96 replies to this topic

[SimDing0]

don't give a fuck about quality

Rich.

[SimDing0]

k

[Hety]

Hrm... I wonder..when people waste their time make full or partial modification.. for whom they are doing all this?
For money? - Nah. Dream on.
For players? - Maybe...
For emselves? - YES.

As (n00b) modder i wanna say that all i do i do ONLY for myself. If anyone else want to use mod - sure, why not? But quality of mod is controlled by will of modder. If he is happy with what he's doing - great. If not - why the hell he's waisting time? He got right to do what he wish in the way he wish. Thats all. Quality Assurance / Quality Control(for those who dont know the abbreviation) you say? Hell, i was paid hella lot for doing this. You cant force one into doing something he does not want unless you PAY for his time.

And again:
The ONLY QA here is conscience of modder. Nothing else. Blaming someone for doing something he want the way he want it done and not the way YOU want it done(unless you are his boss) is fucking brilliant idea.

And as a player i can say that if modder will say GO TO HELL(which SBB done once, in more mild form ) i wont say a word. Really. I'm not in right to blame anyone for anything

GG.

[Shed]

Keep on topic, everyone .

[seanas]

straying off-topic..

And again:
The ONLY QA here is conscience of modder. Nothing else. Blaming someone for doing something he want the way he want it done and not the way YOU want it done(unless you are his boss) is fucking brilliant idea.

And as a player i can say that if modder will say GO TO HELL(which SBB done once, in more mild form ) i wont say a word. Really. I'm not in right to blame anyone for anything

yr wrong Hety. if i make a mod for my own use, then there's no requirement for QA or compatibility: shit, i make IAPs all the time, but there's no way i'm going to distribute them to other to use! however: whilst each mod-maker might be making mods for themselves, they're not the only ppl making mods: they're part of this community of BG players/ modders. once you do start making yr mods publicly available, you do have an obligation to either make yr mod compatible with other mods, or to explain clearly (and repeatedly ) why yr mod isn't compatible. you only need to trawl around the various BG forums and look at the flak that mod-makers continue to receive when, whether due to error or bad design choice, their mod breaks or is otherwise incompatible with other mods or with the core game.

with the merged entity, this is particularly true: as domi says, if the proposed merged entity makes a bunch of other mods incompatible, or is an alpha-release pretending to be a final release, or changes core game material, there wont be a merger: the old Tutu or BGT will continue to circulate if they meet users' needs better than the 'merged' entity - which would clearly be the worst possible outcome. so there's a compelling need to a: do QA on the merged entity to make it solid; b: to bring as many mod-makers (ideally, all of them) onboard by making the merged entity as broadly compatible as possible; and c: to hew as closely as possible to the core game materials.

[Hety]

They best example of almost 100% backward compatibility is Windows. Dunno about you, but i perfer *nix with its "take it or leave it" system. I'm using FreeBSD mostly. There is a system of ports there. Fast install scripts for various applications. When system changes are maintainers have to chang em all(usually not so bad, but happens). Its more than 10000 ports. Why? For the greater good. And you are talking about changing mere 20(or even 100, which is still mere) mods? Especially assuming that changes will be mostly in naming and can be done by mass replace. After all if you do not want to do it - dont do it. Simple.

I'm positively sure there WILL be QA on the merger. And bugs will be fixed. And MT will help modder sto make their mods compatible. But saying: you mofo's dont touch anything here, i like it that way - sux imo.

I'm personally for 100% compatibility of everything with everything. But things are made by people, who cant make em compatible with emself sometimes, and you are talking about programs

And yes. I totally agree with A and B and C. I'm 100 for it, just as those, who will develop merger(at least i hope so). But the attitude makes me shiver. Again, they most probably WILL do that all, but FORCING them into anything is BAD idea.

P.S.: imo enuf of this

Edited by Hety, 24 January 2006 - 10:25 AM.

[Vlad]

Hrm... I wonder..when people waste their time make full or partial modification.. for whom they are doing all this?
For money? - Nah. Dream on.
For players? - Maybe...
For emselves? - YES.

As (n00b) modder i wanna say that all i do i do ONLY for myself. If anyone else want to use mod - sure, why not? But quality of mod is controlled by will of modder. If he is happy with what he's doing - great. If not - why the hell he's waisting time? He got right to do what he wish in the way he wish. Thats all. Quality Assurance / Quality Control(for those who dont know the abbreviation) you say? Hell, i was paid hella lot for doing this. You cant force one into doing something he does not want unless you PAY for his time.

