28 replies to this topic

[AnnabelleRose]

As above. It has been expressed that people who play mods opions matter less then the opions of people who create mods when it comes to mods themselves.

I created this poll, and strongly encourage people who do not create mods in any fashion to vote and give feedback.

[Jolyth]

I assume there would be a point to creating a mod that is incompatible with other mods?

[the bigg]

Depends. if it is designed to be incompatible with GBG or BP components then sure. If it is designed to be incompatible with a mod of good reputation (most of those from PPG, G3, and a select few of the SHS ones), then no, because it'd block me from installing the mods I like

[Seifer]

It defeats the purpose of creating Weidu making a mod like this. The motivation of the mod author would also have to be looked at and if this is the Anvil mod Silket has released, then no.

[the bigg]

It defeats the purpose of creating Weidu making a mod like this. The motivation of the mod author would also have to be looked at and if this is the Anvil mod Silket has released, then no.

Is it incompatible with mod X by design or because the author doesn't know WeiDU or because the other mod is coded crappily? I got the impression of #2, rather than #1. Also, WW-IU is coded crappily, so that doesn't help.

EDIT: Oh, OK, checked the threads at BWL, IA is designed to be incompatible with WW-IU due to a conscious choice. Since I'd sooner install the Hip Hop mod than anything done at BWL (or non-TS&N CoM, or BMP, or RPGD...), this won't affect my install list, but it's very sad.

Edited by the bigg, 06 April 2006 - 02:51 AM.

[SConrad]

Depends on the mod, I guess. Voted 'yes', since I could consider playing a mod if it was intentionally designed to be incompatible with other mods.

In this case, if you're referring to the BWL mod, then the answer is 'no'.

[Avenger_teambg]

I wouldn't play any mod

Sadly the TOIW/Embers TCs were not finished/published, so i don't play

[the bigg]

I wouldn't play any mod

Sadly the TOIW/Embers TCs were not finished/published, so i don't play

Since you enjoy TCs, did you try Return to Trademeet?

[Creepin]

As above. It has been expressed that people who play mods opions matter less then the opions of people who create mods when it comes to mods themselves.

Well, you know, it's rather true about which opinion matters, because I imagine most modmakers create mods just for a sheer fun of creating mods, not for some unknown people who might happen to play it.

But since you asked opinion of those who just play mods and I'm one of this rare species here... well

In my BG life, one of main purposes for mod existence is to expand BG world as far as possible in all regards - locations, items, quests, NPCs, you name it. So, if another mod out here could be added to make my world a bit larger - it's damn great! If I could have certain mod only at a cost of turning down another one - I would carefully think about which mod is better, but old one will get a big bonus for just being first (therefore author of the last mod was having all the chances of making his mod compatible with this old one, and if he didn't use them I think it to be a big flaw in his work). In rare cases when adding one new mod would require from me removing of few older mods... hmm, choosing between one perfect mod and several intermediate ones I'll choose latter, for my main goal is as endless BG world as possible

Edited: I also believe that making incompatible mods simply impolite somehow

Edited by Creepin, 06 April 2006 - 12:41 PM.

[Baronius]

Since I'd sooner install the Hip Hop mod than anything done at BWL (or non-TS&N CoM, or BMP, or RPGD...)

This surprised me. Could you clarify it a bit?

[the bigg]

[This surprised me. Could you clarify it a bit?

None of your mods concepts terribly appeals to me, and (perhaps more importantly) none of your modders seems competent enough (or mod-polite enough, or both) to have some hope that my gaming build will work without the need of side trips to NI/InfExp/WeiDU/... to fix a bug.

Of course, Sikret doesn't help improve your reputation in my eyes.

[jastey]

(perhaps more importantly) none of your modders seems competent enough (or mod-polite enough, or both) to have some hope that my gaming build will work without the need of side trips to NI/InfExp/WeiDU/... to fix a bug.

Nah, that's a bit harsh. I feel slightly offended. Well, OK, maybe the first description applies to me. But not the latter one.
And was that some kind of hidden bug-fixing offer from your side?

[the bigg]

Nah, that's a bit harsh. I feel slightly offended. Well, OK, maybe the first description applies to me. But not the latter one.

As I said, some fall in the 'the concept doesn't appeal me', others in the 'not very much competent', and still others fall in the 'not mod-polite' category, etc.

And was that some kind of hidden bug-fixing offer from your side?

Huh?

[jastey]

And was that some kind of hidden bug-fixing offer from your side?

Huh?

That was a joke... But you did mention using NI/InfExp/WeiDU/... for bug-fixing, so.

[the bigg]

That was a joke... But you did mention using NI/InfExp/WeiDU/... for bug-fixing, so.

