96 replies to this topic

[ScuD]

Sim, motivation was created by the other people, and after that some people were for this project, some were against.
I've quitted the conversation in the middle, and I again agree with Vlad - he's a reasonable man, I'm sure. There were given NO reasons for conversion. ABSOLUTELY. I (as a tester) don't bother about the area or item names (I know how to use NI after all ) and as a player I'll never think about them.
Just one more question - how many mods are for TuTu and compatible with it and how many are on the BGT side? I have the information from all our 4 main forums.
And really, guys, look into the truth's eyes - our community is small and BG is an old game. We can't rely on the number of registered forums users. Anyway, the number of CS players all over the world is MUCH, MUCH bigger.
Let's finish the discussion. It's pointless.

[Salk]

I believe that posts like these latest ones wouldn't really make Ascension64 happy mostly in consideration his last post where he invited people to be docile and calm. Unfortunately his request has been put down, I see.

[SimDing0]

Great! However while BGT has been developed and enhanced for a long time, TuTu at the same time slowly decayed. TuTu was nice 4 years ago when most of players worldwide used 56K modems and BGT was at that time 658 MB.

And I can only admire the progress BGT has made, and consider the fact that while we've been sat on our asses (or diverting our attention elsewhere, you decide) for months, the BGT team are having to work incredibly hard to reach the same stage as Tutu. I guess all I can say is "I told you so."

[Hety]

Decay? What decay? Tutu does what it should. And good enuf to attract modders. For how long have you played it, Vlad? I confess i never tried it(i hate the idea of "fixpacks", prefer" new version style of BGT) but i regullary check ppg and see much activity there. If project IS mature and stable enough - its time to give modders a chance to mod it. And so they do. I see no stagnation there.

BGT-Weidu(not the old omg huge 500+ mb monster) is relatively new project which is under heavy development. It has serious issues - yes, but the progress is huge over past few months.

Its not right to compare em in such manner imo.

[Hak`M]

I have been following this discussion for some time, and it seems that this way nobody gets convinced. Maybe it would be an idea to make a page on the SHS wiki where everyone can add the pro's and con's of the merger and the parts of both mods they'd like to see in the merger. This way everything will be in a central place, and not spread over x pages and threads. Ascension already made a nice list in the first post of this topic, it could be used for the start (Although a summary might be nice for the lazy people, or when you just want to look back for a bit)

If everyone adds their points there, without just repeating their views time after time (sorry but most of what people say now was said before) then there might be a nice overview and people could decide from there on what they want. And in the end, the people who want to do it should just take the decision. They have to decide if they think it will be worth the trouble, and if the chances of succes are high enough.

I think it would be nice to see a merger, just because it would give more unity in the modding community. But if it is worth all the work... as a non-modder I can't say.

And about BG dying, I noticed that I still haven't found any game similar to BG et al. and better. I stop playing it for half a year or so. And somehow I just return after a bit. Especially when I found out about the modding community.

Now I hope that what I just said made some sense.

Edited by Hak`M, 26 January 2006 - 01:53 AM.

[Promilus]

It has no serious issues at all...if only BGT is iinstalled...issues mostly came from BP mods (TDD, SoS, TS...CtB, NeJ also) and/or DS/NTotSC. Install one of them (BG2 mods before converting) on TuTu and let me see if it has no issues ( ). BGT is TOTALLY different project..I said that in my previous post... Keep the BGT running BGT way and TuTu running TuTu way...now..Asc64 created utility to port some TuTu mods into BGT...and it could be reprogrammed to do similiar operation in the other way...however I think the compatibility can be done even at TP2 level...I don't know what is a problem in naming instalation resources with weird names...then TP2 lines with renaming&copy depending of which (TuTu or BGT) mod we have installed. It is the same engine, other naming and maybe some little script issues..still scripts can be redone to both mods.

[sadun]

Great! However while BGT has been developed and enhanced for a long time, TuTu at the same time slowly decayed. TuTu was nice 4 years ago when most of players worldwide used 56K modems and BGT was at that time 658 MB.

And I can only admire the progress BGT has made, and consider the fact that while we've been sat on our asses (or diverting our attention elsewhere, you decide) for months, the BGT team are having to work incredibly hard to reach the same stage as Tutu. I guess all I can say is "I told you so."

Yes Sim one year earlier you were right at your comments. I would totally agree with you at that time but now all the hard work already done by the Ascension and King Diamond. We are all appreciating on your great work on TuTu and all mods you gifted to the community but now at that point there is not much point TuTu can give to BGT. It is better you and your team will come here and join bgt modding community. We always need such a good modders.

