83 replies to this topic

[BlueCross]

kharan5876, on Jan 11 2006, 08:08 PM, said:

perhaps the other weidu mods could be altered so bgt-tutu can be installed first.

Well, this is the part I don't fully understand. The earlier explanation was the difference was basically only the implementation method. What is the gain when you install both?

[seanas]

BlueCross, on Jan 11 2006, 09:13 PM, said:

kharan5876, on Jan 11 2006, 08:08 PM, said:

perhaps the other weidu mods could be altered so bgt-tutu can be installed first.

Well, this is the part I don't fully understand. The earlier explanation was the difference was basically only the implementation method. What is the gain when you install both?

a slight misunderstanding: kharan is referring to an (as yet undeveloped) merged BGT-Tutu; not installing both BGT and Tutu.

on the differences between BGT and Tutu, based on my recent installations: my preferred BGT combination takes more HDD space to install than my preferred Tutu combination does (both take about the same amount of HDD space once install is completed, however); my preferred BGT combo runs faster than my preferred Tutu combo, as the new BGT biffs the override folder after installation.

[melkor_morgoth75]

I have just a simple question: WHY Tutu and BGT should be merged?

my 2 cents,

mm75

[Ascension64]

melkor_morgoth75, on Jan 13 2006, 10:22 PM, said:

I have just a simple question: WHY Tutu and BGT should be merged?

my 2 cents,

mm75

It is nonsense competing. Mod availability suffers. The end result is spending about twice as much time working on one thing when that could be spent making new mods and other new material. Businesses compete because they want money; lucrative as they are. I am not sadistic as to compete in a hobby for egotistical purposes. I'm not sure about the others, so I'll let them have their say.

[Salk]

Why should BGT-WeiDu and TuTu merge ?

I would say it's so obvious that I wonder why such a question could even arise...
Of course they should merge because they together can create something better by taking the best from each of the two programs.

This would save lots of time, would mean to coordinate the efforts of talented people whom are now split to work on two different project which, despite the subtle difference, aim to the same goal.

Not to say about the unified support...

I am instead wondering why they should NOT merge and find it hard to get to a reasonable answer...

Edited by Salk, 13 January 2006 - 07:13 AM.

[melkor_morgoth75]

Salk, on Jan 13 2006, 04:02 PM, said:

Why should BGT-WeiDu and TuTu merge ?

I would say it's so obvious that I wonder why such a question could even arise...

It has been arised instead ...

Frankly speaking i don't understand why (while i can understand ascension point, use that time to create other stuff).

The only reason would be to have JUST one possibility to play BG from the very beginning to the end (and not two like actually).

Maybe i'm wrong, but i don't think their aim is so different, so the only reason i see is to use just one tool (BGTu let's call (half and a half ;-) and from it create any mod (so that none has to lose time for compatibilty reasons).

just my 2 cents,

mm75

[NiGHTMARE]

It might be an idea if the BGT developers and Tutu developers got together and, with the added input of the modders and players, compiled a list of advantages and disadvantages of each. Otherwise, we may end up with a merger that combines the bad parts, rather than the good ones .

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 13 January 2006 - 03:36 PM.

[kharan5876]

Could make a lot of those kinds of things optional. Could also have a default set of components for BGT style and for Tutu style. Advanced users can set all the components themselves. Not sure if thats possible in weidu. Could you have a bat file for the 2 default install settings that runs weidu and selects all the components automaticly?

Just some ideas to throw into the pot.

Edited by kharan5876, 13 January 2006 - 07:38 PM.

[Kulyok]

I think that as long as the transition part from BG1 to BG2 is _optional_ (story reasons), it is an excellent, excellent idea. Um, and not changing chapter globals. (The reason why I don't want TUTU 6.)

All I want, as a player, is to have all mods created for TUTU AND all mods created for BG1-BGT available and compatible. All this "A mod for TUTU", "A BGT version" "Does it work with BGT?" "Hey, this mod is for TUTU/BGT only, but I want to play a BGT/TUTU version!" is a massive pain.

[SimDing0]

Kulyok, on Jan 14 2006, 08:04 AM, said:

Um, and not changing chapter globals.

There is no disadvantage.

[Kulyok]

Quote

There is no disadvantage.

It requires re-writing all mods which use Chapter Global, (and simple Find/Replace won't work here), and possibly keeping two versions, since many use and will be using TUTU 4, and the promised conversion is not going to happen very soon.

I do think there'd be a massive outcry, if the same was attempted in BG2, i.e. Tutorial was made Chapter1, and subsequent chapter numbers were incremented by 1.

Also, I think that basically, it is "assuming too much". I do not enjoy the fact that a simple conversion *changes game* in such a drastic way. It's the same as with Dudleyfixes: bugfixes are one thing, tweaks and optimizing is the other. And since it cannot be made optional, I would prefer that Chapter Globals are left as they are.