And again:
The ONLY QA here is conscience of modder. Nothing else. Blaming someone for doing something he want the way he want it done and not the way YOU want it done(unless you are his boss) is fucking brilliant idea.

And as a player i can say that if modder will say GO TO HELL(which SBB done once, in more mild form ) i wont say a word. Really. I'm not in right to blame anyone for anything

GG.

100% my opinion on mod making. It is a never ending journey of my own enjoyment which has nothing to do with someone's else except my friends and/or co-authors who enjoy it equally with me. I didn't like how Coran after being saved by PC leaves, then I made him joinable and enjoyed that mini-mod. I wanted to save Yoshimo and made an NPC-NPC romance, including many other innovative features, then we've made a mod which for a long time wasn't compatible with other mods, I didn't like IWD style of game, then I've converted it not only to BG2 engine like made Weimer with IWD2 but we made a whole new game of BG2 style with NPCs, interactions and once again really enjoyed it. Many call it testing but after tens times of walkthrough through NeJ2 it's still a very enjoyable game for me. And eventually this very long discussion on choice of the sub-platform for conversion is very laughable as I see, and at the same time becomes very boring because who does really argue about it? Players who don't know what is the specific weight between creating a mod and testing it, or modders who does know this. Afterall if this merger is made for players then it's really nonsense in my opinion, because both platforms now perfectly serve the needs of our very small internet community, and moreover instead of making mods you'll spend a lot of time on debugging a new platform and I'm not so optimistic like Domi. I'd say it will take 3-4 years if the current modders would still be on this scene including myself. When I'll really become boring and when I receive at least 100 request to convert TS and NeJ2 to the new platform then I'll think about it. I've received hundreds (!) requests to convert TS to WeiDU for 3-4 years before I converted it, and only then Bill came to the same decision. What I want to say that it doesn't matter how successfull and fast is the merger project, the limiting step will be mod conversion for sure... By the way where is my favourite and so long expected RtWH mod? Trully it is the mod I want to play but it's still under development for many many years... It is strange to learn that people argue about what choose BGT or TuTu and how to merge them. Finally they will come for mods which support one platform or another or the third one. And eventually if I love BGT and Sim loves *TuTu*, does it mean we both should combine our efforts and emotions and try falling in love with the both platforms finding the best in them in order to please the audience. I don't think so, I simply don't care.

[EDIT] P.S. A very funny idea came to my mind. TuTu's guys really like the BGT implemented transition and continuity, and now its WeiDU reincarnation and support for bigger mods. But they still refuse to accept that their poor *TuTu* is not so enjoyable like BGT, so they decided why not to take the best from BGT and sew it on their TuTu, and then to convince everyone that such a merger is the best conversion mod. ::

Edited by Vlad, 24 January 2006 - 03:04 PM.

[Drew]

[EDIT] P.S. A very funny idea came to my mind. TuTu's guys really like the BGT implemented transition and continuity, and now its WeiDU reincarnation and support for bigger mods. But they still refuse to accept that their poor *TuTu* is not so enjoyable like BGT, so they decided why not to take the best from BGT and sew it on their TuTu, and then to convince everyone that such a merger is the best conversion mod. ::

A lot of people prefer tutu over BGT. I'm one of them. On the other hand I'm not foolish enough to believe having two platforms is better than one, so I favor the merger. The Tutu folks don't want to merge because they're jealous. They want to merge because it will be better for everyone in the long run.

[Vlad]

They want to merge because it will be better for everyone in the long run.

Well, this I cannot understand really. For whom for everyone? Nobody still gave a single good reason to it.

Edited by Vlad, 24 January 2006 - 10:06 PM.

[Salk]

Vlad,

reasons have been given and plenty. CamDawg's and Ascension64's in particular have made clear with *facts* why a Merger is destined to be a success. It's enough you read Ascension64's comment and perfect analysis when confronting the different opinions that the other thread had offered, examinging step by step every single occurrence. But oh well...

[Ascension64]

Please, for the future, remove the apparently 'Sim-can-do-it-so-I-can-copy-his-attitude' writing from making it to public reading. I can see this topic getting nasty if you don't. If it happens again, I will probably edit out the 'offending' words. Nice and docile, please...

