85 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

I'm sure I spotted it first though, as it was my default female avatar since I learned abut BG2 custom portraits

Hehh, life is mean... prepare to see your ex-girlfriend as crazy lamb obsessed elven assassin ! (no offense of course... )

[aVENGER]

LoL! I guess everyone's definition of true evil varies

BTW, I think I've found an adequate portrait substitute...but I won't post it untill v3.00 is out

[T.G.Maestro]

I think I've found an adequate portrait substitute...but I won't post it untill v3.00 is out

Just to eventually find out that it is already used by Grombula the chaotic good half-orc Pig-farmer MOD...

[aVENGER]

Nah, I picked two pretty obscure portraits now. I haven't seen them anywhere besides the site where I got them.

BTW, about Bodhi and the Chosens...when I said they were no usual thieves, I meant that the CoC characters are a well trained and experienced (high level) adventuring party with many powerful items at their disposal and a devious and scheming leader. I'm pretty sure that three cunning Thieves, a Sorceress, and a Priest of Cyric and a relatively bright Barbarian could think of some way to take the Lanthorn from the bloodsuckers. Also, Bodhi is only as powerful as she is because Bioware made her character that way. And just in case all else failed, as a last resort, the Chosens could always walk right into her lair with just 6 Prot. From Undead scrolls or use some similarly cheesy approach

[T.G.Maestro]

I'm pretty sure that three cunning Thieves, a Sorceress, and a Priest of Cyric and a relatively bright Barbarian could think of some way to take the Lanthorn from the bloodsuckers.

If you would have a party like that, what would you try to get that Lanthorn without alarming the Vampires? Remember, Bodhi has no idea about the theft, and she is truly a superhuman being with an INT score higher than 20 and dozens of various undead creatures at her disposal.

Also, Bodhi is only as powerful as she is because Bioware made her character that way.

Better give this credit to Wes Weimer, he is the man that made this bloodsucker an (almost) unstoppable killing-machine..

Anyway, I'm just keeping this up...

[aVENGER]

If you would have a party like that, what would you try to get that Lanthorn without alarming the Vampires?

Perhaps they wanted to save their strenght for teh PC and his group.

Remember, Bodhi has no idea about the theft, and she is truly a superhuman being with an INT score higher than 20 and dozens of various undead creatures at her disposal.

Well, Kerrith, the evil priest of the group, could have gained control over a few of her undead minions and forced them to make the switch at some point. In short, the possibilities are endless, though I'll admit that I haven't really intended it that be that much in depth.

Better give this credit to Wes Weimer, he is the man that made this bloodsucker an (almost) unstoppable killing-machine.

Hmm, never tried that mod personally, but I've heard quite a few tales about it...from the few survivors that made it alive.

[T.G.Maestro]

If you'll ever play BG2 again, definetly try out Improved Bodhi (with Solaufein in the party, if possible)! Nooow...thats the pain!

A true challange to the Improved Shadow Thieves that came to your aid in the dungeons... B)

[T.G.Maestro]

One thing I've noticed:
In one of the earlier versions of your mod, you increased the damage score of Bounty Hunter traps significantly as one levels up (up to 16D6 if I'm correct). Now, I say this is a terrible thing to do for two reasons.
1.: they shouldn't get normal (innate) abilities as powerful as a HLA ability. This will make the HLA Spike Trap (20D6) almost useless - who would waste a point in ST if dozen ALMOST equally powerful traps are already available.
2.: aVENGER, please keep in mind, that Bounty Hunters are not a kit for KILLING enemies, they are for capturing them or make them unable to fight. And I truly don't think that a 16D6 trap is for "capturing" anyone... . There is a thief kit for KILLING enemies: the Assassin. And as I know, Assassins Poison Weapon ability won't get better as one levels up. Not to forget the additional Tranquilizing Shot ability to BHs, which is a great help in battle. All this makes the BH a perfect assassin: he can stun/capture/kill/backstab opponents with ease, while the (normally deadly) Assassin will s*ck hard with PW/higher backstab/and NOTHING . I say leave BH traps as they are, better think on additional traps as HLAs.

So please, think on this and change those trap damage in the next edition of the mod.

[aVENGER]

In one of the earlier versions of your mod, you increased the damage score of Bounty Hunter traps significantly as one levels up (up to 16D6 if I'm correct). Now, I say this is a terrible thing to do for two reasons.

Well, I originally had some completely different plans for the BH Special Snares (as can be seen in my earlier posts in this very thread) but lastly, i opted for the increased damage.

