262 replies to this topic

[Drew]

You should have named your "tools in question", otherwise it is ambigious. IDU and IDW?

Have SimDing0 or JCompton even once complained about the other tools TeamBG is hosting in this thread? The only tools whose availability anyone has been complaining about have been IDU and IDW. Come on, dude. A hyperactive 5 year old would know that the "tools in question" are IDU and IDW after just lightly skimming the last 7 pages of this crap. It's called context.

Edited by Drew, 21 June 2006 - 04:08 PM.

[Azkyroth]

All right, I have the following suggestions:

Igi: Put the "legacy" tools on a separate page, with large red text at the top clearly identifying them as non-supported and explicitly discouraged (as opposed to merely "not recommended") for general or beginning modding use. Have large red text next to the download links for those with known serious issues (like IDU and IDW) identifying them as such, and smaller red text below that identifying the specific issues, in a straightforward, objective, and non-sarcastic fashion.

Grunker, MorningGlory, others: Please stop reminding me of certain ill-advised arguments on my part which confused matters of principle and practice in the opposite way that people usually do, and hence blew up in my face (see below). Recognize that discouraging sites from actively aiding new or inexperienced modders in acquiring certain tools is not equivalent to supporting a "ban" on those tools. Recognize also that in the event that Jcompton, Sim, and others start going around kicking down modders' doors and forcibly removing these tools from their hard disks that I will join you in opposing such a genuine ban.

JCompton, TheBigg, SimDing0: Despite some notably hilarious and memorable comments and a number of legitimate concerns (or, perhaps, because of them), this is one of the occasions on which you remind me of a younger me, mage, after my frustration-and-bile-inspired carpet-bombing had completely swamped my legitimate complaints about the night-and-supernova contrast between the nominal ideals of the JEC online community (as implied by the dictionary definitions of the terms "Justice," "Excellence," and "Courage") with the actual behavior of the JEC administrative staff, but before I washed my hands of it. You might want to work on that.

What I'd like to see is some better support for DLTCEP. Of course, it's a good sign when the nastiest thing you can find to say about a tool is that its stonewall failure to support window resizing makes you want to smack the author every once in a while...

[EDIT] One more suggestion/request:

Jolyth: Tell me who is responsible for the street layout in the French Quarter of this miserable city, so that I can strap him to the hood of the company truck (exhuming him first if necessary) and hopefully impress some meaningful concept of vehicular traffic into his miserable carcass as I drive back to Sacramento in a day or two. Seriously; for all the city's charm, in addition to the "air soup" climate it has the same traffic problems as San Francisco along with half the fucking intersections being un[clearly]labeled, the streets are smaller, and the people are vastly less attentive.

Edited by Azkyroth, 21 June 2006 - 07:08 PM.

[the bigg]

You should have named your "tools in question", otherwise it is ambigious. IDU and IDW?

Have SimDing0 or JCompton even once complained about the other tools TeamBG is hosting in this thread? The only tools whose availability anyone has been complaining about have been IDU and IDW. Come on, dude. A hyperactive 5 year old would know that the "tools in question" are IDU and IDW after just lightly skimming the last 7 pages of this crap. It's called context.

Let's not forget about ISE. It'd be cool with me, if it weren't for the fact that it doesn't read the in-game IDS, but rather work on the CLEAN SOA ones (this means no fucking *SpellRES actions/triggers, just for a prime example).

Probably I'd also have complaints about other tools, but I never touched them, so...

[Jolyth]

[EDIT] One more suggestion/request:

Jolyth: Tell me who is responsible for the street layout in the French Quarter of this miserable city, so that I can strap him to the hood of the company truck (exhuming him first if necessary) and hopefully impress some meaningful concept of vehicular traffic into his miserable carcass as I drive back to Sacramento in a day or two. Seriously; for all the city's charm, in addition to the "air soup" climate it has the same traffic problems as San Francisco along with half the fucking intersections being un[clearly]labeled, the streets are smaller, and the people are vastly less attentive.

ROFLMAO!!! Welcome to the No Left Turn Capital of the World dear!!! Not to mention the My Car is Bigger Than Yours So Get Out of My Way mentality!

In all honesty tho, we did lose several of our street signs and such. Of course, no one paid any attention to them in the first place, but that is beside the point. I will happily take you on a tour so we can find the person who designed it and lash him repeatedly with any available flailing tool. However, we must consider the fact that subsidence has probably hidden many of the streets and that many of the houses that were once in place are now in the middle of those streets.

