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[aVENGER]

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The next mod revision will include a new challanging Chapter 6 battle which is slowly shaping up. It's basically a combat oriented encounter with a band of 'Cyric's Chosen' which consists of a 6 character party, of which every member has 2950000 exp (old SoA maximum). While this encounter is mostly combat- focused you WILL get some pretty interesting dialogue options and choices depending on your class, race, alignment and ability scores (think PST style).

The characters listed below were created as normal BG2 PCs, with regular THAC0, HP, spells, saves and resistances and then converted to .cre format. I dislike 'cheesy' tactics, so there will be no 'ForcedSpells' in their AI, except to emulate the 2 contingencies and spell triggers which my mages will use. Don't worry, these contingencies and triggers are nothing like those of the infamous Bioware high level Mages/Liches. My contingencies/triggers consist ONLY of spells which the player of the same level could use.

In short,expect some fair but nasty teamwork oriented scripting i.e. the sorceress dispells the enemy stoneskins and buffs, the melee thieves go invisible and move in for a backstab while the ranged thief peppers the enemy spellcasters with Arrows of Biting/Dispelling while the Cleric casts Unholy Blight on any good PCs. Here's the planned enemy party setup:

Cyric's Chosen
-------------------

1) Venduris - lvl 23 Human Assassin (leader)
STR 14, DEX 18, CON 16, INT 15 WIS 12, CHA 16


2) Bodak Hangthorn - lvl 13/16 Halfling Fighter/Thief
STR 13, DEX 19, CON 17, INT 12 WIS 9, CHA 11


3) Selina Shadowstorm - lvl 17 Human Sorceress
STR 10, DEX 17, CON 16, INT 15 WIS 13, CHA 17


4) Kerith the Black - lvl 21 Human Priest of Cyric
STR 15, DEX 15, CON 16, INT 12 WIS 17, CHA 13


5) Grok - lvl 19 Half-Orc Barbarian
STR 19, DEX 18, CON 19, INT 10 WIS 8, CHA 9


6) Zaeron T'ane - lvl 13/16 Half-Elf Mage/Thief
STR 11, DEX 18, CON 14, INT 17 WIS 10, CHA 14

* The portraits used for my characters are courtesy of The Frozen North


When killed, these characters will drop ALL of the loot that they were carrying, which might include some of the following items from IWD1 Also, I'm considering to modify the Bounty Hunter kit and make his Special Traps more useful. More info on that below...

[aVENGER]

Proposed Bounty Hunter changes:
--------------------------------------------

The Bounty Hunter kit seamed a bit weak when compared to the other thief kits especially in ToB, so I decided to give his Special Snares a little boost. He also gains a new special ability similar to the Assassins poison Weapon but it coats the weapons in a tranquilizing substance which knocks out victims unless they make their saves. The 'coating' effect lasts for 12 seconds and the unconsciousness lasts for one round. Here's the updated kit description:

BOUNTY HUNTER:

This is a hunter of men, skilled in tracking quarry and bringing them back alive...whether for lawful authorities or underworld masters. Bounty Hunters are specially trained at their task and make fearsome opponents. They sometimes use alchemical substances and toxins to incapacitate or weaken their pray. Their trap making abilities are also well beyond that of the average thief and they can set up special snares in addition to the normal traps.

Advantages:
- +15% to trap setting
- May coat his weapon in tranquilizer toxin once per day per 8 levels. All attacks in the next 12 seconds force the victim to save or be knocked unconscious for one round.
- May pick the Tracking ability at higher levels
- He can lay special traps (other than the ones that all thieves receive). The traps are more powerful than the typical thief trap, and the effect varies according to level. The secondary trap effects are listed below and the physical damage actually improves even further (up to 16d6 at level 40).
1st: the trap deals out damage and slows the target (if save is failed)
11th: the trap holds the target if a save is failed
16th: the trap erects an Otiluke's resilient sphere around the target (if a save is failed)
21st: the trap mazes the target

Disadvantages:
- Gets only 20% to distribute between thief abilities each level

[Nukenin]

The proposed bounty hunter changes look pretty good. It might be nice to keep the Otiluk's Resilient Sphere and Maze traps, but make them available separately--there may be some situations where taking an opponent out of the game for a few rounds might be more advantageous.

