232 replies to this topic

[Hety]

I prefer the BG1-style worldmap. However, changing wordmaps between BG1 and BG2 is not technically feasible without merging SoA and ToB. While a cleaner solution, this would be a joke for compatibility. Bottom line is that anybody who wants a transition MUST have the combined BG1/BG2 map.

Well another option is to make a BG1 style giant map Hope some good soul can make it. Well as soon as someppl(like me %-)) might be more interested in map than in transition it would be better to give them some choice here.

P.S.: as far as i know BGT mostly let names be. It messes with NPC names a bit(imoen iirc and some others), but globally names are the same.

Edited by Hety, 15 January 2006 - 11:11 AM.

[Grim Squeaker]

I prefer the BG1-style worldmap. However, changing wordmaps between BG1 and BG2 is not technically feasible without merging SoA and ToB. While a cleaner solution, this would be a joke for compatibility. Bottom line is that anybody who wants a transition MUST have the combined BG1/BG2 map.

Why? Why can't it just switch just before you go to Chateau Irenicus in the same way it switchs from the SoA map to the ToB one just before you go to the Grove?

[Sir BillyBob]

It doesn't.

Basically, BGT is the SoA game. ToB is still it's own game. Without modifying the engine's code, I don't see how we can swap maps within a game.

[Grim Squeaker]

Fair enough. Cam just told me this as well.

[NiGHTMARE]

I suggested a possible way to replace the worldmap in this thread. I'm afraid I have absolutely no idea if it would actually work, however.

[Bursk]

This may be a slightly unpopular suggestion*, but I'd really like the NoCD patch I'm using for BGII to still work (I really don't know if it would be affected by the BGT/Tutu merger, but I thought I should mention this).


* Because some people always think nocd patch or crack = piracy/terrar!

[Borsook]

This may be a slightly unpopular suggestion*, but I'd really like the NoCD patch I'm using for BGII to still work (I really don't know if it would be affected by the BGT/Tutu merger, but I thought I should mention this).


* Because some people always think nocd patch or crack = piracy/terrar!

There is no problem in using no-cd together with tutu/bgt at this moment...

[Hety]

*Heavy offtopic*
Better(faster, easier) way is to make image of TOB cd and put it into virtual cd-drive. wors like a charm.
*Enuf of it*

Edited by Hety, 15 January 2006 - 03:19 PM.

[Andyr]

walking speed

BG2 walking speed is unfortunate in BG1. If this actually worked properly, it should be core.

BG1 style summoning spells

Should be core. BG1 should have BG1-style summons.

But if the game continued striaght across into BG2, then they'd have continuity errors with the BG2 part of the game--and, for example, I suspect a large number of people wouldn't want BG1 walking speeds so they'd not want to install that part of the 'core' package, and it would seem silly to have a tweak to remove something we'd introduced like that.

I see what you're saying, it looks like there'd be some tricky decisions to make regarding what to make core.

[Ascension64]

On tweaks vs. fixes, this is obviously a hard topic and needs much discussion. I had similar problems with BGT-WeiDU so I am familiar with the difficulty of these logistics. On to the specific features discussed:

