40 replies to this topic

[Kulyok]

I meant slots, yes. That is, he still knows the same amount of spells, but can cast only three Magic Missiles spells per day(low CHA), as opposed to six(high CHA).

[GeN1e]

I meant slots, yes.

Then it's not hopeless. However I'm not sure (or rather don't know) how this progression should be.

BTW, yesterday I've found some info about kensais - that thier AC should be (23-DEX + 1/3 level). But haven't found any confirmation of this.

[Miloch]

Although monks did exist in 1E and 2E, they were quite different than those present in 3E. The 2E monk in particular was simply a variant cleric, with a different selection of spells, unable to wear armor, and an AC bonus every even level. Given the monk class in Baldur's Gate 2 isn't a spellcaster and has abilities such as stunning blow and lay on hands, and gains immunity to disease, poison, charm, etc (all of the monk didn't have before 3E), the BG2 class is obviously based on the 3E incarnation.

The 1st edition monk was closer to a thief than a cleric. They didn't get spells, but got stealth, trap finding and even lockpicking. From the 1985 Oriental Adventures (basically a restatement of the 1e PHB class description):

Monks are ascetics who learn their skills at one of the several monastic enclaves found throughout Kara-Tur [giving the Forgotten Realms' "orient" quite a history].

Although a monk cannot wear any armor, he is trained to avoid blows through nimbleness and agility. A 1st-level monk has AC10. This improves as the monk advances.

At 5th level the monk is immune to all types of disease and is unaffected by all types of haste or slow spells.

At 7th level the monk, by concentrating on his inner power, can heal 2-5 points of damage on his own body per day [I guess a self-"lay on hands" at least].

At 9th level... charm, hypnosis and suggestion spells of all types have only a 50% chance to affect the monk. This resistance improves by 5% at every level beyond 9th.

At 11th level the monk is immune to all types of poison.

At 13th level the monk automatically gains one martial arts special maneuver of the player's choice [this includes things like stunning touch, crushing blow, etc.].

So I think that covers all those things you mentioned about the BG2 monk class. Now I'm not saying it's *exactly* how the monk operates in BG2, or that the BG2 monk *isn't* based on 3e or 3.5, I'm just saying it's not necessarily obvious. It could be an amalgamation of several sources, as I said.

S&F currently doesn't provide the wisdom bonus to AC, although we were going to investigate ways to implement it for future versions.

Well if GeN1e's tweak works without bugs, Sword & Fist might be the best place for it. Being as how S&F's stated goal is to bring the BG2 monk closer to the 3e/3.5 monk.

Just one more observation without going too far off topic - Salk observes S&F actually nerfs the monk to some extent. Which might be ok for BG2 and in line with the mod's goals, but it'd be detrimental to the low-level monk in Tutu, who, as many others have observed, is a complete wuss. The Lost Items mod I mentioned attempts to remedy this a bit - I don't know how successful it is (as yet I haven't played a monk in Tutu, possibly because of the fact they suck).

[NiGHTMARE]

So I think that covers all those things you mentioned about the BG2 monk class. Now I'm not saying it's *exactly* how the monk operates in BG2, or that the BG2 monk *isn't* based on 3e or 3.5, I'm just saying it's not necessarily obvious. It could be an amalgamation of several sources, as I said.

Heh, I don't recall ever seeing that 1E monk before; I guess I assumed it was similar to the 2E monk. The features I listed are certainly not the only features of the BG2 monk, of course. Many of them are things the 1E class doesn't but which the 3E class does; these include the AC vs. missile bonus, the unarmed combat bonuses, unarmed attacks being considered as magical weapons, the saving throw bonuses, the movement speed bonuses, the magic/spell resistance, and the immunity to non-magical weapons.

Just one more observation without going too far off topic - Salk observes S&F actually nerfs the monk to some extent. Which might be ok for BG2 and in line with the mod's goals, but it'd be detrimental to the low-level monk in Tutu, who, as many others have observed, is a complete wuss. The Lost Items mod I mentioned attempts to remedy this a bit - I don't know how successful it is (as yet I haven't played a monk in Tutu, possibly because of the fact they suck).

That's quite ironic, since one of my reasons for creating the monk remix was that several people had complained the monk was too powerful in Tutu .

I wouldn't say the changes within the BG1 level cap (level 8 for monks) are all that drastic. S&F monks gain their +2 unarmed damage bonus at 4th and 8th levels instead of 3rd and 6th; their save vs. spells bonus and initial movement speed bonus are both held back a couple of levels (1st -> 3rd), but the movement speed progression is faster so that at level 6 there's no difference; the speed factor bonus at 8th level is gone; there's a +1 AC bonus only at 5th level, rather than 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th; and immunity to slow and haste at 5th level is gone.

