232 replies to this topic

[SimDing0]

In my humble opinion, people who originally have been addicted to *TuTu*, strongly criticized Bardez's project should continue enjoying and developing their *TuTu*.

(This is presumably why Vlad's mods are never compatible with anybody else's. )

SIDE NOTE: Despite this, I still propose the theory that it is 'possible' (not painless) to merge ToB with SoA (i.e., and put an entirely different game in the ToB slot). It is not unfeasible, especially with an XP-reducer like DEFJAM. Just fuel for modder's minds.

I believe the most effective way to do it would be precisely like DEF JAM--with a mod that gets installed the very last out of everything. Such a mod could potentially combine SoA and ToB scripts and dialogues, including those of mods, preventing compatibility issues.

Can you estimate the time expenses for coming to the agreement which features it will include, code them and fix all appeared bugs?

While I've enjoyed dicking around for 5 pages explaining the advantages and disadvantages of both, I find it largely an unproductive endeavour, since I think that in practice it's enormously easy for someone with a reliable understanding to sit down and figure out what the most sensible route is.

Excuses about hundreds of new bugs are dubious. You'd really have to try remarkably hard to introduce a significant number of new issues. We're talking largely about a new distribution medium, not a totally new mod.

[seanas]

to deliver something that can combine the best aspect of the two.

I'm absolutely ignorant here 'coz I never tried TuTu. And I'm just waiting, searching, looking for the list of "the best aspects" that everybody want to obtain with this project. Please tell me - may be I'm missing something very important here.... I'm not sarcastic, I just want to be reasonable....

Talking about "chapter numeration" or "smart spawn points" and knowing that to make that it's necessary to revamp the entire BGT/TuTu mod in the tenth time ('coz it's just a part of merging and one of the "best aspects") receiving another 1000 bugs in a process seems to me as a "waste of modding efforts" exactly.

looking at Cam's list on the front page of this thread, it pretty much amounts to 1. changing the area numbering away from Bardez' original to something more consistent with BG1; 2. adopting Tutu spawn points; 3. re-setting Reputation when the SOA part of the BGT game starts. i have no idea how easy or difficult any of these three things are - you'd have more idea, KD, than i do, that's for sure.

[CamDawg]

Well, it' seems to me a very strange and useless project. Why should the both be combined? BGT in its present from fulfils all the needs of BGT . It works excellent on a BG2 platform and allows any kind of modding. *TuTu* is a paralell project, basically does the same taking into account that transition now is aslo scripted within *TuTu*. In my humble opinion, people who originally have been addicted to *TuTu*, strongly criticized Bardez's project should continue enjoying and developing their *TuTu*.

Some of us that helped Bardez with BGT advocated integrating the projects from the beginning. Sim and Ghrey also advocated integrating the projects at Tutu's release.

[Vlad]

This is presumably why Vlad's mods are never compatible with anybody else's.

Well, this is incorrect Sim. There are many aspects of incompatibility and before you just post such a statement please think about:
1. Size of my mods.
2. Target audience.
3. My own preferences to *anybody else's* mods.

TS and NeJ2 now are compatible with major mods and BGT which I really like, and I really don't see any reason to mix and match BGT & *TuTu*. I have never liked *TuTu* because didn't see any sense in this project because of the lack of continuity between two games, and I fully supported Bardez's project even when it was rejected by many who whined about copyrighting and size problems, exactly the same reaction I recieved on my first version of Travellers In Time. Now look, four years have past since we talked with HardenCoonor about all these problems, and BGT is now flourishing even after Bardez has left the scene, and NeJ2 downloads count thousands. So the compatibility is not the only issue considered here. In my opinion, first of all it is the quality and size of the mod. I'd never play BG2 just because of a single NPC and I'd never play BG1 with *TuTu* just because *TuTu* transfers it to a better screen resolution and adds few BG2 advanced features. However BGT is the whole new game as you can lead your character through the whole saga that makes it really a new game. I would prefer to see the mods made for *TuTu* converted to BGT and made compatible with non-*TuTu* mods. That would be an excellent idea. But to mix and match the two parallel approches trying to incorporate some better spawns, buttons, journal entries and other insignificant stuff is just a waste of time and modding efforts and I'm absolutely agree on this with ScuD and KD.

By the way, I don't need to care much about compatibility of TS and NeJ2 with small mods. This is the problem of *anybody else* who wish that players playing TS and NeJ2 also won't forget to install their mods.

Edited by Vlad, 17 January 2006 - 08:24 AM.

[Salk]

Well...As I mentioned before I am a perfect ignorant about modding so I can't really give a technical evaluation about how hard combining TuTu and BGT-WeiDu might be but I am trying to use logic *and* to read what people who's been involved in such projects (SimDing0, Ascension64, CamDawg) have written about it.