[the bigg]

Oh, right, IAP, I forgot about that one

[Andyr]

I'm assuming this second guest is Domi and not Sim?

[Baronius]

You should have named your "tools in question", otherwise it is ambigious. IDU and IDW?

Have SimDing0 or JCompton even once complained about the other tools TeamBG is hosting in this thread? The only tools whose availability anyone has been complaining about have been IDU and IDW. Come on, dude. A hyperactive 5 year old would know that the "tools in question" are IDU and IDW after just lightly skimming the last 7 pages of this crap. It's called context.

Quoting your original post:

Perhaps the tools there are outdated, and the newer ones are better. So what? If people enjoy using them and supporting them, why not let them?

No. The tools in question aren't outdated. They don't work, and they never did work.

"The tools there" -- if the author wanted to refer to IDU or IDW, he would have written "IDU and IDW" or "these tools there", not "the tools there". And even the "tools in question" doesn't have to refer only to IDU and IDW, but to any tools mentioned in the topic. Even at the beginning of the thread, IEEP and IAP were also brought up in the same context. Furthermore, the topic also included discussion about how to separate the Legacy tools from the other ones, generally.
Come on, accepting something (instead of trying to prove its opposite by telling off someone) is not unhealthy. Learning how to communicate without being arrogant, that's one more useful thing.

Edited by Baronius, 22 June 2006 - 07:09 AM.

[Baronius]

Neither Sim nor JC wrote the post (to which JC replied "tools in question"). It is unimportant what the author intended with "the tools there."

The author is MTS, and it is not unimportant what he meant, because he was quoted by Drew, Drew's thoughts were written below the quote. And thus JC's anaphor can both refer to the meaning in JC's previous posts as well as to the text he was quoting. It's logical that the "tools in question" referred to IDU and IDW for those who know that these tools didn't work for many people (you say that for all people, let's not argue over this here now). For others, it was possible to interpret "the tools in question" as the "tools there" i.e. the tools that are hosted at the new TBG as "legacy" tools.
For people too tired to scroll back again or especially for newbies, it's never bad if you clarify your point with a bit more detail, and repeating in grammar has this role as well i.e. keeping it unambigious. Keeping the coherence of the text.
Furthermore, several people including myself are not native speakers of English (and don't have perfect skills), I think it is nice to try to phrase in a way that is more easily understandable by non-English users.

Learning how to communicate is very useful, indeed. I would definitely recommend it.

I agree. Using obscene/rude expressions (as some users did in this thread) and posting in an arrogant/agressive style just reflects how uneducated and primitive the user is. It has no real effect. Civilized people communicate in a civilized way.

Edited by Baronius, 22 June 2006 - 10:08 AM.

[Baronius]

This is sad. I would not like to see anyone arguing over anything. It's much better if modding (or modding-related discussion) is done. Or anything more useful.

[Grunker]

Please stop reminding me of certain ill-advised arguments on my part which confused matters of principle and practice in the opposite way that people usually do, and hence blew up in my face (see below).

Please do not tell me what not to say or do. I manage my own arguments fine, thank you very much. Not meant as a flame, but to clear up: My arguments were my own words, and not based upon any prior arguments you may have spoken

As for the tools: IDU and IDW is probably presented on the site like objects of a museum: When a museum presents the public for stone-hatchets, or gives copies away as souvineirs, I doubt they expect anyone to use them. If you think the glasswall between IDU and the public is to thin, give Igi ideas on how to make the glass thicker, and install a better alarm.

[jester]

IIRC TeamBG should be largely remembered for its unfriendly/unhelpful attitude towards newcomers and the lack of guest posting. Forum policies and tools have evolved in various ways. Not to the complete dismay of many people affected by both.

[Baronius]

You may have a point there, but I think that it doesn't have much to do with the new TBG: I agree with those who say that the new TeamBG founded by Dax and igi should not be identified with the old one, at least not yet. In ideal case, the new TeamBG will keep the good traditions and features of the old one, while won't inherit the negative sides.

[jcompton]

Sorry to break up the intriguing cycle of

- "Do you have a suggestion?"

- "Yes, the ones that have been made 50 times already."

- "But do you have a suggestion?"

for a moment, but...

...does anybody know who owns this site? http://lion.phpwebho...om/~teambg/tdd/

Whoever it is sure paid for it to stay up for a long, long time...

(Incidentally, I'm fairly sure this thread has had the most different people posting as "Guest" in Studios history.)