33 replies to this topic

[AnnabelleRose]

I am enjoying this discussion in truth.

Allow me to be more clear about what I am doing. Michael Helling (Webpage) made some rather nice invetory PLTs and a couple of neat items (yes one of them is a bit overpowered, so what?) for BG2.

The items are buggy and need work. I would not change anything about them, other then fixing them so they would work, and in the case of the hat, add it to a container or store so it would not have to be CLUA'ed into the game. Credit would be given both in the .tp install file, and in the readme.

.tp2 Example

BEGIN ~New Inventory PLT's for Male Elven Bard & Female Human Thieves by Michael Helling~
COPY ~MTS1/PLT~ ~override~

From the readme:

15. New Inventory PLT's for Male Elven Bard & Female Human Thieves by Michael Helling

	  Another gem by Mr Helling. I thought these looked excellent and I wanted to hopefully give other people a chance to see these. You can view them before instilation in the Paperdoll Screenshots folder. Sadly, there is no readme for this addition.

	  Michael Helling's website - http://www.helling.com

If you are wondering about the refrence to the readme, any of my components that had their own readme are stored in a folder titled "Original Readmes" in the mod folder.

Now, I won't be releasing this untill more time, and attempts at contact has been made. He does have the 'disclaimer' on his mods with readme files, but this is also on his readme:

Since I don´t know how to make a WeiDU- file for installing the item into the
game, you have to do it yorself or unzip the item- files into your override folder
(see installation section). Doing this will make the item appear without any description
or wrong description. Sorry for this, but as soon as I have learned to make a
WeiDU- file I will upload it to my site for dowload!

I offered to make him a weidu installer for it, or to add it to my ToC mod, giving him the choice.

It is not my aim to change his products (allthough I was thinking of making the two PLTs seperate components), but updating them to weidu. That way it would not be a messy "unzip to override" or do that, then CLUA the items in.

Opinions?

[berelinde]

@Sim DingO:

If you are suggesting that the host admin would act as a custodian to protect the integrity and quality of your work in your absence (for whatever reason), I would say that sounds like a good idea, and would be in favor of that myself. If nothing else, the natural reluctance of the individual to *be* a guardian would ensure that nothing unpleasant happened to it.

[Azazello]

MTS, as long as you document what you changed, and that YOU changed it - i.e., make it clear that it is you, not that original developer, who has made changes - then I believe that you are covered.

aVenger's example is perfect. He fully understood that others wanted to update/correct his work, not even change the content. But he was adamant that the mod, as a whole, could not be updated. He did not even give a reason for this position, and as the original creator it is his right not to. He did then provide some leeway in what could be done on the mod.

I completely disagree with his stance. Why not allow just corrections to the work? Still, I fully respect his decision, and would be the most vocal critic if I saw someone promoting an updated aPack withour avenger's permission.

I think there is one thing all modders could do to cover themselves on this issue: put in your readme/webpage your stance on changes to your works. You can be draconian, free-spirited, or nonchalance about how/what can be done to your mods; just be clear.

[Malbolgia]

I know not what worth or weight might be placed in the words I write here, but seeing as this thread was made by the OP, shortly after a discussion on the topic of the appropriateness of a mod I made some changes to (without the modders blessings), my ego spoke out to me and encouraged me to respond. As always, I bow to my ego and my desires.

As I see it, you might end up giving someone you like the right to change your work, only to later find that you did not find the changes to be to your satisfaction - even after you both discussed any future development thoroughly. You never know with these things, you can never truly ensure that your work will not be raped, molested and beat into the unrecognizable.

Personally, in the readme, I'd expressly require any bug fixes (which I, of course, would welcome) to be patches which the user would have to download separately, perhaps later to be integrated into any future releases, at my choosing. Credit should of course always be given where credit is due.
However, in case of the Planar Sphere Mod and the Return Mod, which I have chosen to tinker with, the mod was taken over by another modder a long time ago, only to pass hands once again at a later point. What obligations does one have to the creator and later developers, who've all given up on the project? I feel none. Especially so with this mod, but, I'd really have no qualms about taking on any of the other mods in the Mod Resurrections forum without the explicit permission of whoever - except for the original creator, of course.