And that is: it's possible. And it should not even be that difficult.

This is more than enough for me to back up their position. I must say that it's a bit like of a dream to imagine modders in the future not have to worry about releasing something that is compatible either with one or with the other and it's a bit like of a dream to imagine that capable, talented modders are willing to discuss and collaborate in order to deliver something new and efficient which, at least in theory, should make everybody happy...

Please try and be reasonable here. Why put down a great idea without even seeing some results ?

Lastly, I'd like to add this: nobody's going to stop the legitimate authors if they want to start this kind of project and if I remember well Ascension64's words he has already made up his mind...

[Bursk]

Those who are unenthusiastic about a merger, are they all from the BGT side of things?

EDIT: I must admit that I find myself thinking along exactly the same lines as Salk. I don't see how a merger could be a bad thing if it's done a: quickly and easily b: properly. Once the projects have merged, surely the modding community as a whole would be better off? Shirley?

Edited by Bursk, 17 January 2006 - 08:48 AM.

[Borsook]

@Vlad - please let not turn it into BGT bettar than tutu, or the other way around. Currently the only noticible difference is the transition, BGT does not make a new game as you seem to suggest. As for the reason for making the merger - mod compatibility - there are many exellent tutu only mods, many of them have their BGT verions made, but they are always a lot of behind, as it will always be well maitaining two versions have to be maintained. The merger would solve that giving the player a wider choice of mods.

[Andyr]

Ascension seems fairly enthusiastic from the BGT side of things, for example.

Those who seem unenthusiastic seem BGT non-modder players, and Vlad (who AFAIK is not involved with either mod).

EDIT: Fixed typo. their -> either.

Edited by Andyr, 18 January 2006 - 07:27 AM.

[Salk]

Ascension seems fairly enthusiastic from the BGT side of things, for example.

Those who seem unenthusiastic seem BGT non-modder players, and Vlad (who AFAIK is not involved with their mod).

Andyr, what is your own opinion ?

[SimDing0]

Well, this is incorrect Sim. There are many aspects of incompatibility and before you just post such a statement please think about:
1. Size of my mods.
2. Target audience.
3. My own preferences to *anybody else's* mods.

TS and NeJ2 now are compatible with major mods and BGT which I really like, and I really don't see any reason to mix and match BGT & *TuTu*. I have never liked *TuTu* because didn't see any sense in this project because of the lack of continuity between two games, and I fully supported Bardez's project even when it was rejected by many who whined about copyrighting and size problems, exactly the same reaction I recieved on my first version of Travellers In Time. Now look, four years have past since we talked with HardenCoonor about all these problems, and BGT is now flourishing even after Bardez has left the scene, and NeJ2 downloads count thousands. So the compatibility is not the only issue considered here. In my opinion, first of all it is the quality and size of the mod. I'd never play BG2 just because of a single NPC and I'd never play BG1 with *TuTu* just because *TuTu* transfers it to a better screen resolution and adds few BG2 advanced features. However BGT is the whole new game as you can lead your character through the whole saga that makes it really a new game. I would prefer to see the mods made for *TuTu* converted to BGT and made compatible with non-*TuTu* mods. That would be an excellent idea. But to mix and match the two parallel approches trying to incorporate some better spawns, buttons, journal entries and other insignificant stuff is just a waste of time and modding efforts and I'm absolutely agree on this with ScuD and KD.

By the way, I don't need to care much about compatibility of TS and NeJ2 with small mods. This is the problem of *anybody else* who wish that players playing TS and NeJ2 also won't forget to install their mods.

Was joke. Sorry.

[Thauron]

Imo, if v6/v16 of TuTu would be made standard it would rock with spawns and stuff. Only the dream thing is a problem right now. As for merging: please. That would be so good .

It's not about making Tutu vXX or BGT standard - it shouldn't be a choice between one of them, but the merging of both. As for Tutu v6, if I look at the known issues thread at PPG - I don't think it is as bugfree as you suggest - so maybe not the ideal starting point.

Also, I think the discussion got a bit 'off topic'. The discussion about which button where, which image how is a not what this thread should be about IMO - those are petty details and it shouldn't be too hard to come to an agreement on that after the important things (transition/no transition: how?, file-naming, TOTSC and TOB requirements,...) are done. (By the way, the BGT-GUI posted is a rather dated one, the one from BGT-BP. Current BGT uses a completely different image (with Elminster, not Irenicus)).

I think everybody should be able to see the benefit of a 'merge'. It would make BG1 modder's life a lot easier - just think about the time it took to convert an excellent mod like BG1NPC to BGT. (By the way - can someone of G3 correct the info on the BGT-version in the download section of G3 - it is still talking about v2 and content only up to BG1NPC v8 which is incorrect (for about half a year now I believe).)

