262 replies to this topic

[SConrad]

And I was 10 when I made my first website. It looked like crap and if it was on paper I'd burn it.

Age is not relevant. Find other arguments, please.

[Avenger_teambg]

You know, it's very confusing having all of this discussion about TeamBG policy on Studios, while Studios policy discussions take place on PPG, etc. etc. Maybe that would be a good use for the otherwise-unnecessary FWP forum--a one-stop shop for all site policy discussions!

Heh, this is a good idea, it could be named Inferno or Troll Mound.
We could have deathmatches or one against all fights there.
But all crap should go there so the other boards are free of it.
Sadly it is hard to move topics between sites, so it will be up to the goodwill of modders... So this idea is doomed. Well, i tried

[edit] fwp -- flame war p... project? place?

Edited by Avenger_teambg, 26 June 2006 - 01:56 PM.

[jester]

Isn't trolling what coffeeplace is meant for?

@unsupported tools/Captn Immortality: If some tool, say a wrench, is broken it is all well and good to display it as a 'legacy wrench', but if it is useless, don't put it where people might use it without the chance of proper warning.

A site without links which just said:

Hey, sort of invented a bike or something like it back then, but it didn't fly, but still was sorta cool back then.....etc.

@personal preferences:
I found IEEP a lot easier to work with than DLTCP or whatsitsname, but I have been told that this program covers a lot more options than the former.

[Baronius]

You know, it's very confusing having all of this discussion about TeamBG policy on Studios, while Studios policy discussions take place on PPG, etc. etc. Maybe that would be a good use for the otherwise-unnecessary FWP forum--a one-stop shop for all site policy discussions!

Heh, this is a good idea, it could be named Inferno or Troll Mound.
We could have deathmatches or one against all fights there.

I know better. Considering how popular these fight threads are, I think we should meet in reality and organize a good fight.
JCompton could bring his deadly vipers, guest would be disguised in a robe, and everyone could gratify his/her passions in the fight, using fists, daggers & stuff. And so on... would be much fun, wouldn't it?
Would save some bandwidth for SHS too.

Edited by Baronius, 26 June 2006 - 02:31 PM.

[Andyr]

Quoted for truth. Can any modder really stand by and say there's a good reason to have IDU/IDW actively supported?

But thats the thing, Andy, IDU and IDW and all the rest of tools Theo made are not supported and havent been supported by him in YEARS!!! He has no interest in supporting them, i can say he never had!! In his own site (to host all the tools he made over the years) it says CLEARLY in the main page that he DOESNT give support to any of them, and theyre there just because he wanted to have them all in one place. (Ref: http://gameapps.com).

Sorry, Ana--I should have clarified. By "supported" I meant along the lines of "encouraged for use", as opposed to having tech suppport/updates offered. As you say, there's better tools available and I think that's what's best for people to used.

@personal preferences:
I found IEEP a lot easier to work with than DLTCP or whatsitsname, but I have been told that this program covers a lot more options than the former.

I have used IEEP a lot, too (I am currently in the phase of using both it and DLTCEP). I don't think it needs warnings on it in the same way that IDU/IDW do, although I encourage new modders to try DLTCEP because it has a wider range of capabilities.

[Baronius]

Update: Don't use WinBiff to extract any WED and TIS files. Many thanks to Vlad for sharing this at TeamBG!

[Vlad]

To summarise, IETME was too advanced for average computers when it was released. In 2002 my Pentium II with 64 MB and 8 MB shared video memory simply couldn't handle it. The only serious problem in IETME is a memory leakage (it doesn't collect *code garbage* upon execution). I have strongly critised it myself 4 years ago, but now with my Athlon 64 3200+, 1 GB brain, 256 MB video, 3 drives SATA II RAID, I really enjoy this excellent program. Once again, thanks to Theo, he looked into future. DLTCEP is a very nice combo tool for IE modding but it doesn't provide all the userfriendly functions of IETME for area editing. In IETME you make or edit areas mainly with your mouse without thinking about verticies and polygons. It is the only area editing utility which allows beginners and advanced users to make rapidly an area from scratch including all features and maps. People who argue about its capabilities, either have a very old PC or just have never used it.

[EDIT] In respect to the previous post of Baronius, IETME doesn't like areas extracted (and damaged) with WinBiff. As there was no other tools in 2002, all areas extracted with WinBiff normally hung IETME. Today it's not a case. Areas extracted with DLTCEP are easily edited in IETME... and no more green water!

[EDIT2] It's wrong to state that Theo didn't fix bugs and didn't update IETME. In fact, he had worked on it all the time when he was in the IE community. That is why it's actually IETME v2.2.2. Also, he wrote a very nice tutorial on IETME. Why did you jump on him, I have no idea. Today, it seems several modders are looking for some commercial benefits from their modding. But remember that TeamBG programmers made and distributed such valuable programs like IETME for free. So, even you do not make areas yourself, you're still playing mods made with IETME. Please, be gratefull to guys who made all this modding available and absolutely free for you.

Edited by Vlad, 26 June 2006 - 11:51 PM.