It might also be interesting to give them an imprisonment trap at the highest levels--it'd fit the class' nature, anyway.

[aVENGER]

I've considered such a solution initially, but after some thinking I've come to the conclusion that the 'stun' and 'feeblemind' effects could actually turn out as more useful. Here's why: by imprisoning/mazing your opponents you would effectively remove them from actual combat, and in case of imprisonment you'd also lose any items that they are carrying, unless you cast Freedom afterwards which could in term could to spectacularly cheesy XP abuses. So imprisonment is definitively out of the question, and the maze ability didn't prove as very useful for most Bounty Hunter players I've heard from.

If more people ask for it though, I might follow your advice and create two or more versions of the Special Snares, one with the stun/feeblemind/poison and the other with the standard sphere/maze effect.

[Nukenin]

I think what scared me away from Bounty Hunters is that the special trap changes as you level, rather than you getting another, separate special trap type to set (or just improvements to your existing trap).

Your proposed change at least replaces the higher traps with a string of steadily improved traps.

Ultimately of course the best approach is to also restrict the trap HLAs to just bounty hunters, so folks that want those traps have to learn how to play BH-style.

[evildevil]

IMO, the special snares title should change... like first to tenth level the thief will gain the new ability "Set Slow Snare", and eleventh to fifteenth "Set Holding Snare"

Just so you can have control over what trap is set each time...

[IronWolf of Tethyr]

Hmm.......editing BHs is a good idea but why do U intend to take away Otiluke's Resilient Sphere and Maze traps away these are only two things in his repertoire that might hold on to their effectiveness at higher levels and are able to turn the tide of a battle, these are really great traps if U know how to use'em.

However I liked the idea of your 21st, 30th and 40th level Stun, feeblemindand poison traps for BH. But why would somebody wants to set up these traps when spike/time/exploding traps get the job done so well? Either reserve spike/time/exploding traps for BH and give other thieves some other abilities intead of these traps otherwise I don't see a point to giving BH anymore trapping stuff once he crosses 23rd level, unless it's better than spike/exploding/time traps.

My take would be to give BH a little more skill with weapons as it's really hard for me to swallow that a Bounty Hunter would be a poor fighter, because bounties just don't come easy and without deadly fights, as there's no telling what might come his way when he goes deep into a forest or enter a ruin on a bounty hunt. Allow him to specialise in thief weaponry and give him a little something such as traquilising shot or tranquilising trap, as BHs discription distinctly says he's hunter of men and is specialised in bringing them in alive, so he must have an attack that render his opponents unconcious.

I'm recently playing BGII as a BH and I have edited this class some what, now in my game BHs are like:

Adv:
- starts with specialisation in Long Bows
- may specialise in thief weapons(however he gains THAC0 and prof. points at a regular thief's rate.)

- +15% to trap setting
Traps:
1st: the trap deals out damage and slows the target (if save is failed)
11th: the trap holds the target if a save is failed
16th: the trap erects an Otiluke's resilient sphere around the target (if a save is failed)
21st: the trap mazes the target

Disadv.:
- Gets only 20% to distribute between thief abilities each level
- Levels up slower than regular thief. (that's if a regular thief might get 23 levels with in 29500000 XP cap, BH would get only 19 levels.)
- Must put 14 points in intelligence (as all this cheesy Otiluke's Resilient Sphere and Maze stuff with a trap doesn't come that easy)

Now, I'm thinking about giving him some sleep causing stuff to traquilise his target and a disadv. to compansate for it. Ofcourse I know U R more experienced than me in doing this sort of work, but I thought I must post what I had in mind.

EDIT: Hey could U give thieves the ability to set traps during a battle while they R invisible (ofcourse with a little penalty to their set trap skill, say 10 - 20% penalty). It really bugs that thieves can't set traps when enemies R around, I think they should be able to do so when they R hidden or invisible but with a little penalty to their trap setting skill. That would be really great if U could do this.


IW.