Add BG2 kits to joinable NPCs in BG1: Horribly, a tweak...no way this is a fix. However, there are actually existing problems with the stats of the joinable NPCs in original BG1. Why does Quayle have a flail and proficiency in flails when AD&D rules decree that he cannot use it because he has <13 STR? Do you "fix" this, or do you "tweak" it?
Worldmap update: I think game engine limitations say that the BG1 map should merge with the SoA map ONLY IF a transition is present. I introduce the idea of a 'faithful' conversion here (and how 'faithful' a conversion can be is also an important discussion point). In order to be 'faithful', the SoA map would be replaced entirely by the BG1 map. However, since I do not agree that you should have a separate BG2 install to play the SoA portion of the game (which TuTu forces you to do), I don't agree with overwriting the SoA map with the BG1 one.
Map notes: Really, this is a tweak. It is very simple to add using the ADD_MAP_NOTE function in WeiDU. This is not a fix because it isn't like BG1 map notes are broken when you use the areas in SoA. It is because map notes didn't exist in that game. So, tweak for me.
Journal entries and titles: This is a fix. Having direct BG1 journal entries in SoA produces spacing errors in the journal. This is a problem, and thus needs fixing in my opinion. Whether you divide the entries into QUEST, DONE QUEST, JOURNAL, INFO, USER, could be considered a tweak, but considering that the only way to do this is to either perform cumbersome and limited hex offset patching of DLG files, or recompiling every single D file with journal entries, I would vote sorting journal entries as a fix, not a tweak.
BG1->BG2 transition: This isn't existing as part of any game of the BG Trilogy. Tweak.
Summons rebalancing and BG1-style summons, Walking speed, Hooded avatars: This depends on how 'traditional' one should get. It may be more faithful to include these in the core installation, but I do not believe that this is practical. As I do not support the notion of having two installs - one to play the BGT/TuTu merger, and one to play SoA/ToB - it really is stupid to make a mod to 'restore' BG2-style summons, walking speed, and hooded avatars when it was originally overwritten in the first place. Although you can make these components optional, there is, as was mentioned, the possibility of 'cross-contaminating' into the SoA/ToB portion of the game. One way around this could be to patch only BG1 resources, therefore actually making use of the prefix, but I don't this would work for the summons or the avatars. On the 'faithful' conversion topic, we also should question what is meant by 'Play BG1 using the BG2 engine'. I particularly point to the word USING. If the BG2 engine has faster (or slower, whatever it is) walking speeds by default, is changing the speed back to the BG1 engine style really USING the BG2 engine? Is changing the summons to BG1 style USING the BG2 engine? Where do we draw the line between what is BG2 ENGINE and what is not BG2 ENGINE?

On optional components, and I quote Borsook, "I'd say that as long as the player is asked whether or not to install something it doesn't really matter where it is included." I don't agree that this is the issue. I believe that the problem is making sure that the core installation is distributed as updates as few times as possible. This ensures that users don't have to re-install from scratch when a new version of the core component is released because an optional component was updated. Sure, the core component can always have bugs and needs fixing up, but including optional extras increases the likelihood that the entire core package be re-distributed, which forces people to re-install. I'd rather the optional components be separate so that no installation from scratch is required. Although you can't really go that far, I liken this to forcing someone to re-install BG2 because you released a new version of BG2 (not patch-wise, but entire game-wise).

On renaming resources, I think that something like a '_' prefix COULD be added to the resource names to make it easy to distinguish BG1 resources from SoA resources, but I really do not like the way how resources like MTOWBASN, FTOWBASN, are handled (i.e. crazy things like _28_OWBA, or whatever it is). It simply isn't clear what resources they were originally without comparing the CRE colours! Some other non-CRE resources follow the same line of naming which is awful. For areas, I think the BGT-WeiDU naming system sucks, and the FW#### is the way to go to preserve the BG1 numbers. Similary, the area scripts should correspondingly be named FW####.BCS and not _AR####.BCS.

On spawns, TuTu spawns are preferable due to the levelled nature. BGT-WeiDU spawns work (I don't know what people mean by 'broken') but statically spawns CREs independent of the level of the player. Therefore, I would support removal of spawn points and their replacement by info/trigger/exit points that basically work like traps to spawn levelled creatures. On the comment that spawns should be totally be removed, I think that is a tweak and could be quite easily done.

On ToB and TotSC requirements, I think it would be more complete to ensure that ToB and TotSC are not required. Having said that, I do agree that not having TotSC could cause a number of installation hassles and thus may be too much of a burden not to include. At the same time, I hope that fixes can avoid using ToB updates to the engine (which I am sure it can), which I think is no problem. I think that TotSC/ToB requirements seem more important to other modifications (Mulgore and Xavia NPCs is all that I can think of at the moment, but the 'Mequel' project may make use of XNEWAREA.2DA that is only available in a ToB installation) than a base conversion like the BGT/TuTu merger. Thus, my current standpoint is to have at least TotSC a requirement. It might be better to start a poll and see what current and potential BGT and TuTu players have before a further decision be made on this point.

