262 replies to this topic

[jcompton]

Would you please--as a personal favor to me--start reading the name of the author of the text you're replying to? The question regarding authorship and approval came to you from Nightmare.

[Grunker]

If you put a pit of deadly vipers in the middle of a busy street with a clearly labeled sign that says "This is a pit of vipers. Do not enter this pit unless you have a specific reason," I guess you've done the minimum to ensure compliance with good housekeeping, but really, maybe you shouldn't have put the pit of vipers there in the first place. And if it's all the same to Baronius who has no time for "greenhorns", I'd really rather people keep their vipers out of the street.

First of, I wouldn?t exactly qualify outdated modding-tools as a ?pit of vipers?. It?s true that some part of the blame fall on those who post the tools, but really ? if people are interested in having these old tools, are they to be prohibited from having them?

Vipers are still allowed as pets, and come with a suitable warning.

And you can't hold me responsible for any insult this message delivers, because I have never studied English in university, so I can't be aware of possibly offensive parts in this message.

Why this outrage? You would get further without flaming ? and you know it. So why do it?

Igi is keeping the site up no matter what, if you want him and the others to listen to your concerns, perhaps a more civil tone would get you further?

These are the main concerns I've picked up so far:

1) Abusing the TeamBG-legacy

2) Hosting outdated tools

3) Creating a new community-site based on the supposed 'failure' of others

So,

1) This, I'm not really in any position to speak about, as I was merely a downloader in those days.

2) Igi has already given several ideas on how to solve this issue with a compromise. If you don't like his solution, bring your own ideas to the table, instead of contuing with a pointless moaning, saying the same things with different words.

3) While this may be a bad idea, I would like to have pointed out where exactly Igi makes this assumption. As far as I can tell, TeamBG is supposed to be a new center of creativity, rather than a replacement for other sites.

[the bigg]

And you can't hold me responsible for any insult this message delivers, because I have never studied English in university, so I can't be aware of possibly offensive parts in this message.

Why this outrage? You would get further without flaming ? and you know it. So why do it?

I was merely mocking Baronius' defense of Theo (which based on the fact 'he didn't study programming, thus he's not liable for bugs in his software').

[Drew]

First of, I wouldn?t exactly qualify outdated modding-tools as a ?pit of vipers?.

You'd probably feel differently after the nth time you tried to help a new modder to solve some obscure bug only to find that the bug was there because the new modder was trying to use a broken tool. You definitely would after fielding multiple bug reports for your own mod only to find out 2 weeks later that the bug is actually do to a different mod.......and that the bug in the other mod (which is messing up your mod) came from using a broken tool. Time spent supporting existing mods is time which is not spent modding. When you are trying to support your own mods and help developing modders, bad coding and assorted other bugs in other mods become your problem, too. That "pit of vipers" hurts more than just newbie modders. It hurts JC, too.

[Grunker]

I see your point. Adding to the huge amount of work the modders do already is a bad idea. But your solution would be removing said tools from public access? So users are to be prohibited from using these tools altogether? What gives any of us the right to make a decision about that?

The comparison to the viperpit is wrong - simply because Igi is not encouraging people to use the tools (i.e. setting the pit up in the street), but giving the people the choice to download it (i.e. walk into his store and collect the viper after recieving a warning).

If the solution you are suggesting is another that removing the tools entirely, then why is that the only solution I can find in this thread (not counting Igi's)?

I'm not saying you're not right, I'm saying that if you are, you would be better of suggesting how else to make the tools accessible, without (the seemingly endless amount of) newbies getting their hands on it because they can't find/haven't searched for other, better tools.

Suma sumarum, telling Igi what not to do probably won't get you far - suggesting what else to do might.

@the Bigg: I was speaking about your tone in this thread in general, sorry if I was unclear. I'm simply saying you would get further if you kept the flames stowed away for JC's rocket-chair, and used your time to think of a better way to do things/jerk of, as you so kindly suggested Igi should do

Edited by Grunker, 19 June 2006 - 02:16 PM.

[MorningGlory]

What gives any of us the right to make a decision about that?

While the availability of the tools is regrettable and I fully support restricting people's ability to do silly things (like release a 300MB mod which breaks everyone's game), this is not the key problem. Rather, the primary complaint is is that the TeamBG site owners have decided the need to actively make the tools available once more. By extension, this implies that said site owners are still operating under the belief that these tools may prove useful to somebody somewhere. This is an unfortunate misconception that I thought we'd crushed years ago. Again, the difficulty is not that IDU is still available and we're trying to stifle people's right to choose, as much as I'd love to. The difficulty is that somebody woke up one morning and thought "I know, we need to make IDU available for download again!" While it may seem harsh to attempt to have it removed in hindsight, the fact that anyone actually bothered putting them back up suggests that there's still some education required in terms of their utter worthlessness.

You didn't really answer the question, Mr./Ms. Guest -- except to say you wished to abrogate everyone's decision of choice by imposing your own, then mitigating your stance by implying it's for our own 'good.'

You must dwell in a rather lofty place.

MG

[Drew]

You must dwell in a rather lofty place.

No. He's just tired of seeing modders bang their heads against a wall. If you saw someone trying to drive a nail into the wall with an empty beer bottle, wouldn't you want to step in and maybe show him how much more efficient and safe using a hammer would be? Using IDU and IDW to make and distribute mods is like trying to drive finishing nails into your apartment wall with an empty beer bottle. It's technically possible, but you are far more likely to have the bottle explode in your face than you are to actually accomplish something useful.

