kind of like a typical Mary Sue name.

(Wait, am I allowed to say that in this thread?)

[berelinde]

Serena is my last choice, partially because it does sound like a Mary Sue name, but also because it's too long. At this point, I'm favoring Elis or Vera. Four letters, and easy to remember.

[Kellen]

I like both.

EDIT: But there's a possibility I have a preference. There's a possibility I prefer Vera. Possibly.

Edited by Kellen, 04 May 2007 - 02:36 PM.

[Kaeloree]

What about Elina?

[berelinde]

I like Elina, but it sounds too much like Jelina, an NPC that is in it's final stages of development at G3. Kind of a shame, really, but she's had her name before I ever decided I might want to write a romanceable female.

[Kaeloree]

Oh! Of course. XD

Hmm... Elisa? 'Elis' sounds a little masculine; Elise, maybe? Not sure.