Well, if I like a specific mod and plan on using it again, I might even recode it and send the new tp2 to the author to solve an incompatibility. However, if a mod doesn't work and I don't particularly like it, I prefer to just use IE to look up a global and set it to finish playing the mod, then uninstall it for my next run-through (and eventually report the bug).

[Ismail]

depends. If it's a good total conversion mod... Well, darn straight it's gonna be incompatible with others, but I play it nevertheless. Some are incompatible by virtue of plot (Kelsey, Chloe and Imoen Romance come in mind), and then I just try one that I haven't done yet.

OF course it's cooler when mods ARE compatible, especially technically. But plot-wise, I'd say the author would have to first make their own mod, THEN look how it mixes and matches with others. If they're incompatible plot-wise, then don't install them at the same time, but keep one in reserve for the next run-through.

[seanas]

Of course it's cooler when mods ARE compatible, especially technically. But plot-wise, I'd say the author would have to first make their own mod, THEN look how it mixes and matches with others. If they're incompatible plot-wise, then don't install them at the same time, but keep one in reserve for the next run-through.

the problem here, and the reason for the poll, is what to do when the author codes in entirely unnecessary incompatibilities? when there's no narrative, character or technical reason for the incompatibility? modders are humans like the rest of us (i'm assured...): they dont have to like or support all mods: both bigg and vlad make it quite clear there are 3rd-party mods they have no interest in supporting compatibility-wise - as is their right.

but what to do when someone deliberately codes in such a way that breaks other ppl's work (when there better alternatives, no less), codes needless incompatibilities, and then refuses to provide documentation for their changes? sure, the simple solution is to just ignore the modder and their creation, but what about when ppl start coming to yr own forums and saying 'yr mod is broken' because of this other person's selfishness? as an example, look at the trouble cause by the Fade mod when it blocked off the Guarded Compound (and at least, for the Fade mod, it made sense in terms of its plot to do this): it was fixed, eventually, but the point it makes is a good one: making changes to canon materials - or fanon materials - is a really bad idea, unless entirely necessary and then *clearly* documented: selfish and stupid, basically.

[the bigg]

both bigg and vlad make it quite clear there are 3rd-party mods they have no interest in supporting compatibility-wise - as is their right.

...unless the changes to apply did not take too much time to implement and were promptly reported. I think I never denied such help
What I don't want to do is to actively investigate BMP coding, but if somebody came and asked 'could you change X and Y to make Z work?' I'd be happy to oblige

And, for those of you keeping score, IA was coded in such a way as to effectively break Item Upgrade:

<snip>
why don't you want your mod to be compatibile with Weimer's?

Because I don't want Cromwell (and Cespenar) to consume the components to make other items than what is introduced by Improved Anvil. If Weimer's mod is installed and is compatible with Improved Anvil, the player may go to Cromwell and upgrade item X, consuming component Y (through Weimer's mod). Later he will never be able to upgrade item Z through Improved Anvil, because he has already consumed the component needed for it. I don't want to allow such thing to happen.

[CamDawg]

the problem here, and the reason for the poll, is what to do when the author codes in entirely unnecessary incompatibilities? when there's no narrative, character or technical reason for the incompatibility? modders are humans like the rest of us (i'm assured...): they dont have to like or support all mods: both bigg and vlad make it quite clear there are 3rd-party mods they have no interest in supporting compatibility-wise - as is their right.

Hold on though--there's a huge difference in how this is handled. I think bigg has an excellent approach in mod development (in no small part because he and I approach it more or less the same way ): go to great lengths to use surgical code to only change what's minimally necessary to accomplish the goals of a mod. Not only does it minimize any potential compatibility problems before they can occur but it future-proofs the mod as well. (For those of you who like buzzwords, think proactive vs. reactive.) Not all mod authors will be around forever. There are still compatibility pitfalls, but a smart approach will reduce your incompatibility risk profile by several orders of magnitude.

I argue that for that reason alone it's worth the extra investment. That it adds to player satisfaction, reduced mod maintenance load, and modular/re-useable code is simply gravy.

[seanas]

how can i hold on when i agree with you entirely, Cam? lazy and/or incompetent coding is so short-sighted as to be mind-boggling. you release something to the community cos you want it to be played; everyone likely to install yr mod is likely to install other mods; therefore, building in incompatibilities only reduces the audience and the life-span of yr mod.

i'm not saying hex-patching is easy - i'm quite sure it's beyond my abilities - but shit, releasing a needlessly incompatible overwriting mod in this day and age - when even the BP family are 'minimally invasive' - is slicing yr nose to spite yr face.