S&F also gain some benefits over their unmodded counterparts: an additional +1 to all saving throws at 2nd level; the flurry of blows ability, which is usable at-will; and they can use stunning fist once per day per level, rather than once per day per four levels.

[Azazello]

I'm running a 2E-rules-style, Oversight-enhanced Monk in a side non-MegaInstall game. As I wrote before, he hit like a girl all the way up to Level 10. Still, I got him now up to Level +25 now so that's not an issue anymore.

I will be trying the S&F version of Monk, using Refinement HLA, in a MegaInstall, some day. Gimme about a year and I'll come back and report the results of low-level and high-level character.

[Miloch]

The features I listed are certainly not the only features of the BG2 monk, of course. Many of them are things the 1E class doesn't but which the 3E class does; these include the AC vs. missile bonus, the unarmed combat bonuses, unarmed attacks being considered as magical weapons, the saving throw bonuses, the movement speed bonuses, the magic/spell resistance, and the immunity to non-magical weapons.

Heh, well I guess I have to quote more from 1st edition:

All monks have the martial arts special maneuver Missile Deflection in addition to the other special maneuvers they may have or gain.

Owing to his physical training, a monk can run faster than other chracters, beginning with a base movement of 15".

At 1st-level monks have the ki power to reduce the amount of damage caused by magical attacks. When making saving throws vs. magical attacks, the monk's ki allows him to take no damage or suffer no effect from the magic if he makes a successful saving throw.

[T]he monk's training allows him to increase his number of [martial arts] attacks per round and damage per attack as he increases in level.

From 9th-level on, the monk suffers only half-damage from any magical attack that causes damage, even if the monk fails his saving throw. (He must use his power, however.)

So again, that covers almost everything you mentioned. It doesn't say anything specific about unarmed attacks being considered magical weapons or immunity to non-magical weapons, but there's a whole section on Martial Arts. Those could be considered "special maneuvers" the monks can choose (e.g. Iron Fist and Ironskin).

There's quite a bit more than what I'm quoting. 1st edition monks had quite a few restrictions on owning property (particularly magic items) to balance these abilities that might be considered overpowered otherwise.

That's quite ironic, since one of my reasons for creating the monk remix was that several people had complained the monk was too powerful in Tutu .

Hunh. I'm wondering how that'd be the case, unless they were playing a high-level character with XP caps removed - in which case a character of any class is going to be overpowered.

immunity to slow and haste at 5th level is gone.

At 5th level the monk is immune to all types of disease and is unaffected by all types of haste or slow spells.

Interesting. So the BG2 monk has at least one feature of 1e that isn't in 3e .

[Miloch]

BTW, yesterday I've found some info about kensais - that thier AC should be (23-DEX + 1/3 level). But haven't found any confirmation of this.

This may also have arisen in 1st edition:

[A] kensai begins with a natural armor class between 9 and 5. To find his armor class, subtract the character's Dexterity score from 23. The result is the character's natural armor class. For example, a kensai with Dexterity 16 has a natural armor class of 7. Thereafter, his natural armor class improves by one step for every three levels he attains (one step at 3d, another at 6th, etc.).

(This dusty old volume hasn't seen this much action in years ).

Barbarians were much cooler in 1st edition too, as of their advent in the original Unearthed Arcana. How people moaned about 2nd edition butchering the class.

[Aramyr]

I think the monk tweak is noncompatible with the Sword and Fist. I never got the Ac bonus from my Wis 18.Maybe I messed up my megamod(?).

[Gawith]

This tweak looks cool for me

Will it work if install it now, when my game is already started? I will not start new game, no way And, is it compatible witch S&F and Oversight/Reinferments?

[Aramyr]

Not working with Sword and Fist mod.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Well, I know that the Monk Tweak modifies baldur.ini and baldur25.ini files

As a matther of fact that file is called baldur.bcs and baldur25.bcs, not .ini ...
Also you might wish to save and load the game and see if that help the situation in BG1-BG2:SoA portion of the game... or let the game wait for a while, as the primary game script in use will need to be completed without always something other distracting it. Uuh, the mod uses:

IF
Global("ag_monk1_wis2","GLOBAL",0)
OR(2)
CheckStatLT(Player1,4,WIS)
CheckStatLT(Player1,5,WIS)
Class(Player1,MONK)
THEN
RESPONSE #100 ...

Check for the stat, while the larger would be enough... or is it a typo?

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 26 November 2009 - 01:13 PM.

[Tassadar88]

IF
Global("ag_monk1_wis2","GLOBAL",0)
OR(2)
CheckStatLT(Player1,4,WIS)
CheckStatLT(Player1,5,WIS)
Class(Player1,MONK)
THEN
RESPONSE #100 ...

Check for the stat, while the larger would be enough... or is it a typo?

Seems to me to be typo - CheckStatGT(Player1,5,WIS) so that it should always return true or did I not get it correctly?

