262 replies to this topic

[NiGHTMARE]

...just say "I know you are but what am I?"Hahahaha.

No, because I'm not an SHS admin and hence not part of your definition of "Comedy Array". In other words, it's actually "I know you are but what are they?".

Oh, and I believe the expression is "pwned".

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 20 June 2006 - 07:38 AM.

[NiGHTMARE]

Unfortunately for you, I was actually simply emulating a fellow member of your own comedy array: http://forums.pocket....html#msg289579

[NiGHTMARE]

I'll mod in a fourth option:

'I've been reliably informed that there are no absolutely differences between anything in existence other than semantics, so apparently I am you and can therefore use whatever you write whenever I want.'

[NiGHTMARE]

Your insistence that the only difference between various things which are clearly rather different is merely a matter of semantics.

EDIT: And lets not forget that you yourself just claimed the only difference between "they" and "I" is semantics, so clearly that would also apply to "you" and "I". So by your own twisted logic, the only thing which differentiates the two of us is semantics.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 20 June 2006 - 09:12 AM.

[igi]

While I don't want to be a spoil-sport, perhaps we could keep on topic?

RE: Contacting tool authors - I believe all the bases have been covered there.

RE: 'Legacy tools' - any suggestions on this? Or do people really prefer to just complain but not suggest anything? A suggestion is an whole lot more useful than a few analagies (whether they be accurate of not) and a monologue or two. So far we have:
1) Leave everything as it is
2) PM system
3) Remove everything (I don't think this has explictly been suggested, but I can imagine a few people would want it.
4) Two-zone tool section (normal/legacy).


RE: The mod-banners - We'll consider revising the size and format of the images. What would you prefer to see? In-game screenshots (perhaps a slightly larger size), or just plain text stating the mod name? Animated gifs?

Perhaps a statement of development goals and announcement of the teams working on specific projects

You may have noticed the relatively high post count (for the members we currently have). Rest assurd there is a lot of discussion going on 'behind the scenes' as to how to stage any releases we have (and we do have a fair few things planned).

[MorningGlory]

I realize that it must feel like charity work for the Defenders of Misfit Toys (many of whom in this discussion don't seem to know a state trigger from a state capital, mind you) to show up and say "IDU has feelings too and you're all such meanies for suppressing it!"

The bigger issue is not whether these are 'Misfit Toys,' or not. That in and of itself seems to have emerged as secondary consideration to the question of whether you, or anyone else, has the right to 'suppress' them, the TBG.eu site, et al. (Maybe Sim should run a poll on ppg about it during his time off from here... )

[Andyr]

How is it even possible that, more than four years after IDU's worthlessness was clearly established, we are having the same arguments?

<snip>

Quoted for truth. Can any modder really stand by and say there's a good reason to have IDU/IDW actively supported?

I support Igi's (I assume it was his from the posts) decision to have these obsolete (because really, that's what they are) tools labelled clearly. I think going a step further than what's currently done and having a separate "Outdated Tools" section would be a good idea, as the word "Legacy" could have unintended positive connotations--some people might even think Legacy was the name of a modding group, or something. If you want to have them available then that's fine, but make sure people really do know what they're getting. I think a lot of n00b modders might see WeiDU and IDU available, download both, then pick IDU because it might initially appear simpler to use. I know that's what I did, and then regretted it. I would have appreciated fewer contradicting statements, and if communities clearly endorsed one set of tools that really did work.

There are a lot of posts here (mostly by non-modders) telling people to shut up and applauding the return of TeamBG. I think most of these people are missing the point (possibly because they are not modders), and that people aren't objecting to TeamBG per se but rather these tools being presented in a light which, while not attractive, is perhaps not as unattractive as it should be.

I'm not sure exactly what TeamBG 2.0 plans to achieve, but I wish them well in it. Just please fix the domain resolving to the IP instead of the name, shove the old tools somewhere else and enable guest posting!

4) Two-zone tool section (normal/legacy).

This, but don't call it "Legacy" -- call it "Outdated", "Obsolete" or something less ambiguous.

[jcompton]

1) Leave everything as it is
2) PM system
3) Remove everything (I don't think this has explictly been suggested, but I can imagine a few people would want it.
4) Two-zone tool section (normal/legacy).

You forgot my repeated suggestion to explicitly tell people in no uncertain terms that they don't work and never did. "Legacy" is a euphemism and not a very accurate one for the situation we're discussing--in common IT parlance "legacy systems" are old things which still work but which are unsupported for some reason or other. IDW definitely doesn't meet that requirement, and IDU so barely squeaks under the wire it's not worth mentioning.

If you're actually interested in helping people make mods, then the most sensible thing to do is to remove the downloads. If you must instead choose to honor TeamBG's majestic legacy of awesomeness instead, the least you could do is be honest and up-front about the stuff that simply does not work.

[jcompton]

The bigger issue is not whether these are 'Misfit Toys,' or not. That in and of itself seems to have emerged as secondary consideration to the question of whether you, or anyone else, has the right to 'suppress' them, the TBG.eu site, et al. (Maybe Sim should run a poll on ppg about it during his time off from here... )

On the contrary, that's the part which is not an issue whatsoever. It is indisputable that IDU is crash-prone (taking dialog.tlk with it) and does not properly manage the very crucial Infinity Engine concept of state trigger ordering. It is indisputable that IDW does not properly save action/trigger texts, making it useless for dialogue creation. There is no debate, no discussion, no let's-all-hold-hands-and-discuss-the-right-of-information-to-be-free hippie love-in which changes these fundamental facts. Anybody who promotes their use is hindering the development of mods. Full stop.

Andyr: "Outdated" and "Obsolete" are no different than "Legacy." All of those terms generously reflect the notion that they once worked. Again: Stone spears are outdated and obsolete compared to machine guns, but rocket-powered chairs never worked, period.

[Jolyth]

Bickering over how people run their sites, which tools they prefer to use, semantics and the proper use of the english language is a bit "obsolete" in my opnion, but voila! Here are 6 pages of it. Always nice to see diversity being so lovingly welcomed into the community!

Congratulations on the site igi.

[MorningGlory]

The bigger issue is not whether these are 'Misfit Toys,' or not. That in and of itself seems to have emerged as secondary consideration to the question of whether you, or anyone else, has the right to 'suppress' them, the TBG.eu site, et al. (Maybe Sim should run a poll on ppg about it during his time off from here... )

I believe your cause would truly be won if you quoted parts of the US constitution which empower people with the rights to release bad modding tools.

(Nobody else here is going to get Attic jokes, are they?)

Really, S&M.... Those of us who frequent the Attic might take it as a compliment, as opposed to the probably derisive way in which you originally meant it.

Edited by MorningGlory, 20 June 2006 - 09:43 AM.

[Baronius]

You forgot my repeated suggestion to explicitly tell people in no uncertain terms that they don't work and never did.

The legacy tools section contains more tools than just IDU/IDW, tools which did and do work.

Edited by Baronius, 20 June 2006 - 09:52 AM.

[grogerson]

igi, please look back a page for my suggestion on the tools. Here's the key portion:

Use a tiered system. Set the "legacy tools" in a separate section. Then set those tools with a proven track record of breaking things accessible by PM only, with clear notice of what they mess up, and that these tools are for the more experienced modders, not for intermediate or (Lord save us) newbies. It should also be recommended that those who use those tools available by PM only have other experienced modders double-check what they've done to catch and squish as many bugs as possible... Being part of a team instead of lone-wolfing it will produce a better mod.

This should help deal with the tools issue I think (I hope).

And good luck on your new site.