[aVENGER]

Hmm.......editing BHs is a good idea but why do U intend to take away Otiluke's Resilient Sphere and Maze traps away these are only two things in his repertoire that might hold on to their effectiveness at higher levels and are able to turn the tide of a battle, these are really great traps if U know how to use'em.

As I mentioned above, some people have complained about these traps taking the enemies away from the battle, especially the sphere trap (which wasn't that useful IMO because it still allowed a save). The maze trap may have had some advantages (i.e. crowd control) so I'll consider implementing separate versions for my new traps.

However I liked the idea of your 21st, 30th and 40th level Stun, feeblemindand poison traps for BH. But why would somebody wants to set up these traps when spike/time/exploding traps get the job done so well?

You forget that a rogue must pick the Spike/Timestop/Exploding traps from the HLA menu while the special snares are gained for free every 6 levels or so. Besides, the HLA traps are mainly focused on eliminating the opponents while the special BH snares should be primarily used for incapacitating them.

My take would be to give BH a little more skill with weapons as it's really hard for me to swallow that a Bounty Hunter would be a poor fighter, because bounties just don't come easy and without deadly fights, as there's no telling what might come his way when he goes deep into a forest or enter a ruin on a bounty hunt.

Well, the Thief's Handbook does mention that Bounty Hunters tend to use non-thief weapons sometimes, but giving them weapon specialization could make them too similar to the Swashbuckler which is not what I intend.

...give him a little something such as traquilising shot

I like this idea.

...specialisation in Long Bows

IIRC, single-class Thieves can not use Long Bows.

...Levels up slower than regular thief.

I don't see the point of this...

Hey could U give thieves the ability to set traps during a battle

There are several hard coded actions which are prohibited during combat in the Infinity Engine. One of them would be setting traps IIRC. Besides, seating or disarming a trap takes some time in PnP AD&D, it's not done instantly like in BG2. It also requires a lot of concentration from the thief and can often last a couple of rounds and more depending on trap complexity, so setting traps in combat is definitively out of the question even if the thief is stealthed/invisible.

[IronWolf of Tethyr]

You forget that a rogue must pick the Spike/Timestop/Exploding traps from the HLA menu while the special snares are gained for free every 6 levels or so. Besides, the HLA traps are mainly focused on eliminating the opponents while the special BH snares should be primarily used for incapacitating them.

No I didn't forget it, I meant whether picking or not picking if U once have a HLA trap U will always go for it not anyother snare or anything (except for the contingency traps that I've explained below.)

As I mentioned above, some people have complained about these traps taking the enemies away from the battle, especially the sphere trap (which wasn't that useful IMO because it still allowed a save).  

Removing the allowed saving throw would do the trick, however removing allowed saving throw would render the trap as quite *cheesy* . So if removing this trap from BHs repertoire is the only solution then give him another magical trap with area effect such as a trap with Abi Dalzim Horrid Wilting or with Prismatic Ray or Death Spell or ...........etc. And make atleast 14 intelligence a necessary requirement for a BH.

Or U can give him a trap that would trigger a contingency on your own party. What I mean is that, if somebody would step over the trap a certain beneficial contingency combo would take effect over your party members who are within a certain radius of trap.

Or there can be a trap that would let loose a harmful contingency combo on the enemy party within a certain radius of trap.

(and the best thing about these contingency traps is that players would get to choose themselves which spell to use and which one's not to use. the spells to put in the contingency trap would depend on BH's current level and intelligence.)

IIRC, single-class Thieves can not use Long Bows.

I know but do U really agree that a BH is actually a pure blood thief? He is sort of a Fighter/Rogue and it's a little something to boost his fighting side.

And slower level-ups are due to that he gains a lotta adv. by specialising in weapons inorder to compansate it I went for slower level ups.

And besides there's that stupid illogical UAI ability for thieves that makes'em use anything in the game. (A thief with Two Handed Sword or Halbred really kills me).
if U could just change UAI to thief weapon mastery or to something that would give a thief's backstab an additional effect such as usual backstab dmg + blindness or b'stab dmg + dire bleeding wound or b'stab dmg + slow/unconcious or may be change UAI to use magical device that would be great.

The day I realised a Fighter/Cleric can't use Axe and a Cleric/Ranger can't use Scimitars was the day I stopped following BGII's restriction for weapons and edit weapon usabilities that seems logical.

