13 replies to this topic

[Arathlan]

Heyo, I'm currently still running 3.0, and I don't want to upgrade else I'll have to redo from start, but I did want to keep a running log of my thoughts on the writing characterisation and any bugs that crop up because if I don't I'll forget them.

*FLIRTS*
Hugging Nathaniel - there's the response where he pushes you away stating that he doesn't need comforting all the time. While true I suppose, there are some points where I feel like my character should protest that the hug isn't for Nathaniel's comfort - especially in rougher patches - like after spellhold.

You know, responses like:

1. Who said I was comforting you? This is for me.
2. But...I like holding you.
3. Sorry - I just thought you might like a hug.

*INTERACTION WITH JAHEIRA
The part where he realises she's gunning for you too? Awesome. That was fricking awsome. Loved it.

*THE FIRST TIME*
Is it possible to place a check for where you are when this happens? The last two times this happened I was in an Inn and in my stronghold (Fighter's Castle) respectively. And it was very strange that I was using a bedroll, and given in the latter especially that my PC was in his own room, Nathaniel being shy about location didn't seem to make half as much sense as it otherwise would.

Okay, that's it from me for now. I'm trying to give constructive feedback here, so I hope that's working. I'll post more as it comes to me.

[Arathlan]

Well, a different mod screwed up my game so it's redo from start with 3.1

And a few more things jumped out at me

*NIGHTMARE SEQUENCE
This is really minor, but is it possible for Nathanial's talk about the PC's nightmares not start until at least two or three sleeps in? Right now they're set to trigger after the nightmares run, but if a PC goes and does something else first (in my case Windspear Hills) before picking up Nathanial, and the dreams run their course, his dialogue happens immediately after he joins - which was a little disconcerting. Probably a very minor issue because most people will make a beeline for the docks, but thought I'd mention it.

THE BEGINNING
Now I know that Nathanial 'coming out' to the PC was taken out of the mod - and I agree wholeheartedly there, but I think it does need to be replaced by a few other talking sequences. There's opportunity there for a real character driven conversation. Regardless of how homosexuality is perceived on Faerun, there are a few issues that both the PC and Nathanial would have:

On Nathanial's side:
1) I like him, but then there's Latimer, who I'm still looking for
2) I like him, but he may not be interested in men, let alone me.

On the PC's side:
1) I like him, but I'm not 100% sure he's gay. I think he is, but I'm not sure
2) Even if he IS gay, he may not be interested in me
3) Even if he IS gay and interested in me - he's still in love with Latimer. Do I even have a chance?

And these issues have kind of been skipped over.

I think it would be nice to have a conversation early on - after the talk with Chief Inspector Brega where Nathanial learns that Latimer escaped custody, and after the talk about Bhaal (or one before Bhaal if after Brega and one after, I'm not sure exactly how the lovetalks are structured). It should be set up to allow the flagging of interest on both sides, and the possibility of more than interest happening.

For instance, Nathanial being moody after the talk with Brega, something along the lines of

"I never thought he'd do this. It's like...he's really gone."

1) I'm sure Latimer's note gone, we can still find him (keep conversation going)
2) He's a criminal - and if we find him we'll have to turn him in (not so nice option)
3) He was caught and escaped custody - it doesn't mean they had a good reason to hold him. I escaped custody and I turned out to be right (be nice, give him hope)
4) Yes, yes, he's gone, will you stop whining about him already? (shut him up and probably kill the lovetalks?)

etc. And eventually:

"I meant he's gone from me. I've really lost him. Whether we find him or not - I've...lost him."

1) Oh, it's not that bad surely. I mean, if he's alive and we find him we can send him back to the guard and it'll all be fine (be incredibly dense)
2) What do you mean you've really lost...oh... (pick up the hint)
3) Yes. It happens. Look, can we move on now? (shut down)

Assuming option 2 gets chosen, there's a Nathaniel like reaction of waiting. Probably silence plus action of some sort, fiddling with his shirt or something. Then you'd have

1) Well - it's not my cup of tea but I'd say it's his loss (friendship track)
2) Latimer's a moron then, if he's letting you get away (romance track - or friendship track for females I suppose)
3) I think you'd better leave (boot him out - homophobic option)
4) Well - keep your pants to yourself and it won't be an issue (cold rebuff)

etc.

What that does is it allows for a blossoming romantic relationship between the PC and Nathaniel - either that one could potentially BE happening, making flirts seem appropriate, or a reword making option 2 personal (as in "If it were me, I wouldn't be letting go of you so easily") would make it a more explicit courtship, if Nathanial responds positively - I'm thinking here it would be a case of the PC not being non-good or a thief. It also means that there's a high point in the story for Nathaniel to crash down from when he hears Latimer is dead - because then it really does look like his new budding romance distracted him from the search, instead of it being a lot of flirting without an actual relationship.

I'll post again if I feel differently when I hit it - but when I hit that event at Trademeet and Nathanial blamed my PC for Latimer's death, I felt a little 'but we weren't explicitly in a relationship, so you blaming me is a BIT rich'. However, if it can be seen that Nathanial makes a conscious choice because of the PC's interest in him - the choice being to curtail or postphone the search for Latimer - then there's real tension and drama there - because then it's not all projection - in all likelihood the PC will probably have nudged him away from Latimer (the incident with the ring comes to mind, although that's later), and thus there's some guilt there to be shared.

