83 replies to this topic

[SimDing0]

but it *can't* be an optional install.

Why.

[Borsook]

but it *can't* be an optional install.

Why.

Great. I was really worried I am the only one baffled by this...

[SimDing0]

And incidentally, the following options should be available at install-time.
- No transition. The mod would behave as Tutu does now.
- Minimal transition. The transition would consist purely of the BG2 introductory movie, with no extra content at all.
- Extended transition. Whether it's the current BGT one or Ascension's new mod, this is the one with the cutscenes and stuff.

There's really no reason this should need debating.

Anyone who wants to write their own transition can by all means do so, but centralizing some in the core package allows a certain degree of quality control over "official" ones.

[kharan5876]

I like that idea, I am assuming the minimal transition transfers characters and everything right after killing Sarevok?

Edited by kharan5876, 15 January 2006 - 10:03 AM.

[Grim Squeaker]

I like that idea, I am assuming the minimal transition transfers characters and everything right after killing Sarevok?

Well, I think it'd be the equivalent of exporting your character at the end and importing him in a new game of BG2. So, Sarevok's dies, cutscene, BG2 starting cutscene, Chateau Irenicus.

[SimDing0]

Right. But it'd retain global variables and stuff.

[kharan5876]

So then npc transitions would not occur?

[Andyr]

I was hoping if people could clarify what they mean by transition: I would suggest Sim's terminology to be the least confusing one to use.

Otherwise, for example, when people say "a transition should be mandatory" it is confusing whether they mean the "minimal transition" Sim mentions, or the BGT extended one.

With regards to NPCs--I am not sure what I think would be best, but if there were one merged BGT/Tutu package it might make it better for modders to create transition mods for individual NPCs, if they are so inclined.

[Grim Squeaker]

Agreed. If the default is just to carry variables, but not actually alter dialogue and stuff, thats a good bottom line. Then if say, Cliffette wanted to modify her Shar-Teel mod so it took into account the events that may or may not have happened in BG1, that could be installed on top.

[Kulyok]

How are the variables going to be carried, by the way? Is it something elaborate with Player1's script, or can I just check them in-game: "Global("Variable","GLOBAL",Value)"?

[Grim Squeaker]

How are the variables going to be carried, by the way? Is it something elaborate with Player1's script, or can I just check them in-game: "Global("Variable","GLOBAL",Value)"?

Well, if it's just treating it as one big game, yeah just check it normally. There was an idea a while back to transport variables between Tutu and BG2 by storing them as locals on Player1, but thats not necessery if everything is gonna be in one game.

[Kulyok]

Thank you.

[seanas]

Oh, I'm probably just very stupid... but please tell me why? Nobody even suggests that the transition should not be in the merger, but what's the problem with it being an option? Why are you bothered by the fact that people who are sure they'll never use it won't install it?

because i dont want to dealing users' error reports several years from now that eventually resolve into 'i didnt install optional component x'. at the moment, the transition is small, seamless, and entirely optional - you get a final save if you wish to start a new BG2 game with new NPCs (with their BG2 stats) and with CHARNAME reduced to 89000 XP. it's optional in the same way that wielding azuredge or doing the windspear hills quest are optional - you dont get to choose not to install these, but there's no necessity to actually play them unless you want to.

i do not see the utility in creating future erroneous bug reports to satisfy BG1 (or BG2) purists. the total size of the transition, post install, is less than 500Kb - on an install that's well north of 5GB, so is entirely negligible. the transition gameplay is optional, as i've described; just because the gameplay is optional, does not mean the transition install needs be. so no thank-you: i dont see the merit of a design decision that builds in future user errors - not when the current install doesn't build in this error.

[Borsook]

fair enough.

[SimDing0]

you get a final save if you wish to start a new BG2 game with new NPCs (with their BG2 stats) and with CHARNAME reduced to 89000 XP

Aside from the usual justification of it being possible to ignore or skip content the player doesn't like, which is bad enough in itself, relying on exporting characters is frankly an appalling excuse for "optional".

If I put Mang0's Hip Hop Mod as the transition, would you continue to advocate its inclusion on the basis that exporting lets you skip it? I certainly wouldn't.

[Borsook]

the good news seems to be that currently the transition seems to be the only "hot" issue between both (tutu and bgt) parties... so maybe we will see the merge in the end This is great... I remember a time when I asked why not merge the two projects and nobody seemed to see the benefit. So let's push on! B)

[Ascension64]

I do not support any transition in the core component. As much as I appreciate seanas' point, I do not believe that new things should be there for the user if the user would like to use it, no matter how small it may be. It is fine to say that the transition is optional, and if the user doesn't like, just export their character during the final battle with Sarevok, but why can't you say the same for every single optional component out there? If you were to include the optional transition as a custom in the core component, then you are really agreeing to the addition of other customs as optional in the core component. There is no difference between the transition and another custom mod. Why the transition and not others? Transition and 'the others' are both new content. I draw an analogy to collecting all the junk you can acquire and storing them in the garage 'until it is useful', if it ever becomes useful. 500KB or less, the transition is one such piece of 'junk', if you like. Condoning the inclusion of a transition condones inclusion of other custom components, something I would not like to see. I explain my stance on optional components in Cam's Wishlist thread.

In summary, I do not want to see the transition as part of the core component at all.

You mean it not being obligatory or more alternative transitions appearing? Anyway I don't see how a choice (or more choices) can be a bad thing.

I meant alternative transitions in this matter. I guess this stance is a personal preference of mine. Of course, if I manage to f*** up my 'Mequel' project like squashed pie, then alternative choices could certainly be good. As a general rule, I don't touch bad mods as soon as I find out a mod is bad, although bad is a subjective vice.

[grogerson]

I've been watching this thread, and I've noted some developments over the last few years. Some good, some bad.

Sad to say, I still see some of the hostility from both camps. However, I've also noticed it's not a vitriolic as before, which is good. Any merger will require some adjustment from both sides, since neither side will get everything they want.

I play BGT because it's making two games into one continuous story (transition, however shaky, included). I started with BP-BGT (old method), but much prefer Ascension's work. I don't care for super-modding. To me, the mods will add color to each new playing, without overloading my PC, my mind, and my time. There are good mods on both side (and some not-so-good), but as it stands now I can only play one side with few exceptions (also thanks to Ascension and his converter).

The biggest benefit of a merger would be access to the full set of mods on both side, and a common modding language. Those who think WeiDU is not as versitile as the several languages of TUTU, please remember that it's full potential has yet to be reached and the various creative minds out there may just suprise us all at what it (and they) can do.

Any merger may be years in the future, but who knows...

My two cents...

[Salk]

My simple question is this...

If, like I hope, both parties will agree (and I trust their intelligence to work flawlessly) about starting this new, revolutionary project then would there be any reasons left for working on updating TuTu and BGT-WeiDu ?

Although it's true that a first public version might not see the light of the day for several months (but I do not think so many, feeling the enthusiasm animating some people), wouldn't it be better to just concentrate on the merger ?