1.: they shouldn't get normal (innate) abilities as powerful as a HLA ability. This will make the HLA Spike Trap (20D6) almost useless - who would waste a point in ST if dozen ALMOST equally powerful traps are already available

Consider that my snares don't get that powerful until level 40, their damage increases gradually for example they are only 8d6 at level 21. Here's a small table for a clearer comparison: (also note the emphasis on the levels)

Regular Thief Snares at level 21: (SPCL411)

• 3d8 x 5(missile) + 1d6 x 20(piercing) = 35-240 damage (no save)...bug!?
  
  
• Slays target of the Fighter class (save vs death at +4 to avoid)

compared to:

My Improved BH Snares at level 21: (SPCL415)

• 8d6(missile) x1 = 8-48 damage (no save)
  
  
• Mazes target (no save)

which rise up to:

My Improved BH Snares at level 40: (SPCL415)

• 16d6(missile) x1 = 16-96 damage (no save)
  
  
• Mazes target (no save)

and they can be compared to:

Spike Trap at level 23: (SPCL910B)

• 20d6(missile) x1 = 20-120 damage (no save)

aVENGER, please keep in mind, that Bounty Hunters are not a kit for KILLING enemies, they are for capturing them or make them unable to fight.

That would be a valid argument...if capturing or permanently disabling enemies was a viable option in BG2. Sadly, it's not.

So please, think on this and change those trap damage in the next edition of the mod.

*cowers ears and starts chanting*

Lalalala...I can't hear you...lalala...what's a mod?...lalala

*runs off to play more ToEE*
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Heh, now seriously, I don't think I'll be revising the BH or the other kits anytime soon (too stressing) and I definitively won't do much work on my mod in the next week or so. I do wish I knew how to mod ToEE though, as it's currently full of annoying (though not many gamestoping) bugs.

[T.G.Maestro]

now seriously, I don't think I'll be revising the BH or the other kits anytime soon (too stressing) and I definitively won't do much work on my mod in the next week or so

Well, this is a STRONG point, but still, I'll throw in my thoughts, just for fun then...

Well, I originally had some completely different plans for the BH Special Snares

And this is something I wish to complete in my revision - a new set of traps for the thief class/kits. Right now, I'm facing several difficulties in this effort (see Help forum topics), but I'll try nonetheless.

they are only 8d6 at level 21

And thieves can reach lvl 21 in later-mid SoA. With some mods installed, of course.

Regular Thief Snares at level 21: (SPCL411)


3d8 x 5(missile) + 1d6 x 20(piercing) = 35-240 damage (no save)...bug!?

Slays target of the Fighter class (save vs death at +4 to avoid)

Umm..this seems interesting.. spcl411 at lvl.21 looks a bit different in my game:
-slays fighters (save vs. death at 0)
-3D8+5 missile damage (no save)
-20 poison damage (no save)
This counts as 28-49 damage in total. Where did you get those parameters??
Instead of increasing BHs trap damage to such values, it would be more interesting to use those negative effects cumulative in all BH traps. Slow + damage first (lvl1), later damage +Paralyzing for ...seconds THEN slow for ...seconds(lvl16), at level 21: damage and Maze first, then Paralysation, then slow. I hope you understand this babble

That would be a valid argument...if capturing or permanently disabling enemies was a viable option in BG2. Sadly, it's not

But making them stunned, slowed and mazed IS a considerable bonus.

*runs off to play more ToEE*

Just the thing I WOULD like to do... if I had ToEE in my hands.. but it is on its way now!

[T.G.Maestro]

Ahh, I've found out how you got those amazing scores for Set Trap
The damage parameters are:
3D8 +5, instead of 3D8 x5;
0D6 +20, instead of 1D6 x20.
I guess you confused those values a bit.

And if you take a look at things after this has been corrected, it is obvious that the new BH traps are WAY overpowered compared to the normal thief traps. And once again: a BH is NOT a "killer" kit, it is a tactical supporting kit and should be left as it is (giving them T.Shot is OK). At least this is my opinion.

[aVENGER]

And thieves can reach lvl 21 in later-mid SoA. With some mods installed, of course.

Well, the Improved BH Snares are just 8d6 at that level which is still a bit less than the regular Thief Snares. They do Maze the target though, but they definitively don't have the poison damage or the slaying effect of the regular ones. Which reminds me...

Umm..this seems interesting.. spcl411 at lvl.21 looks a bit different in my game:
-slays fighters (save vs. death at 0)
-3D8+5 missile damage (no save)
-20 poison damage (no save)
This counts as 28-49 damage in total. Where did you get those parameters??

Heh, well I got them straight from IEEP, but it seams that either my spell description database is screwed (I experimented a bit with it) or I misinterpreted its display (that's why I wondered if it was a bug) or possibly both Either way, the latest version of Near Infinity confirmed your values, except for the save vs death which still has a +4 bonus for me.