[CamDawg]

I think everybody should be able to see the benefit of a 'merge'. It would make BG1 modder's life a lot easier - just think about the time it took to convert an excellent mod like BG1NPC to BGT. (By the way - can someone of G3 correct the info on the BGT-version in the download section of G3 - it is still talking about v2 and content only up to BG1NPC v8 which is incorrect (for about half a year now I believe).)

In the last BG1NPC for BGT release, it was released directly to the Wizard's mirror and G3 wasn't really involved. I'm not saying it wasn't authorized--we want our mods to be playable by the BGT folks, too --just that we weren't that involved and therefore it was missed by my update cycle completely. I'll fix this ASAP.

As for v6, one of the main problems is that japh addressed a number of v4 issues that the Tutufix team could not (due to it being in the underlying WeiMorph code) and then rode off into the sunset again before addressing them all. As such, the Fixpack ended up trying to support two fairly distinct builds, opting for v4 primary support. I'd argue that v6 is the better version, with this caveat.

[King Diamond]

I'll answer as absolutely selfish BGT adorer. Plz - no offends here....

1. changing the area numbering away from Bardez' original to something more consistent with BG1;

What for? What's wrong with BGT scheme? How it would "help" BG1 modders?

2. adopting Tutu spawn points;

If they work somehow better - I'm totally up for it. But is it a point to open a new huge project? I'm sorry, but from my point of view it seems just as a very good and may be necessary.... tweak for BGT.

3. re-setting Reputation when the SOA part of the BGT game starts

Don't like it. If you was an absolutely scum all the way through BG1 part of the game and killed every peasant in sight why should you receve any indulgence? Once again - a possible optional tweak.

While I've enjoyed dicking around for 5 pages explaining the advantages and disadvantages of both, I find it largely an unproductive endeavour, since I think that in practice it's enormously easy for someone with a reliable understanding to sit down and figure out what the most sensible route is.

As I thought . Still NOBODY gave any concrete important reasons to spend another huge amount of time to re-invent a bicycle finally....

The "best" is an enemy of "good".

Edited by King Diamond, 17 January 2006 - 12:17 PM.

[Hety]

1. It will help TuTu modders BGT modders dont give a shit and use map table
2. Point of single mod is bringing good ideas from both +providing common framework for modders.
3. Reputation? who gives a shit?
4. Cant disagree here.

[CamDawg]

1. changing the area numbering away from Bardez' original to something more consistent with BG1;

What for? What's wrong with BGT scheme? How it would "help" BG1 modders?

We should be focusing on players. Keeping something akin to the original numbers makes walkthroughs useful and makes BG > BGT/Tutu porting easier.

3. re-setting Reputation when the SOA part of the BGT game starts

Don't like it. If you was an absolutely scum all the way through BG1 part of the game and killed every peasant in sight why should you receve any indulgence? Once again - a possible optional tweak.

Except that you're completely unknown in Amn. I find it far more illogical that you would emerge from Chateau Irencius, head over to the Adventurer's Mart and have Ribald give you a hero rep discount. However, this is something easily made optional, and something better discussed during development.

As I thought . Still NOBODY gave any concrete important reasons to spend another huge amount of time to re-invent a bicycle finally....

The "best" is an enemy of "good".

I'll bite. First off, the point of any mod is for the enjoyment of players. Players shouldn't have to choose between mods they want because developers are too overworked/unconcerned/lazy to give them a superior playing experience.

It's a win for modders, too: how many hours do Sir Billy Bob, Ascension64, and others have to spend porting Tutu mods to BGT? How many hours of developer time are wasted by various modders trying to make (and suport) dual versions of their mods?

Re-inventing the project from scratch is foolish, and no one has advocated such an approach. When development starts the logical approach is to begin with one of the two projects (I'd suggest BGT-WeiDU, slightly, over Macready's new EasyTutu) and build in changes/functionality from the other.

[Salk]

Don't like it. If you was an absolutely scum all the way through BG1 part of the game and killed every peasant in sight why should you receve any indulgence? Once again - a possible optional tweak.

KD,

I fully agree with you here...If we want to take reputation to average upon starting SoA then I suggested to include a reasonable fact (bad publicity, ignominious rumors about charname) else it would be totally inconsistent for people like me who want absolutely play the transition...

[Borsook]

Oh, and one more issue. The moment you will announce the development of the Tutuology, that will stop the development of any mod anyone wanted to do for BG in its tracks until you have Tutuology out, tested, proven and preffered by the player base - because a casual new-generation modder (who is not a programming genious, but a simple WeiDU user) will have neither rules to code by, nor working testing platform. And by the Seldarine, we get little enough mods developed for BG1 nowdays.

Not necessarly, announcing and even beta release of tutu 6 did not stop mods for tutu v4 coming out.