[Borsook]

If indeed BG community is dying out then why the hell merging two teams is a bad idea? It is not about what's different in bgt or tutu (only things a player would notice are the transition in bgt and spawn points in tutu) but the fact that one larger team will work faster and more efficently than two teams trying to solve the same problems separatly.

however I think the compatibility can be done even at TP2 level...I don't know what is a problem in naming instalation resources with weird names...then TP2 lines with renaming&copy depending of which (TuTu or BGT) mod we have installed. It is the same engine, other naming and maybe some little script issues..still scripts can be redone to both mods.

Such and aproach brings more chances for bugs and makes testing far more difficult. I did a mod that works with each and every IE game, with separate tp2 code for each and testing all that is a pain in the ass.

[Suluku]

Yes, its a pity that IE modding ability and energy often seems inversely proportional to emotional maturity

As a non-modder, I'm happy to use any platform necessary to play the mods I like to play, especially as I have lost interest in big, area-recycling mods like TDD and SOS (both of which are overdue for retirement in my view). As the further development of TUTU seems to be stalled due to the prolonged absence of its coder (Japheth), it makes sense to pool resources into a 'standard' platform. But if NWN2 and Dragon Age turn out to have half-decent storylines and character interactions, interest in modding the BG series may plummet and this whole debate may become immaterial.

I won't stop playing BG until i have completed romances with Dynaheir and Nalia, however

[Andyr]

"Tutu is dead" is a statement I would suggest is false.

(I agree with Sim but don't think there's much point me repeating his arguments, so I won't, but just say I concur.)

[SimDing0]

Yes Sim one year earlier you were right at your comments. I would totally agree with you at that time but now all the hard work already done by the Ascension and King Diamond. We are all appreciating on your great work on TuTu and all mods you gifted to the community but now at that point there is not much point TuTu can give to BGT. It is better you and your team will come here and join bgt modding community.

False. I suggest that the chronology goes something like this:
1) BGT released. It is a joke.
2) Tutu released. It is... okay.
3) Tutu improves to become cool. BGT is still a joke.
4) Ascension and KD work really hard to improve BGT, to a point where it's viable to consider combining it with Tutu rather than just deleting it from the world.
5) Everybody tries to turn everything into a BP-BGT component.

In spite of the recent work, I assert that Tutu will still give a smoother gameplay experience than the current incarnation of BGT-WeiDU. As a tradeoff, BGT-WeiDU is gifted with more active development, and a transition that some people want. Sure, some day BGT is bound to reach a par with Tutu, but that's already been a whole year of *hugely productive work that was definitely completely neccessary* on the part of the BGT team. How much more will it take?

[Salk]

I just leave this "final" considaration:

Ascension64, CamDawg, SimDing0, Andyr and who else might be part of all this...

Just walk your path without turning. Words have already been spent. Now it's time to get to build what people like me believe will be a great achievement....

Edited by Salk, 26 January 2006 - 07:08 AM.

[SimDing0]

Yes, I can assure you I don't consider Vlad any great authority on how to make mods. On the other hand, I believe availability of older versions is a key factor. If BGT isn't going to be removed from download once a successor is available, I'd sooner just trounce it with a new Tutu version, because the net result is the same.

[Salk]

SimDing0,

I do believe that the Merger would make both BGT and TuTu obsolete and I would not see a reason for continuing their support but it's just my two cents...

[Thauron]

Honestly, I am getting a bit tired and frustrated by this endless discussion. Great, now we're back at the Tutu is better! - no, BGT is better! - Tutu is better, cause smoother! - ... Oh, come on. I could repeat the maturity comment made by Suluku, but I won't.

Frankly speaking and from a practical perspective - I think a merger has no future if Vlad, King Diamond, Domi and Horred don't want to adapt their mods to the new merger's platform - they are the ones which will be affected the most, so their opinion is of vital importance, probably even more important than the opinion of those who might be interested in working on the project.
- We can't just ignore them either - it's just a matter of respect for their hard work these last few years (wasn't the merger intended to create more unity in 'the community'?) + if their mods won't be adapted the merger won't be a succes anyway and will just divide the community once more. - how many players will want to play the new merger if they can't combine NEJ, TDD, SOS, BP, CTB, TS, BG1NPC with it? Not many, I can assure you.
Forcing them to adapt by making BGT or TUTU unavailable is not even worth considering - since it's practically impossible anyway, even if we would want to do that - BGT and TUTU rest upon so many PCs around the globe that they will always re-emerge again somewhere if there are still enough people preferring them over the new merger (because of compatibility issues or other issues).

Judging from the discussion above, I am starting to become seriously pessimistic about this entire endeavour.

[Grunker]

But they still refuse to accept that their poor *TuTu* is not so enjoyable like BGT, so they decided why not to take the best from BGT and sew it on their TuTu, and then to convince everyone that such a merger is the best conversion mod.