Edited by Drew, 19 June 2006 - 11:05 PM.

[Grunker]

Which is exactly what I mean Drew. You can show him the better tool - but you can't force him to use it. I know it may seem as I'm hanging onto principles for nothing but the sake of that very principle, and in reality, I probably am. Problem is, if we begin banning certain tools because we believe we are 'enlightened' enough to do so, we may believe we are enlightened in other cases always, e.g. if someone invented an alternative to weidu.

The only ones who really have a right to remove the tools entirely are their creators.

What we can do is restrict the availability of the tools, which I suggest we do. How we do it is up to the people who hosts them - and their critics (i.e. Igi, Daxziz, Seifer and theBigg, JC, you, and the guests).

[khay]

You`re not really banned, just having your user account temporarily suspended. If you were banned, you wouldn`t be able to post.

[MorningGlory]

You didn't really answer the question, Mr./Ms. Guest -- except to say you wished to abrogate everyone's decision of choice by imposing your own, then mitigating your stance by implying it's for our own 'good.'

I wasn't aware that I was required to give a semantically concise response to every question posed in a thread. Perhaps this should be amended to your forum rules, although enforcement may prove inconvenient since I am already banned anyway.

It appeared as though you were attempting to reply to Grunker's question, as you cited it prior to what was taken as your answer.

If you feel so strongly about the evil of such tools, and if you think that the less-enlightened,modding-going public needs to be educated, perhaps you could start a forum at ppg that would offer revealing dissertations on what horrors await the user. It would seem far better to employ education as a tactic in your fight for tool justice, rather than an out-and-out smack down. At least the public could then make an informed decision on their own rather than have some ubiquitous Big Brother making it for them.

[grogerson]

There's a lot of heat here. Perhaps a warning that those entering this thread should be ready to be FLAMED is in order? Though flaming seldom accomplished anything useful, heat used to drive something...

For those who seem to find only criticism of restarting TeamBG, I have a few words. igi has set a high goal in restarting TeamBG, and taken on a load of historical (and apparently negative) baggage with it . Give them some time, say six months or so, and revisit this topic with something substantial. By then it'll be clear if they've succeeded or failed at their goal, though I suspect it'll be somewhere in the middle.

theBigg has some just concerns, as stated early in this thread, about some of the tools. igi has asked for recommendations. Here's mine (though I'm no modder, I have problems programming a VCR ):

Use a tiered system. Set the "legacy tools" in a separate section. Then set those tools with a proven track record of breaking things accessible by PM only, with clear notice of what they mess up, and that these tools are for the more experienced modders, not for intermediate or (Lord save us) newbies. It should also be recommended that those who use those tools available by PM only have other experienced modders double-check what they've done to catch and squish as many bugs as possible... Being part of a team instead of lone-wolfing it will produce a better mod.

A hammer with a broken claw may not be able to pull nails, but it can still drive them. The old tools may not be as effective or efficient as the new ones, but can still be used to start a process.

This ain't perfect, but it's a place to start...

For now TeamBG has my vote. That may change in the future. Maybe they'll get some new "big mods" made, maybe not. I wouldn't mind an IWD port to BG2 similar to BG-TUTU . It's something that has yet to be successfully accomplished (those "bit" codes should be a nice challenge...).

[MorningGlory]

If you feel so strongly about the evil of such tools, and if you think that the less-enlightened,modding-going public needs to be educated, perhaps you could start a forum at ppg that would offer revealing dissertations on what horrors await the user.

How very Attic.

How very evasive.

[NiGHTMARE]

I tried doing this before but it was, as usual, promptly deleted by the Comedy Array.

Sorry, what? PPG global mods have absolutely no power to delete things here at SHS.

[jcompton]

A hammer with a broken claw may not be able to pull nails, but it can still drive them. The old tools may not be as effective or efficient as the new ones, but can still be used to start a process.

Invalid analogy. IDU and IDW are inferior and/or broken for all possible tasks. They are wholly superceded in dialogue creation by WeiDU, and wholly superceded as browsers by Infinity Explorer and DLTCEP.

perhaps you could start a forum at ppg that would offer revealing dissertations on what horrors await the user.

How is it even possible that, more than four years after IDU's worthlessness was clearly established, we are having the same arguments? This really is the most elaborately plotted joke I've ever encountered. The coordination required to get so many people lined up with so many ridiculous things to say must have taken a great deal of planning.

Forum discussions about the many and varied problems with IDU/IDW only get you so far because the substantial majority of downloaders do not frequent the forums. As I said, I found that a terrifying number of people have downloaded IDW from Dlan, and I'm quite certain most of them haven't been 'round the forums to discuss it. They've just created broken dialogues and I could hardly blame them if they said "Well, obviously this IE modding thing is a joke, I'll just go make some Freedom Force mods instead." So you, the downloading public, lose. (Unless you prefer Freedom Force, that is.)

I realize that it must feel like charity work for the Defenders of Misfit Toys (many of whom in this discussion don't seem to know a state trigger from a state capital, mind you) to show up and say "IDU has feelings too and you're all such meanies for suppressing it!"

But every published broken tool is a substantial and wholly unnecessary barrier to entry for new modders. Advertising their availability is, as I have maintained about this exercise all along, a complete and utter joke. If having your joke is more important than enabling good and productive modding, then I have nothing but contempt for your position.

[NiGHTMARE]

The funny thing is, some of the people attacking IDU and IDW are starting to sound suspiciously like Ken and his anti-WeiDU rhetoric of old...

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 20 June 2006 - 07:09 AM.