And if you take a look at things after this has been corrected, it is obvious that the new BH traps are WAY overpowered compared to the normal thief traps

No they are not, at least not on level 21. A regular Thief Snare deals 28-49 damage and has a chance of slaying a Fighter class enemy. The BH Snare deals 8-48 damage and mazes the enemy. That's pretty close IMO.

And once again: a BH is NOT a "killer" kit, it is a tactical supporting kit and should be left as it is (giving them T.Shot is OK). At least this is my opinion.

And I already said that I agree on that one, but it was Bioware who choose to turn him into a trap setting machine, probably because BG2 has so much lethal combat. I decided to follow their lead in lack of an official guide (the BH kit has no notable special abilities in PnP except being able to use any weapon).

Instead of increasing BHs trap damage to such values, it would be more interesting to use those negative effects cumulative in all BH traps. Slow + damage first (lvl1), later damage +Paralyzing for ...seconds THEN slow for ...seconds(lvl16), at level 21: damage and Maze first, then Paralysation, then slow. I hope you understand this babble 

So you want to make the different effects act after each other i.e. when Stun expires Slow kicks in afterwards, am I right ? Granted, that sounds interesting, but I see a few problems here:

1) How are you going to base the post Maze effect timer? IIRC, the Maze duration varies greatly with the targets' INT which could make it extremely difficult.

2) Too many stacking effects could extend the duration of one trap over several Turns, which could be a bit too much for using a single ability, even without the extra damage, unless you add a saving throw or a MR check.

3) Saving throws, if you do plan use them it could become a real pain to synchronize all of the timers.

But making them stunned, slowed and mazed IS a considerable bonus.

Perhaps, but in the long term, it just delays the inevitable...their deaths.

Just the thing I WOULD like to do... if I had ToEE in my hands.. but it is on its way now!

Heh, good luck with the bugs! By some unexplainable whim of good fortune I seam to be almost unaffected by the CTD's and similar serious issues. I did experience one larger bug which still prevents me from returning to a certain village, but that's about it. Of course, there's still a plethora of minor annoyance bugs like not being able to craft certain items because of improper spell requirements, spells not working correctly or never expiring, certain feats not working as they should...etc. But all in all, I'm really enjoying the game despite it's flaws. Still, I can't wait for the patch! B)

[T.G.Maestro]

No they are not, at least not on level 21. A regular Thief Snare deals 28-49 damage and has a chance of slaying a Fighter class enemy. The BH Snare deals 8-48 damage and mazes the enemy. That's pretty close IMO.

Agreed. But still, the end damage value at lvl 40 is high. Too high for a trap that aims to take creatures out of combat without killing them. And no matter what we are saying, BHs aren't meant to be killers, there are assassins for that purpose. I only suggest that we (and you of course ) should stick to those conceptions.

And I already said that I agree on that one, but it was Bioware who choose to turn him into a trap setting machine, probably because BG2 has so much lethal combat. I decided to follow their lead in lack of an official guide (the BH kit has no notable special abilities in PnP except being able to use any weapon).

Agreed again, but there is your addition, the T.Shot. A great add-on, I must say.

So you want to make the different effects act after each other i.e. when Stun expires Slow kicks in afterwards

Yes, that is my goal. About Maze: I think I will change that to something else (see one of your comments on this one - it cannot be dealt with, since its duration depends on the victims INT score). Another solution is to start the Paralysation effect very soon after the Maze, so it will still last after one escapes the Maze. The other effects will follow each other however. All the effects will have a reduced duration (2-5 round) and some of them will require saving throws. The timers can by synched by creating each effect as a "new" spell (this will take care of 'duration') that kicks in ('cast spell') after the first one expires (this one can be done by the 'delayed' parameter).

I have a new question however: I would like to create a Toxin Trap for thieves as a HLA, but I'm facing a problem I cannot come over with. I would like to use the original Exploding Trap animation, but change the explosions color to green, and add a short cloud effect (like Stinking Cloud) after the trap hes been activated. The problem is that I cannot change the spell animation, sonce I cannot identify 2Unknown value of 269" (or something like that ). This is the animation the trap is using. Could you help me in this one? Any ideas how to implement this effect?

[Littiz]

And once again: a BH is NOT a "killer" kit, it is a tactical supporting kit and should be left as it is

I'm wanted... wanted.. DEAD or ALIVE...
Ach, I'm growing old

[aVENGER]

I have a new question however: I would like to create a Toxin Trap for thieves as a HLA, but I'm facing a problem I cannot come over with. I would like to use the original Exploding Trap animation, but change the explosions color to green, and add a short cloud effect (like Stinking Cloud) after the trap hes been activated. The problem is that I cannot change the spell animation, sonce I cannot identify 2Unknown value of 269" (or something like that  ). This is the animation the trap is using. Could you help me in this one? Any ideas how to implement this effect?