[Miloch]

Seems to me to be typo

Probably, but I'm wondering why even put this in the global scripts (baldur.bcs etc.) to begin with. Ascension64 coded the monk tweak in Lost Items so that it just applies a spell on initial creation, and it seems to work AFAIK.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Seems to me to be typo

Probably, but I'm wondering why even put this in the global scripts (baldur.bcs etc.) to begin with. Ascension64 coded the monk tweak in Lost Items so that it just applies a spell on initial creation, and it seems to work AFAIK.

Well, if there is already a spell for it, shouldn't it be applied when the character archives the first level... by the clabmo01.2da file? Just patch that file with AP_*, where the * is the spells 7 letter *.spl file, and you are done. No extra scripting needed.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 01 December 2009 - 03:09 AM.

[GeN1e]

It is clear that I completely forgot about this minimod of mine. Even missed the Dec 2009 posts, although I was around that time.

One thing I can tell for certain - this mod is coded in a very suboptimal way, so it probably is expected to behave weirdly. It should be doable to remove the unnecessary script routine overload, but I can't say when exactly I'll get to redo it. I have several other personal tweaks-minimods written, all too small or subjective to release publically. A small tweakpack, perhaps, is ahead.

[Reverendratbastard]

well, i for one still hope that this achieves stability - in the meantime i suppose i can make do with the simplified LI tweak.

and now, i apologize for this turning into a bit of a nostalgia-wank:

i find myself personally invested in the flurry of comments relating to the 1e monk. this was the favorite class that i never truly played, though i read about, rolled and contemplated them incessantly for several years. monk was the second class that i played in tabletop 3e, and the first that i tried in SoA.
the least translatable thing about the 1e rendition, i think, would be that their maximum level* was 17 ('Grand Master of Flowers'). they also began hideously wimpy (2d4 hit points [at the other end of the 1st-level spectrum, Rangers had 2d8 for some reason], AC of 10 with no Dex bonus allowed (and no Wis bonus given back then, just to be clear) and 1 open hand attack per round for 1-3 dmg, iirc) but could be pretty scary if they actually made it to the top (18d4 hp, base AC -3 [presumably with the added benefit of a Whatever of Protection], 4 attacks per round at 8-32 dmg each).
but yeah, they were identical to the OA monk as Miloch described, apart from OA's added martial arts rules (a major breakthrough at the time) and cultural weapon selection. (core 1e had a pile of obscure weapons that they probably wouldn't've bothered with if there hadn't been a monk class, and all of those were essentially worthless to either fighter types or monks of higher than ~4th level - although in a bizarre easter egg of silly game-math, monks did get +1/2 hp per level to all melee weapon damage rolls... not +1 every two levels - +1/2 per level!?)

anyway, this article from Dragon magazine - http://www.bobsenk.c...ss/newmonk.html - made it into one of the 5 'best of dragon' collections, i.e. was very well received, not considered excessive, and as close to 'canon' as you could get with ~house rules~ - at least until Unearthed Arcana added Cavaliers (Paladins became a subclass of these instead, and were extra-cheese-uber as a result) and Barbarians (who in BG terms were Barbarian + Wizard Slayer, required six thousand XP to get to level 2, and could gain experience by destroying magic items) (both originally Dragon articles themselves) - and the only reason the linked monk-fix wasn't incorporated (sorry, i can no longer cite this, having divested myself of most of my PnP paraphernalia) was fear of general uproar from players 'forced' to 'downgrade' their highest-level monks (and grind out four more levels! the horror! well, to be fair, it could indeed be a horrific prospect, depending on the DM...)

overall (and despite the time-disconnects, since there was no 3e when BG1 made its debut) i personally prefer favoring 3e in BG (it's my favorite part of IWD2 character-building), while leaning towards 2e for clerics (specialty priests and non-weapon proficiencies were the only changes i welcomed at the time - core 2e didn't have monks! or assassins! or demons! or devils! or psionics!! and you didn't get thousands of XP just for acquiring a magic item anymore! (or even for destroying them, since barbarians were gone too))...

but if i wanted to bring only one thing back from 1e, it would be the original Ranger perk that 2e nerf-ized into the singular species-enemy thing...


*there were all kinds of ill-conceived level limits. Druids maxed out at 14 (until UA, and then it was 23 - but what they got from 15-23 were [along with monks' perks] the conceptual predecessor to HLAs and high-end Feats), Assassins at 15 (but if they surprised anything level 16 or higher they had a 50% chance of instantly killing them)... all non-pure-human races were doomed to a max.level no higher than ~12 in every class other than Thief... exceptions being half-elf druids and half-orc assassins - but then half-orcs had the only Thieves with a level cap... poor buggers got the only cleric/assassins, but their cleric max was 4! wow, i'm glad that's over. )