[SimDing0]

Kulyok, on Jan 14 2006, 03:54 PM, said:

It requires re-writing all mods which use Chapter Global, (and simple Find/Replace won't work here),

1) How many mods can you name?
2) The replacement work is minimal.

Quote

and possibly keeping two versions, since many use and will be using TUTU 4, and the promised conversion is not going to happen very soon.

Tutu 4 will no longer be supported when a new non-beta release comes out, whatever form it takes. Tough luck to anyone who wants to continue using it-- I'm sure they'll get on great with bugged spawns and whatever crashing bugs are still around.

Quote

I do think there'd be a massive outcry, if the same was attempted in BG2, i.e. Tutorial was made Chapter1, and subsequent chapter numbers were incremented by 1.

The chapter numbers in BG2 are not bugged.

Quote

Also, I think that basically, it is "assuming too much". I do not enjoy the fact that a simple conversion *changes game* in such a drastic way.

This is utter nonsense. It changes the game in no visible way whatsoever. The argument is akin to suggesting that renaming the areas from AR to _AR is too drastic a change.

[CamDawg]

Kulyok, on Jan 14 2006, 10:54 AM, said:

It requires re-writing all mods which use Chapter Global, (and simple Find/Replace won't work here), and possibly keeping two versions, since many use and will be using TUTU 4, and the promised conversion is not going to happen very soon.

Given that ConTEXT can search-and-replace regular expressions across multiple files, it is a fairly trivial change. What isn't trivial is having to support two versions, one in which chapter globals are incremented and another where they aren't.

As a proof of concept, I incremented chapter globals in BG1 NPC v11 this morning as an exercise. It took 15 minutes, most of which was loading the files.

Kulyok, on Jan 14 2006, 10:54 AM, said:

Also, I think that basically, it is "assuming too much". I do not enjoy the fact that a simple conversion *changes game* in such a drastic way. It's the same as with Dudleyfixes: bugfixes are one thing, tweaks and optimizing is the other. And since it cannot be made optional, I would prefer that Chapter Globals are left as they are.

You don't get journal entries from the prologue unless chapter globals get incremented. The two options are either:

• Exclude original content (prologue journal entries) for modder benefit
  
• Improve player experience and have a truer conversion at the expense of a one-time outlay of modder time

[Kulyok]

Quote

You don't get journal entries from the prologue unless chapter globals get incremented. The two options are either:

Exclude original content (prologue journal entries) for modder benefit
Improve player experience and have a truer conversion at the expense of a one-time outlay of modder time

But what about turning Prologue Chapter Global to 666, for example? Or establish another value? Will it make Journal Entries work?


Also, the problem of two downloads still remains.

[Andyr]

There's no page 666 in the Journal so that wouldn't help...

I think incrementing chapter globals isn't really a problem.

[CamDawg]

Kulyok, on Jan 14 2006, 01:03 PM, said:

But what about turning Prologue Chapter Global to 666, for example? Or establish another value? Will it make Journal Entries work?

It would, but the game changes chapters via IncrementGlobal calls, so now we have prologue = 666, old chapter 1 is 667, etc. You end up running the same search-and-replace routines.

Kulyok, on Jan 14 2006, 01:03 PM, said:

Also, the problem of two downloads still remains.

What two download problem? The whole point of this exercise is to combine BGT-Tutu so that there will be one download for every mod, with no need for branching and detection routines or duplicate files. If we make incremented chapter globals optional, then yes, we will continue to have a multiple download problem.

[Kulyok]

Mmm. But what if Prologue becomes Chapter 1, as well as in BG2? Then, slight patching of AR2600.bcs(FW2600.bcs) and CH1CUT04.bcs will do the job. Both Prologue and Chapter 1 have the Chapter Global set to 1.

(Do excuse me if I sound silly; I realise that I am not the most competent person around, but I honestly want it to be as nice, convenient and pretty as possible.)

[CamDawg]

I may be mistaken, but I believe prologue and chapter one need to stay disparate for the chapter info screen to appear. That being said, we're now venturing into the world of personal preference--even if this is possible, I personally prefer chapter one and prologue journal entries remain separate.

I believe BGT has used the prologue = chapter 1 convention since its inception, though it also goes a bit wacky and forces TotSC events into chapters 8+ (as it forces TotSC events to occur after the traditional BG ending).

[Sir BillyBob]

Quote

1) How many mods can you name?

DSotSC, SoBH, and I think BG1NPC.

Changing DSotSC and SoBH isn't a big deal. I can have the script check to see if the correct Boss is dead vs checking the Chapter. Players have already noticed the SoBH isn't triggering correctly in Tutu 6 because I check to see which chapter you are in before making quest givers appear. I do not know if BG1NPC's chapter checking was based on Tutu6 or Tutu4. Perhaps both since some parts of the mod are older than others.

[CamDawg]

BG1NPC chapter checks are based on Tutu v4 but, as I mentioned, I converted the chapter checks in under 15 minutes.