With the planar sphere mod, a clear distinction is set between the original mod and the changes that I've myself made, both on the page where you may download the mod and in the readme-file, where I haven't even taken credit anywhere other than in the entries of the changelog that I'm myself responsible for.
The user is free to choose, and the community can test and give feedback, so that anyone interested may learn if the changes merits closer examination and further development. If not, surely the cries of outrage should be enough to hinder any further disgrace to any mod.
Given that take-overs are always done in a similar manner and under similar circumstances (i.e. the mod isn't taken from a private page, to later be posted on another private page), there really shouldn't be a problem with taking over abandoned projects. I feel 'community' is the key-word here.
And, truly, I apologize for not taking the time to integrate myself into this community before taking on this project.

Best regards,
Thomas

Edited by Malbolgia, 19 February 2007 - 02:11 PM.

[Cuv]

I would tend to agree with Sim here, I like the custodial idea. I haven't dropped off the edge of the world, nor have I given up on my various projects... just taking a looooooong break. I wouldn't cry if someone decided to finish 'you-know-what' provided they at least try to contact me, Quitch or Xyx first. That said, I would 'hope' it was someone capable. Still around though, and at least thinking of the monster again.

Good discussion here, been away for quite a while

Cuv

[Narm]

Not that I'm a modder, but I have disappear for 2-3 years before I came back to the community.

Anyway, if the changes is mainly for private use, I think it's acceptable since it doesn't affects anyone other than you. I admitted change some of the files in the past. Actually, I just group all the minor tweak into a single Weidu so that I dont have to click mulitple i for those tweak.

However, if you planned to release a mod that have any modification from your parts, at least common sense tell us that if permission is not seek, it's considered rude. One arguement goes this way, since we already modify the official files, what make others modification theirs when it's not their materials in the 1st place.

What I can said is, the time, effort, idea and sweat are theirs. Example the mod created by said Horred BP is a concept and idea so much different than others. Other grab his version and release a remix, that would be totally off. However, if you released a certain patch of tweak file for that mod without taking credit, with the author permission, I believed it's reasonable.

[Radish]

The big concern seems to be over replacement rather than just modification.

But wait, what the hell does that mean?

@Sim DingO:

If you are suggesting that the host admin would act as a custodian to protect the integrity and quality of your work in your absence (for whatever reason), I would say that sounds like a good idea, and would be in favor of that myself. If nothing else, the natural reluctance of the individual to *be* a guardian would ensure that nothing unpleasant happened to it.

This is what I refer to. The host admin determines who has control of the mod's official info page, official download location, official forum; basically, everything that makes someone's contributions to a mod official. If someone else gets control of all that, then their work now appears to replace any versions that came before. That is the sort of thing we need to be careful about, and strive to obtain permission if at all possible before passing the status of "official" handler of a mod to someone else (or taking up the reigns ourselves).

However, if someone wants to make and release a patch to Gavin to randomly make him part barbarian and remove his ability to rationally discern appropriate romantic partners, that's perfectly acceptable. Assuming all host admins can stay on the ball and consistently practice basic common sense, this person will have to host and support (creating a forum, etc.) their patch themselves, and thus the original author can be secure in the knowledge that no one will be subjected to such travesty unless they deliberately choose to be. However, this all holds true even in the case of rogue patches/upgrades that are actually good - the author (or current author) always has say over what goes in/becomes the official version, even if the decision is arguably to the detriment of the mod.

An author does not have say over whether people can distribute changes or derivative content clearly labeled as unofficial, however. Oh, the law may (may) allow them such ridiculous control, but few are obsessive enough to actually pursue legal action over something so trivial. More importantly, the law only determines legal and illegal, not right and wrong, and as far as I'm concerned it's perfectly moral to enthusiastically ignore an author's wishes on this matter. Because I think wishing that nobody make derivative content of your work is not only unrealistic but selfish; an immoral wish that should be violated.