[the bigg]

To summarise, IETME was too advanced for average computers when it was released. In 2002 my Pentium II with 64 MB and 8 MB shared video memory simply couldn't handle it. The only serious problem in IETME is a memory leakage (it doesn't collect *code garbage* upon execution). I have strongly critised it myself 4 years ago, but now with my Athlon 64 3200+, 1 GB brain, 256 MB video, 3 drives SATA II RAID, I really enjoy this excellent program. Once again, thanks to Theo, he looked into future. DLTCEP is a very nice combo tool for IE modding but it doesn't provide all the userfriendly functions of IETME for area editing. In IETME you make or edit areas mainly with your mouse without thinking about verticies and polygons. It is the only area editing utility which allows beginners and advanced users to make rapidly an area from scratch including all features and maps. People who argue about its capabilities, either have a very old PC or just have never used it.

Writing a leaking program is looking into the future because of the additional RAM needed? This sounds like a Microsoft commercial - "We coded it with the technology of yesterday, sell it today, and you'll use it with the computers of tomorrow!"

Today, it seems several modders are looking for some commercial benefits from their modding. But remember that TeamBG programmers made and distributed such valuable programs like IETME for free.

who takes commercial advantages over what now?

[Vlad]

...he looked into future.

Should I add a smile here? Expression of irony, somethingg like this ==>

[the bigg]

Y'know, if you want to express irony over the Internet, you really should place some kind of smiley, otherwise people would thing you're just reharesing some kind of pro-Microsoft advertising <-- see, this means I was being ironic

[Baronius]

Writing a leaking program is looking into the future because of the additional RAM needed? This sounds like a Microsoft commercial - "We coded it with the technology of yesterday, sell it today, and you'll use it with the computers of tomorrow!"

Generally, if memory leaking is intense enough, no RAM will prevent your system from freezing / giving other symptoms sooner or later -- provided you are constantly using the program for long enough time.

EDIT: To sum up, "for future" is not an excuse for a leaking program. Of course it can make it usable at least (see Vlad's case). But naturally this doesn't substract anything from IETME's significance in IE area creation. First make a better program, and then tell how bad the others are.

Edited by Baronius, 27 June 2006 - 04:27 AM.

[the bigg]

First make a better program, and then tell how bad the others are.

"if you don't like this mod, make your own".

PS: I thougth that Vlad was being serious about the "looking into the feature" part, hence my reply
PPS: and I still think that IETME is a good tool (differently from the argument that IAP or IDU sucks nowadays no matter what); a pity it causes leaks.

[Baronius]

Then we agree. Rare event.

[Andyr]

The only modding-related financial gain I can think of is Sorcerer's Place encouraging people to donate to their site as a way of giving thanks for providing mod downloads, despite the facts that they didn't make most of the mods (something they're not always open about) and a lot of the links are external.

Edited by Andyr, 27 June 2006 - 09:26 AM.

[khay]

I think he meant modding in general, not exclusively IE. There are plenty of people asking money for mods made for games other than the IE ones.

Do correct me if I am wrong, please.

[Baronius]

The only modding-related financial gain I can think of is Sorcerer's Place encouraging people to donate to their site as a way of giving thanks for providing mod downloads, despite the facts that they didn't make most of the mods (something they're not always open about) and a lot of the links are external.

Do you have any clue how much does its forum software, server, active technical support (and this wasn't everything) cost per month? Plus the RAM and hardware upgrades when required.
(However, even if it's profitable, why not? No one would be so stupid not trying to make money from a site when it's possible.
The old TeamBG also tried to negotiate with Bioware about a commercial activity related to mods. When there might be a possibility, why not to make an attempt?)

I don't know about any concrete examples to it in modding, but it's quite possible (if not obvious) that since there are so many games and many mods, some people are trying to make some money from it. As far as IE modding is concerned, I don't know of any examples either. BWL and IEGMC asks for donations (and I may have seen it somewhere else too but I don't remember), but these (at least BWL; as I can only talk in BWL's name) make so little income that it's enough only to compensate a few percent of the total costs.

[CamDawg]

The only modding-related financial gain I can think of is Sorcerer's Place encouraging people to donate to their site as a way of giving thanks for providing mod downloads, despite the facts that they didn't make most of the mods (something they're not always open about) and a lot of the links are external.

Ironworks, BWL, and IEGMC solicit donations; RPG Dungeon runs ads (as did the old FW); PPG has a Cafepress store; the old TeamBG tried to sell CDs of mods. Not that I think any of these actually turn(ed) an actual profit, mind.

Do you have any clue how much does its forum software, server, active technical support (and this wasn't everything) cost per month?

Yes.

However, even if it's profitable, why not? No one would be so stupid not trying to make money from a site when it's possible.

Indulge me for a moment while I embarass myself by revealing my hippie side.

It always makes me smile a bit when a well-meaning poster starts a 'thank you modders' thread. They just don't understand--it should be the modders thanking the players. The players make the community come alive: that, in turn, fosters passion, imagination, creativity, and innovation, and allows modders to explore and push their technical and artistic skills to new achievements.

I wouldn't spend my time and effort doing modding if I didn't love it. Sure, I could recoup some costs from splashing some ads on the pages, or adding a Cafepress store, or a Paypal account for donations--but the community already gives us so much. G3 belongs to the community that visits, that interacts on the site. I started G3 so that I could give back to the players before me, to the modders whose mods I've enjoyed. It's grown well beyond my most optimistic hopes.

No, I wouldn't dream of trying to turn a profit off of that.