I simply don?t understand this point of view. How is it impossible to like both? I only play TuTu when I play Baldur?s Gate, but how does this make me unable to want the transition and a completely connected game also? I certainly would like both, and there seems to be a lot of people who agrees with me.

TuTu is dead, and in my humble opinion all these attempts to inbreathe a bit of life in it using BGT are laughable.

If TuTu is indeed dead, I was never told about it. I still play it with great satisfaction, and again, what?s so wrong about wanting the best of both mods? Converting the trilogy not only into:

a: One game

b: A game with the best possible version of the Infinite Engine

but: into one game using the best possible version of the Infinite Engine in my mind seems to be a perfect reason to do the merger.

Argue all you want about timeframe, mod compatibility and writing-language: These are relevant arguments that can be discussed from a professional point of view (a discussion I won?t take part in, because I don?t have the required knowledge), but leave absurd arguments (such as a merger isn?t doable because everybody loves BGT more and the TuTu-people are just trying to save their own mod from extinction) out of the discussion.

Honestly, I am getting a bit tired and frustrated by this endless discussion. Great, now we're back at the Tutu is better! - no, BGT is better! - Tutu is better, cause smoother! - ... Oh, come on. I could repeat the maturity comment made by Suluku, but I won't.

*Agrees*

how many players will want to play the new merger if they can't combine NEJ, TDD, SOS, BP, CTB, TS, BG1NPC with it?

Me.

Edited by Grunker, 26 January 2006 - 08:07 AM.

[Salk]

how many players will want to play the new merger if they can't combine NEJ, TDD, SOS, BP, CTB, TS, BG1NPC with it?

Me too, Grunker.

However Thauron, even if I understand that TuTu and BGT might be staying in some people's computer even after the merger's release, what I believe is that there should be discountinued support to those platform to favour the new merger instead since the goal of it is to combine the best aspects of the two former platforms.

People will adapt themselves. It's always like this when there is something new at the horizion. Sometimes it can be good and some others it can be bad. But there is *always*, no matter what's coming, the "conservative" wing, people that are always "No!" person.

Your statement for which Vlad's, KD's, horred's, Domi's (all people I have great respect for what they do, mind you) opinions should be more important than the team involved in the Merger is questionable to say the least...

Edited by Salk, 26 January 2006 - 09:01 AM.

[kharan5876]

how many players will want to play the new merger if they can't combine NEJ, TDD, SOS, BP, CTB, TS, BG1NPC with it?

Considering all of those mods(except bg1npc) are installed onto bg2 beforehand I doubt they will be incompatable because of that can be incorporated into the merger. Everyone loves bg1npc, no way it wont be made compatable.

[Borsook]

Should the merger happen I believe the support should be stopped for tutu/bgt. As for removing the download, maybe just stating near the link that it's not recommened, I'm not for taking away the choice as such. And I believe part of the "no" people would change their minds if they got the working, well done merger into their hands (e.g. I really hope Domi would)

And btw I would play the merger without those mods, and I know many people that do not/would not use them too.

[Thauron]

Unfortunately, I have already received the first omen of resistance. I warn about future flaming in this forum (don't do it) when I announce that Vlad's TS/NeJ/other mods in development will support standard BG2:SoA/ToB and BGT-WeiDU only. I understand his situation, and if you are annoyed at this predicament, do not post.

Wasn't Domi's position in the original thread not similar to Vlad's? Horred and King Diamond seem(ed) to be sceptical about the project too. I don't want to blame these people, not in the least, because I understand that adapting their mods (yet again) is not a thing to look forward too. As long as these people are not on the bandwagon, what will be the end result? A huge load of mods incompatible with the merger? Compatible versions of these mods which are not supported by the original author (if they would allow some-one else to code a compatible version of their mods - but who will eventually always lag behind the original versions as long as these are still under development/are being fixed)?

If the first, people will just continue playing the old BGT and Tutu - discontinued support or not, remember both are perfectly playable right now anyway.

If the latter, I am sure you all will agree that this is far from ideal. In this case too, the old platforms will still be used by several players, just to get the most up-to-date versions of the mods they really like.

In both cases the end result would be a BG modding community further separated now over three, not two platforms. The real question is not: are there going to be players for the new platform, regardless of mod compatibility? But: will the new merger indeed replace both platforms completely so that ALL (or at least a huge majority of the) players will from now on play the merger.

@ kharan - I think you underestimate the work necessary to make mods compatible with BGT, why are all these great modders sceptical about the project, because they fear a few days of work on a project they have been working on for many years now? I don't think so. I know as little as you about the problems that might arise, but I don't think it's dumb to assume these people have good reasons to be sceptical about or to be opposed to the merger.