And Long Bows seem logical for somebody who goes on hunt after bandits or werewolves or etc sets traps and snipe the enemies with long range long bows while enemies running towards him fall into his traps.

Well, the Thief's Handbook does mention that Bounty Hunters tend to use non-thief weapons sometimes, but giving them weapon specialization could make them too similar to the Swashbuckler which is not what I intend.

Well U can atleast giv'em specialisation in ranged weapons such as crossbow/short bows if not all thief weapons but if U think this will too make'em look like a Swashy then atleast let'em recieve +1 to hit not dmg. with the weapon of proficiency every six/eight or so levels, U've just gotta give'em something to boost their fighting skill a little, a bounty hunter can never be as poor a fighter as a simple thief .

IW.

[aVENGER]

No I didn't forget it, I meant whether picking or not picking if U once have a HLA trap U will always go for it not anyother snare or anything

I'm not really sure what you mean with this. If you are referring to the 'maximum traps limit' introduced in ToB then I can see why HLA traps would be at an advantage though.

Removing the allowed saving throw would do the trick, however removing allowed saving throw would render the trap as an absolute cheese against spellcasters.

Actually, the sphere trap will become immensely powerful if I remove the save because it already ignores the target's magic resistance, and I think very few creatures in BG2 are immune to Otiluke's Sphere...

So if removing this trap from BHs repertoire is the only solution then give him another magical trap with area effect such as a trap with Abi Dalzim Horrid Wilting or with Prismatic Ray or Death Spell or ...........etc. And make atleast 14 intelligence a necessary requirement for a BH.
Or U can give him a trap that would trigger a contingency on your own party. What I mean is that, if somebody would step over the trap a certain beneficial contingency combo would take effect over your party members who are within a certain radius of trap.

Hmm...these are interesting ideas but I really want to avoid spell-oriented traps because they are somewhat unrealistic, and could be exploited very easily. Giving the BH spell-oriented traps like the ones you suggested would make him into some kind of a thief/mage multi-class which would be too powerful for a thief kit even if I restricted those traps to very high levels. I personally prefer mundane traps with spell-like effects (i.e. slow, sleep, stun...) which have some form of logical explanation behind them, for example my own trap suggestions are based on these lines from the Thief's Handbook:

"Besides the usual range of thiefly equipment, Bounty Hunters take interest in items for killing and capturing their prey. [...] Blinding powder and incapacitating poisons (paralytic ones or those that make their victim ill and helpless) may also have value."

BTW, I'm thinking about giving Bounty Hunters the 'Tracking' HLA for free at level 21. This ability may not be quite as useful as in IWD but still...

I know but do U really agree that a BH is actually a pure blood thief? He is sort of a Fighter/Rogue and it's a little something to boost his fighting side

I'll think about this...but even if I approve of any combat benefits they will be very modest.

[IronWolf of Tethyr]

IronWolf wrote:  
No I didn't forget it, I meant whether picking or not picking if U once have a HLA trap U will always go for it not anyother snare or anything

aVENGER wrote:
I'm not really sure what you mean with this. If you are referring to the 'maximum traps limit' introduced in ToB then I can see why HLA traps would be at an advantage though.

I simply meant that, I once played the game as a Swashbuckler and near the end of ToB my Swashy was 40 levels old which means that I had around 17 opportunities to choose whatever from HLA menu, as U know thieves start recieving ToB abilities right after 23rd level, and I chose spike/exploding/time traps 11or12 times outta those 17 opportunities which left me with atleast 5 spikes, 3 time and 3 expl. traps. Now what I can't understand is that why would I go for an incapacitating trap when I can kill almost any creature with just two spike Ts and knockout, cause uber damges and make unconcious and even kill a lotta creatures with just one expl.T and what could be the greater incapacitation than Time Stop itself.
And I know that even if I was a Bounty Hunter instead of a Swashbuckler, I'm gonna recieve these three traps so I don't care what other traps I'm gonna get as these three are already insanely strong U cannot beat them in power. U need something of intelligence, sharp/technical and tactical as power has already been claimed, and in my opinion that would be contingency traps (I was almost convinced with myself but in your last post U counted them out, although I still don't see any problem with a BH with high level intelligence setting those. However I agree with U that this would project BH a bit inclined towards magic.)