Okay. That's it for me for now. Sorry - I may be looking at this a bit like a theatre script with highs and lows and dramatic moments in the story. I'm finishing a script at the moment

Oh yeah - Anomen could have an interjection of stony silence and disapproval when the penny drops for the PC if he's around. Could be characterful.

Still love the mod! Can't wait for the TOB part to come out!

(No pun intended)

[Suspiria]

THE BEGINNING
Now I know that Nathanial 'coming out' to the PC was taken out of the mod - and I agree wholeheartedly there

Do you happen to know where this was discussed? I noticed that, but I was thinking that maybe I did something wrong, I happened to like that aspect of the mod. Now I am torn between reinstalling my older copy of this mod or leaving this one installed for the sake of the Kelsey content, which I haven't played with yet.

[Arathlan]

Um - way back when this was still on Chosen of Mystra I understand.

BTW - I forgot that Nathaniel does later let go of Latimer. Fine fine

I'll see how things go before saying more.

BTW - banters with Aerie are wonderful - although I was hoping for a bit more about the circus banter. He said he'd think about it - I'd like to hear the rest of that.

Also - the interjection when Yoshimo steals the nobleman's ring in the Government District? Gold. That was gold. I laughed so hard...

[Arathlan]

Okay, got to Avery and specifically tried out the flirts beforehand. And that point still seems a little...weak in terms of dramatic tension.

Since the PC and Nathaniel have yet to really solidify a romantic relationship, Latimer's 'death' feels like more of a romance killer than anything else. And when I say 'killer' I mean it feels like it kills the potential for it. After Nathaniel got around to apologising and asking if my PC could ever forgive him, I really wanted a politely terse response. Kind of a 'Yes, it's fine.' moment - the sort where it's obvious that it's not fine. I'm not quite sure where that would spin the romance - make it more strained perhaps.

I still think an indication of interest on both sides would be nice to have after the Bhaal conversation. But I suppose that also depends on other things. It would need to be before the vampire conversation and might end up being tripped in a different fashion if Nathaniel talks to the woman and child in the temple district first (which is amazingly cool), although I'm not sure how likely that is.

I'll play further and see how far I can strain the Latimer thing before saying more, but it would be nice to structure it so that the first major climax - Latimer's 'death' played out with a bit more depth.

[Miss Sakaki]

Hey Arathlan,
Thank you very much for the detailed feedback, we really appreciate it! We'll definitely bear all of it in mind when doing the next mini-version - which shouldn't be too far away now that there's less RL stuff to deal with.

[Miss Sakaki]

The following contains spoilers, not for the mod but for Nathaniel's personality, if such a thing counts as a spoiler:



It's not just you, though the yaoi-fan-ness probably helps with noticing that kind of thing! Physically and emotionally (gotta love those anger issues! And yet he's also lawfully aligned, which makes everything forgivable...) Anomen is completely Nathaniel's type. If Anomen were interested, Nathaniel would go for him like a shot - but since he's not, he wouldn't dream of suggesting anything more than friendliness.

[KedorLao]

I have a quick question. I remember reading somewhere that you had a 'coming out' section but that it was cut from later versions. I was just curious why you did that, as I feel it's just a little odd that everyone just seems to 'know' without anything ever being said. It could also be interesting to have some of the other NPC's react to it too.

[Mimi Sardinia]

If Anomen were interested, Nathaniel would go for him like a shot - but since he's not, he wouldn't dream of suggesting anything more than friendliness.

So is that an indicator that you don't consider him interested? Because I'd love it if something like this was implemented - possibly as an NPC romance in ToB if neither Nathaniel or Anomen are romanced by the PC.

It's probably just wishful thinking on my part however, side effect maybe of being impatient for the ToB part to be released.

[Miss Sakaki]

I have a quick question. I remember reading somewhere that you had a 'coming out' section but that it was cut from later versions. I was just curious why you did that, as I feel it's just a little odd that everyone just seems to 'know' without anything ever being said.

It was mostly my decision and was based on the fact that I didn't want Nathaniel's sexuality to be a big deal - he doesn't have issues about it and certainly doesn't need approval about it from the PC. But it seems that lots of people missed it when it was got rid of, so it'll probably be back in a later version - I can't promise about the next one, but possibly it'll be in the one after that.

So is that an indicator that you don't consider him interested?

Yeah, we don't want to mess with game canon in the mod, I'm afraid, and for me changing (or reassessing) Anomen's sexuality comes under that.

[KedorLao]

I can understand not wanting to make a big deal out of it. I was just surprise that even in his introduction he didn't mention that Latimer was his lover. Seemed odd that the information was just assumed by the party and PC.

[Mimi Sardinia]

So is that an indicator that you don't consider him interested?

Yeah, we don't want to mess with game canon in the mod, I'm afraid, and for me changing (or reassessing) Anomen's sexuality comes under that.

I guess that's where our viewpoints differ, I tend to default to the idea that every character is bi unless otherwise stated. Even a possible canon het romance (such as the one with the PC possible with Ano) doesn't change that mindset for me, side effect of my slash reading.

Edited by Mimi Sardinia, 08 November 2007 - 10:35 PM.