My 16 dollars... B)

[Salk]

Ascension64,

Oh that was a nice list!

Let me add this: since everybody more or less agrees that we should have a reputation reset when we start the BG2 portion of the game, I strongly advise you to insert some element in the BG1-BG2 transition which will justify this. Rumors about charname, something that will give bad publicity or something similar in case of high reputation status (which I am pretty sure, covers over 70-80% of the game players) whereas I personally would not modify a low (9 or minus) reputation value and would rather import it to the BG2 part of the game.

[Grim Squeaker]

I agree, good list. My one area of disagreement is the map notes. It's true they weren't in BG1 and we are adding them, but they didn't exist in BG1 to start with so they couldn't have been there. However, all BG2 areas have mapnotes to make it easier for the player to find stuff. If we're trying to make it consistant, we really should add mapnotes to BG1.

[Salk]

I must side with Grim about Map Notes. Although it's innovation, I do believe we are "patching" something that can't alter the original game's spirit and that is a welcome addition to every and each BG1 players. I like to think that Bioware's developers would have added mapnotes in BG1 if they had thought about it sooner...

[Kulyok]

Map notes can be bad since, again, it's an area of (bad) writing.

Since it can be easily patched with Weidu, a small tweak mod adding this can improve the situation nicely. *Forcing* it on players who do not like it, however, isn't nice.

[Grim Squeaker]

Map notes can be bad since, again, it's an area of (bad) writing.

Since it can be easily patched with Weidu, a small tweak mod adding this can improve the situation nicely. *Forcing* it on players who do not like it, however, isn't nice.

To write bad map notes I think you have to either be an ESL (no offense, but occasionally you end up with strange grammatical constructs) or are intentionally trying to make them bad. I mean, most writers would have 'Fred's Smithy' (I forget the name of the smithy in Beregost so I'll call him Fred) instead of 'It's da place with Fred and stuff, like whatever, and he has a hammer and somefink or nuffink, yeah'.

Seriously, if a decent writer, comes up with some names they can be proofread before release so little tweaks can be made.

Edited by Grim Squeaker, 16 January 2006 - 12:14 AM.

[Hety]

Well there is a sign at every point of interest. "Thunderhammer Smithy" is written just next to the door So copy& paste ftw.

[Kulyok]

To write bad map notes I think you have to either be an ESL (no offense, but occasionally you end up with strange grammatical constructs) or are intentionally trying to make them bad. I mean, most writers would have 'Fred's Smithy' (I forget the name of the smithy in Beregost so I'll call him Fred) instead of 'It's da place with Fred and stuff, like whatever, and he has a hammer and somefink or nuffink, yeah'.

Seriously, if a decent writer, comes up with some names they can be proofread before release so little tweaks can be made.

Oh, it's okay, I know I suck. But I just can't see a "decent writer" for everybody. When it comes to any additional writing in the core component, "make it optional or do not include it at all" is what I will always say. And, yeah, it's important.

Also, don't forget that we BG1 purists want to play BGT/TUTU conversion, too.

[Grim Squeaker]

Also, don't forget that we BG1 purists want to play BGT/TUTU conversion, too.

And they'll get as pure a conversion to the BG2 engine as we can give. However, part of the BG2 engine is map notes. So giving a full conversion to the BG2 engine, you do kind of expect them.

[Kulyok]

And they'll get as pure a conversion to the BG2 engine as we can give. However, part of the BG2 engine is map notes. So giving a full conversion to the BG2 engine, you do kind of expect them.

You are probably right. I'm just afraid small changes will add up, and it will eventually lead to something unpleasant, like naming wilderness areas in BG1, or giving an elaborate map note to a random house some mod is using as a Very Sekrit Meeting Place. Naming Thunderhammer Smithy a "Thunderhammer Smithy" is all right, I guess.