And the traps that U mentioned(with feeblemind, stun and poison effect) a BH is going to recieve at 30th/40th level are supposed to be BH special and they just doesn't seem that they can beat these three (time/exp./spike) traps that R so widespread throughout the thief class, which means that once again BHs are going to lag behind as every thief would already have better than a BH can actually offer at his optimum + their own abilities.

My point is to give'em something that will make them unique and important. When U think about Thief U think about Assassin or a Swashbuckler nobody thinks about BH all I want is to get BHs to the level of Assassin and Swashy.

Take Paladins for instance Cavs, Inquis, UHs all maintain there effectiveness even after ToB abilities become available. Incase of Fighters, Berserker, Wizard Slayers, Kensais all offer something unique even after HLA abilities become accessible.

And as for tracking ability, I was just about to suggest this to U that granting it to BH would fulfill atleast a formality, as discription distinctly states that BHs are skilled trackers, however I agree that this won't be of much use.

I suppose I'm not bothering U with all these arguments and suggestions, am I?

I'm just trying to help ................... ofcourse I know U R great at this sort of work as I've played and liked Rogue Re-balancing Mod.

However if U have it all figured out about BH then I would stop posting.



IW.

[aVENGER]

And the traps that U mentioned(with feeblemind, stun and poison effect) a BH is going to recieve at 30th/40th level are supposed to be BH special and they just doesn't seem that they can beat these three (time/exp./spike) traps that R so widespread throughout the thief class, which means that once again BHs are going to lag behind as every thief would already have better than a BH can actually offer at his optimum + their own abilities.

I realize that the HLA traps are better than my custom BH snares but my goal was never to replace them, but rather to complement them. The HLA traps are useful for dealing a great amounts of damage in a short time period while my custom snares should be primarily used to incapacitate opponents and make them easier to handle.

I suppose I'm not bothering U with all these arguments and suggestions, am I? I'm just trying to help ................... of course I know U R great at this sort of work as I've played and liked Rogue Re-balancing Mod. However if U have it all figured out about BH then I would stop posting.

No, of course you are not bothering me In fact, I asked for this board room in hopes of getting some insightful discussions rolling and you have managed to provide one. I've already adopted one of the ideas you suggested (the tranquilizing shot) and I'm thinking about some others, so feel free to suggest more. BTW, perhaps I should point out that I prefer to stick with PnP rules for the most part (notice the board description) and thus I often avoid ideas that stray from that path, although some of them can be pretty good.

To help you and the other posters understand my goals, I'll post the 2E AD&D description of the Bounty Hunter kit directly from the Thief's Handbook:

Bounty Hunter
------------------

 Description: The Bounty Hunter is a ruthless mercenary, worshipping little besides the price on his target's head, recognizing few laws save the contractual distinction between "kill" and "capture." He may be found serving the state, capturing criminals and bringing them to justice; or he may serve the shadowy lords of the underworld, avenging the twisted honor found among thieves and criminals. Pursuit of his quarry may take him through a thousand hostile environments, to foreign lands, even to alien planes. He is a hunter of men.
   The Bounty Hunter's vocation is rigorous and demanding at every level: physical, psychological, even moral. It requires a sure hand and a stable mind. To be a Bounty Hunter, a thief must have minimum scores of 11 in every ability except Charisma. One thing that doesn't really matter to a tough, independent thief like this is whether or not people like him.
   A further requirement is that the Bounty Hunter be of a non-lawful alignment. The reasons for this are discussed below.
   Role: It is important to draw a distinction between the Bounty Hunter and the Assassin, for their vocations are similar.
   The Assassin is most often part of a larger network or organization-either a society of Assassins for hire, or a guild or crime family, or even a government. The Assassin is retained by that organization to discreetly eliminate its enemies; he is strictly a killer. The Assassin also is a predominantly urban figure, though his missions may take him out of that setting on occasion. Most organizations that have Assassins would deny their existence, because of the highly illegal and unpopular nature of their activities.
   The Bounty Hunter, by contrast, is a loner. He may be solicited directly by an employer, but more often he simply learns of a price offered for the body (living or dead) of some person and goes after him.
   While the Assassin requires secrecy and anonymity, the Bounty Hunter thrives on infamy. Fear leads his prey to make mistakes, and each such mistake brings the Bounty Hunter one step closer to success. While an Assassin is often hired to kill relatively normal, often unsuspecting people, the Bounty Hunter is tracking fugitives-people who know who's after them, and are therefore exceptionally desperate and dangerous.
   Pursuit of such people may lead the Bounty Hunter to literally any place, even to other planes of existence (if the prospective reward will make the venture worthwhile), and so the Bounty Hunter becomes adept at survival and tracking in all manner of hostile environments.
   Bounty Hunters do not track only fugitives. They may be hired to perform such tasks as kidnapping, freeing kidnapped persons, or (especially at lower levels, when they are still developing their skills) recovering stolen property.
   The law and authorities do not always look kindly upon Bounty Hunters, though they will permit their existence so that they, too, may benefit from the manhunters' expertise. For the same reason, thieves' guilds tolerate the Bounty Hunters, despite the fact that almost no Hunter would ever join their ranks.
   Secondary Skills: Any.
   Weapon Proficiencies: The Bounty Hunter is permitted the use of any weapon. As part of his persona and fearsome public image, a Bounty Hunter will often gain proficiency in a rare or bizarre weapon, such as the khopesh sword or man-catcher. Non-thief weapons take up two of the Bounty Hunter's weapon proficiency slots, but he is granted a bonus slot at 1st level.
   Example: Borg Tartan takes the Bounty Hunter thief kit. This means he has 3 initial weapon proficiency slots. Two he fills with a nonthief weapon, two-handed sword, and in the third he takes the hand crossbow.
   Nonweapon Proficiencies: Required: Tracking. Recommended: Alertness, Animal Handling/Training, Animal Noise, Boating, Direction Sense, Fire-building, Gather Intelligence, Herbalism, Hunting, Intimidation, Observation, Riding, Set Snares, Survival, Trailing.
   Skill Progression: Bounty Hunters make frequent use of almost all thief skills, except perhaps pick pockets.
   Note that "pick pockets" includes all sorts of delicate feats of manual dexterity, such as slipping poison or a "mickey" into a drink. Deadly poisoning is more frequently the province of the Assassin, but a carefully placed, powerful sedative may save a Bounty Hunter a great deal of trouble. (To have access to sedatives or understand their use, a Bounty Hunter must have herbalism proficiency.)
   Equipment: Besides the usual range of thiefly equipment, Bounty Hunters take interest in items for killing and capturing their prey. Special items from the equipment chapter, such as blade boots, death knives, folding bows, and the like, are sometimes taken as favorite weapons. A rope for holding live prisoners is, of course, vital, and it may also be used for setting snares. Blinding powder and incapacitating poisons (paralytic ones or those that make their victim ill and helpless) may also have value.
   Bounty Hunters make little use of deadly poisons-that is more the province of the stealthy Assassin. If a Bounty Hunter is out to kill a fugitive, he probably won't be worrying about how messy it will be.
   Special Benefits: None.
   Special Hindrances: None.
   Races: Members of any race could become Bounty Hunters. Among the nonhumans, however, those of mixed blood (e.g., half-elves) favor it most, since they are often outsiders, loners not accepted by either side of their ancestry.

As you can see there's not much to work with here since the BH gains no special benefits or penalties, so my changes are based on the kit description provided here. You can interpret some of the lines in different ways, so anyone may suggest their own views

[IronWolf of Tethyr]

aVENGER wrote:

Bounty Hunter:
Description:    
<....................snip.......................>

Hmm........................... I guess, i'll have to edit the changes that I've made in BH class in my game.

The Bounty Hunter's vocation is rigorous and demanding at every level: physical, psychological, even moral. It requires a sure hand and a stable mind. To be a Bounty Hunter, a thief must have minimum scores of 11 in every ability except Charisma. One thing that doesn't really matter to a tough, independent thief like this is whether or not people like him.
The Bounty Hunter's vocation is rigorous and demanding at every level: physical, psychological, even moral. It requires a sure hand and a stable mind. To be a Bounty Hunter, a thief must have minimum scores of 11 in every ability except Charisma. One thing that doesn't really matter to a tough, independent thief like this is whether or not people like him.