Hmm, I'm not 100% sure, but I think that (in order to change the color of the explosion) you have to edit the spell's projectile file and/or the BAM which it uses, or you could try to create completely new ones from scratch.

[T.G.Maestro]

Ehem...I'm still eagerly waiting for those files aVENGER...
By the way, ToEE is truly nice, though it seems somewhat a step-back when compared to BG2's user-friendly gameplay. Sometimes it can be quite annoying, but it is still a shining star .

[aVENGER]

Well, since I've finished my second run through ToEE this weekend, I've found some time to do some playtesting, balancing, bughunting and overall tweaking of my mods as well as updating the readme documentation, the webpage and the installer. At the same time, I'm still working on some cutscenes and updating a few dialogue scripts as well. By my estimate, it should all be done in a week or so.


As for ToEE, I found it to be a very different experience from BG2, in both positive and negative manner. Surely, it lacks the epic story of the BG saga, but that's mainly because the game is directly based on an old 'Gygax-era' PnP module, and that means hack&slash galore. Then again, the game excels in that particular aspect, the combat is so much more detailed and tactical than in the IE games. True turned based mode really makes a difference here, as it opens up many new tactical possibilities like trip attacks, flanking, charging, evasive maneuvering, defensive casting/fighting, AOOs and action interrupting...etc. Such aspects make you really think and plan out the battles which in term makes them much more fun than the boring BG2 high level mage combat IMO (True Sight -> Ruby Ray -> Breach -> repeat x100...bleh). Now, if only Troika would fix those annoying bugs...

[T.G.Maestro]

They will. The patch will be out for download in a month or so.

[aVENGER]

v3.0 progress report:

Due to some RL interferences (and ToEE of course!) I am progressing a bit slower than expected. Nonetheless, I've managed to finish & playtest the new HLA section, update some AI scripts, finish most cutscenes, script, compile and test about 400 code lines of the CoC dialogue and update my TP2. I've also updated and overhauled the readmes (they should look much more comprehensive now) and prepared the website.

What is left is to finish the remaining dialogue (and see if I can add the multi-character interactions or not) and to finish a few cutscenes and finalize the CoC hints section (on dealing with Venduris by using diplomacy, intimidation and insight) and to upload everything of course. Anyway, my current ETA for v3.0 is next Friday!

BTW, Littz my fellow coder, you'll be happy to know that I've got the hang of SET_2DA_ENTRY and it's now working just dandy on both WEAPPROF.2DA and LUABBR.2DA

T.G. my fellow modder, you'll probably be happy to hear that I've played with a new experimental concept for the BH special snares by following your advice. It's still unfinished, as I haven't had the time to test it thoroughly, but I thought I'd put it up for you to check out anyway:



Re-re-revised BH Special Snares:

- The Bounty Hunter can lay special traps (other than the ones that all thieves receive). These traps are more powerful than the typical thief trap, but are primarily used for disabling and incapacitating foes, rather than killing them outright. Their effect vary according to level.

1st: the snare deals 3d6+5 damage and Slows the target if a save vs. spells is failed
11th: the snare deals 5d6+5 damage and Entangles the target if a save vs. spells at -1 is failed
16th: the snare deals 7d6+5 damage and Blinds the target if a save vs. spells at -2 is failed
21th: the snare deals 9d6+5 damage and knocks the target unconscious if a save vs. spells at -2 is failed



Currently, it does not improve beyond level 21, though I have considered upping the saving throw penalty at a rate of -1 per ten additional levels (i.e. -3 at lvl 30 and -4 at lvl 40) but that might be overkill. Note that all of the damage dealt by the snares is considered missile damage and that the secondary effects (slow, entangle...) last for three rounds (18 seconds) and ignore any magic resistance. Also, the 'Slow' ability actually uses the 'Grease' overlay and effect (it doesn't reduce the attack rate) to make it look less magical, and that's basically the whole idea behind this revision, so the Blindness ability uses a 'puff of smoke' effect rather than the standard magical blindness/deafness animation as well.

Another balance decision of mine was that the Slow (Grease), Entanglement and Blindness effects also don't reduce the target's AC and/or THAC0 as that could stack if multiple traps were activated at the same time thus potentially turning powerful foes (i.e Dragons) into wimps.

[Littiz]

BTW, Littz my fellow coder, you'll be happy to know that I've got the hang of SET_2DA_ENTRY

Great! But I'm also creating contents you know B)
The Refinements Mod is getting every day cooler than expected!
It'd be a fine thing if we shared completely the Rogue tables. After all our mods have a common finality, it'd be fine to have them work together in any case