The rights I believe an author does have: The right to receive credit for their work, the exclusive right to profit from their work unless they grant permission to someone else (for purely practical reasons, and only with completely original work - so obviously this doesn't apply to mods), the right to restrict distribution of their work (otherwise the profit bit becomes hard), the right to be notified of derivative work if it is reasonably easy to do so (obviously it's not easy to notify George Lucas of your Star Wars fanfiction, but notifying jcompton that your NPC mod includes banters with Kelsey is), the right to have their opinion heard about any particular derivative work (if jcompton hates the banters you wrote for Kelsey tell people this up-front before they download anything), and the right to be treated with courtesy and respect just by virtue of being human (which means among other things that you would make a real effort to listen to jcompton's concerns and if they are legitimate, change/remove the controversial Kelsey content accordingly). Adapting my parenthetical examples to other types of "rogue" mod content should be easy enough.

Now, though I basically think anyone is allowed to modify anything in any way they want and make it available for anyone else to download, there should still be some restriction, for the sake of tidiness if nothing else. Mostly just one restriction, though, actually. Don't distribute a repackaged version of a mod with your content added to it unless you are the "official" developer of that mod making a new official version of it. Otherwise, post a link to the official version, and then provide your own content as a patch to it or a separate installation (prominently dated alongside the version number of the official mod it was made to modify). I figure that makes it clearer to lay users exactly what it is they're downloading, and as I said just keeps things much tidier for the community as a whole.

Edited by Radish, 29 April 2007 - 02:29 AM.

[Miloch]

However, if someone wants to make and release a patch to Gavin to randomly make him part barbarian and remove his ability to rationally discern appropriate romantic partners, that's perfectly acceptable.

Hmm. Nah, I've got too many other projects going on. Besides, it wouldn't really match his alternate portrait.

I would add that even replacement is ok in the case of "dead" mods; particularly where you've made repeated attempts to contact the author(s) and received no response. That seemed to be MTS's situation (and one I'm in also). Courtesy would suggest retaining the original mod's content as at least an option, though there may be cases where that's not required or even practical.

[Kulyok]

I would add that even replacement is ok in the case of "dead" mods; particularly where you've made repeated attempts to contact the author(s) and received no response. That seemed to be MTS's situation (and one I'm in also). Courtesy would suggest retaining the original mod's content as at least an option, though there may be cases where that's not required or even practical.

Um, imagine a piano falls on my head tomorrow. Is that a reason to wait a year(or two), kick the gravestone a few times, shrug, say "No response", and re-release Branwen Romance where she dances chunga-changa with Skie in the nude, and replace the original version entirely?

Edited by Kulyok, 29 April 2007 - 04:59 AM.

[Miloch]

re-release Branwen Romance where she dances chunga-changa with Skie in the nude, and replace the original version entirely?

Hmm. I'll start on that as soon as I'm done with "Gavin the Barbarian." Maybe even before .

Though while we're on about it, did you attempt to contact the original author(s) of the Branwen character before writing a romance for her? And actually receive permission for the same? If so, I'm impressed .

[Kulyok]

I wrote to Gaider when I was writing Anomen's wake-up talk based on his story, and got a permission. (I still don't know which mod is going to include it - I know Flirt Pack has its own version).

When I was doing Xan, I wrote to Interplay, but, predictably enough, got no answer. I got to Bennett, too, got no answer. Had a lengthy round with Bennett's agent, but it came to copyright, so.

Now I am planning to code a small quest based on a certain... story I very much like, so I just came up to the author and straight out offered him my coding services. I think you'll like it if/when it is done.

[the bigg]

Though while we're on about it, did you attempt to contact the original author(s) of the Branwen character before writing a romance for her? And actually receive permission for the same? If so, I'm impressed .

I'm pretty sure the authors of two 'Lesbian Imoen' and the 'Lesbian Nalia' did that, too (not counting the various Circle and Square mods).

[GeN1e]

kick the gravestone a few times, shrug, say "No response"

+1

I think if someone wants to add content/fix bugs/make whatever else to another person's mod and that person has already disappeared long time ago then it's normal to release new version containing original content plus new component from rereleaser. It's not hard for a modder to make a separate component. As for non-modders, well, why would they bother if they don't know anyway how to mod?
And I find situation when you want to make changes and author of the original has disappeared only yesterday to be unlikely one. If author is still around then you'd probably await/ask him/her to make changes.