- Quite high requirements, class performance should reflect that, must turn BH into a prefered class of many.

However BGII stats requirement aren't that high for BHs but likewise there stuff is also quite shabby in BGII.

Weapon Proficiencies: The Bounty Hunter is permitted the use of any weapon. As part of his persona and fearsome public image, a Bounty Hunter will often gain proficiency in a rare or bizarre weapon, such as the khopesh sword or man-catcher.

Non-thief weapons take up two of the Bounty Hunter's weapon proficiency slots, but he is granted a bonus slot at 1st level.
Example: Borg Tartan takes the Bounty Hunter thief kit. This means he has 3 initial weapon proficiency slots. Two he fills with a nonthief weapon, two-handed sword, and in the third he takes the hand crossbow.

- Suggests that BHs must have access to all weapons specially exotic ones but just to the level of proficiencey(that's one point per weapon).

Nonweapon Proficiencies: Required: Tracking. Recommended: Alertness, Animal Handling/Training, Animal Noise, Boating, Direction Sense, Fire-building, Gather Intelligence, Herbalism, Hunting, Intimidation, Observation, Riding, Set Snares, Survival, Trailing.

Note that "pick pockets" includes all sorts of delicate feats of manual dexterity, such as slipping poison or a "mickey" into a drink. Deadly poisoning is more frequently the province of the Assassin, but a carefully placed, powerful sedative may save a Bounty Hunter a great deal of trouble. (To have access to sedatives or understand their use, a Bounty Hunter must have herbalism proficiency.)

Blinding powder and incapacitating poisons (paralytic ones or those that make their victim ill and helpless) may also have value.

- Suggests he's some kind of mix of rogue and ranger. Should gain tracking skill at early levels as he's basically a tracker should not wait till crossing 29500000 XP mark.

-Also suggests that he has skill with alchemy(rogues get alchemy skill in HLA menu enabling them to make many potions) but BH should get it early but this skill will grant him knowledge to create only one sort of potion. let's say some sort of chloroform (but since U've already decided to give him a traquilising shot so the chloroform potion won't be such a good idea. ) ......................
...............Say, how about a deadly acidic potion/powder that he can throw on one of his enemy causing his skins to burn as hell and promoting decay in his body. Or may be an explosive cocktail would do.
However personally I would go for acidic potion/powder which will cause 1 dmg/second that's 6 dmg/rnd which will also apply spell failure on and slows target . ( or precisely a potion/powder that will cause dolorous decay(6th lvl. druid spell) on the target, the only difference being dolorous decay causes desease this potion/powder will cause acid damage as the result of acidic proleferation in the body)

- Recommended proficiency in "survival" in the above excerpt suggests that he has high constitution(give him a bit bigger dice for HP roll, I understand that a rogue's HP dice is 1D6 let's give him a priest roll 1D8

- the excerpt mentions high and stable physical state for BH at more than one place, so he should also have some sort of resistances. e.g. against acid or etc. (just give him a little something to make BH a preferred class).

- should we say that recommended proficiency in Alertness and Observation, as it's mentioned in the above quote from your post, calls for a bonus in detect illusions skill and perhaps resistance to b'stabs.

- Give him a dexterity modifier bonus to give his AC and skill with crossbows/bows a little boost.

Skill Progression: Bounty Hunters make frequent use of almost all thief skills, except perhaps pick pockets.

BGII's restricition for BHs to gain only 20% thief skill points limits the frequent use of thief skill. I've mentioned that I'm currently playing a BH and I'm having quite a difficult time to actually raise my thieving skills. On the contrary Yoshi has more skill points than me put in his thieving abilities however we are of same level and my dexterity and almost all other attributes are higher than his, so don't judge BHs skill point distribution on Yoshi's account.