There seems to be a lot of generalisations being made recently, such as 'Most people like...', or 'Everybody prefers...'. Please, if you want to make a sweeping statement like this, then present some evidence for your claim. For example, if you somehow manage to get total download statistics on 'All versions of TuTu' vs. 'All versions of BGT', and find TuTu > BGT, then you can conclude that more people like TuTu.

In terms of whether the merger will be used, and modification compatibility, being the limited factor, I think this only applies to a subset of modifications. If the merger is made and distributed at the same time as the modifications that are considered must-haves, then it will easily present itself as a superior product. For example, the forum for aigleborgne's Enhanced Creatures for BG1TuTu at Blackwyrm lair had a post that said something similar to 'If your mod is solid enough, has great implementation, and includes an important feature that appeals', then it is bound to become used. This is really the same for the merger. The merger boasts superiority in feature, and the extra mod compatibility will boost that level of awe. Would the that fact 'Mulgore and Xavia NPCs' is not available for the merger cause players to cry and go back to BGT and/or TuTu? I wouldn't think so. This may be a little revelation for much of you reading as well, and you will find that most to all BG2-only mods will still install perfectly on such a merger (as they do on BGT-WeiDU!) without requiring any compatibility modification. This will need to be checked, of course.

[Vlad]

reasons have been given and plenty

Do players care about area naming? Who do care about spawn mechanisms when they are implemented differently in BG2. Do you really care about chapter global variables when playing your game? Come on, think a bit... This is just pure *blah-blah-blah*, and nothing serisous really.

Yes, analysis is perfect and very professional but still doesn't bring to any particular conclusion. Did you play BGT yourself? Please tell us did you play BGT with mods? Did you discover problems and blunders? You and *your camp* (Asc's definition ) just wish to play mods made for TuTu on BGT platform, so please combine all your camp's efforts and convert these mods to BGT. However I doubt *your camp* will do this because it's easier to make Asc release another platform for your pleasure and enjoyment. But well, I quit here, there is no sense to spend valuable time on useless discussion.

[Promilus]

...Sorry to tell that...I am against merging...instead of that I suggest to make 2 projects based on similiar rules...something which allow to no-problem porting mods to both platforms. No standard area naming...or item naming..but clear rules to modders how to create mod to be directly (tp2, bat) compatible with both mods.
And keep the roles as they were:
TuTu-Extended and refreshed BG1 Gameplay
BGT-Extended SAGA gameplay

[Borsook]

@ Vlad - from the begining I disliked the transition idea hence I've chosen tutu over bgt. A very personal and uninmportant reason because for me the bottom line is that i want to play BG1 in BG2 engine with as few bugs as possible, regardless of the rest. And I believe only combined efforts of both teams can deliver that experience.

[SimDing0]

You and *your camp* (Asc's definition ) just wish to play mods made for TuTu on BGT platform, so please combine all your camp's efforts and convert these mods to BGT.

BGT has *nothing* over Tutu that I personally want. You're going to have to try harder to invent motivations.

[King Diamond]

Both things could be perfect by their own. But mixing 2 pure inks will produce an unbearable mud.

And I absolutely agree with Vlad so you can burn us both at the stake

Edited by King Diamond, 25 January 2006 - 11:55 AM.

[SimDing0]

Nonsensical metaphors are unconvincing.

[Vlad]

BGT has *nothing* over Tutu that I personally want.

Well, so we came to the same conclusion because I think the same about TuTu which has *nothing* over BGT. You see Sim we eventually came to agreement. Great! However while BGT has been developed and enhanced for a long time, TuTu at the same time slowly decayed. TuTu was nice 4 years ago when most of players worldwide used 56K modems and BGT was at that time 658 MB. Nowdays when most of the world can easily and rapidly download 100 MB, BGT with its strong support and continuos development looks much better, more stable and more attractive. So I don't need to invent motivations, they are very obvious.

[EDIT] TuTu is dead, and in my humble opinion all these attempts to inbreathe a bit of life in it using BGT are laughable. Instead of inciting noble players who don't know all this and think that "HOW IT WOULD BE GREAT TO MERGE BOTH WONDERFULL PROJECTS" you'd better help Ascension to develop BGT and that way contribute to our modding community if you really want to do so.

Edited by Vlad, 25 January 2006 - 01:39 PM.