For a BH, Yoshimo has unrealistic amount of thief skill points put into his skills they are atleast 40/50 points(or may be more) over the skill points of the BH of same level. So U must do something about that limited thief skill points distribution if U want frequent use of almost all thief skills as it says in the excerpt of your post that I have quoted above.

Bounty Hunters make little use of deadly poisons-that is more the province of the stealthy Assassin. If a Bounty Hunter is out to kill a fugitive, he probably won't be worrying about how messy it will be.

Hmm...............they R not affraid of messy ways to get their bounties now what does this calls for ......................... I think we can make something out of it too, but I suppose I would have to do a little thinking on it, however I get the feeling that I can come up with something about the above qoute I'll post it later.

Compilation:
- Have access to proficiency in all weapons. (that's just one point)
- Gets tranquilising shot once per every 6 levels (enemy must save at -5)
- Gains tracking skill at 12th level.
- HP dice roll is 1D8 instead of 1D6
- Immune to desease
- 25% resistance to poison.
- Gains bonus in detect illusions skill
- May gain alchemic ability to make a dire acidic potion/powder at level 16
- Gains +1 bonus to dexterity modifier at 16th level.
- Gains +1 to critical hit at 18th level (due to his keen sense of observation and the need of quickly overcoming powerful enemies a BH specialises in scoring critical hits on it's targets)
- At 24th level BH gains the ability to b'stab it's targets in such a way that if they fail their saving throw they'll fall unconcious and suffer 40 points of bleeding wound + the regular b'stab dmg according to the current b'stab mod. of the BH, however if the save is successfull the unconcious effect and bleeding wound would be avoided, the target will only suffer the B'stab damage according to the BH's current b'stab mod.

Traps:
1st: the trap deals out damage and slows the target (if save is failed)
11th: the trap holds the target if a save is failed
16th: the trap stuns the target (if a save is failed)
16th: the trap erects an Otiluke's resilient sphere around the target *(a saving throw is allowed at the penalty of -5)*
21st: the trap stuns and feebleminds the target (if a save at -2 is failed)
21st: the trap mazes the target
30st: the trap stuns, feebleminds and poisons the target (if a save at -4 is failed)
40st: the trap stuns, feebleminds and poisons the target (if a save at -6 is failed)

So this is a large collection of Advantages for a BH derived from the excerpt U posted (from 2e AD & D if I'm right ) . However not as large as a Monk's.

Now all that's left is to determine disadvantages. and then choose from the large list of avantages and disadvantages.

Though, when I look at the Monk's list of advantages I just don't wanna deduct anything from this list of advantages for BH.

[aVENGER]

Quite high requirements, class performance should reflect that, must turn BH into a prefered class of many.

This is true for PnP games where high stats actually mean something because you roll once and take what you get. In BG2 stats can be re-rolled at will until an optimum is reached so I'll restrain myself from modifying or crediting any class or kit stats...it's really meaningless in the end.

BHs must have access to all weapons specially exotic ones but just to the level of proficiencey(that's one point per weapon).

Now I'd really like to implement this properly but alas, even if I added the ability to put points into exotic weapons most of them would remain not-usable by the BH because all of those weapons are forbidden to the Thief core class (except if they get UAI). Due to the nature of the Infinity Engine it would be extremely difficult to change this and I'd probably have to edit every single non-thief weapon in the game by hand...so no dice here. Perhaps I'll give the BH a slight combat bonus to compensate this.

Should gain tracking skill at early levels as he's basically a tracker should not wait till crossing 29500000 XP mark.

Not really, that would make him better than rangers who are supposed to be the 'master tracker' class. I'll stick with granting it at lvl 23.

However personally I would go for acidic potion/powder which will cause 1 dmg/second that's 6 dmg/rnd which will also apply spell failure on and slows target . ( or precisely a potion/powder that will cause dolorous decay(6th lvl. druid spell) on the target, the only difference being dolorous decay causes desease this potion/powder will cause acid damage as the result of acidic proleferation in the body)

This sounds interesting...hmm let me work on that for a while.

Compilation: [...]

Sorry, still too much bonuses for a single kit. As I already mentioned above, my changes will most likely be very modest, just enough to make the kit worth playing again.

Though, when I look at the Monk's list of advantages I just don't wanna deduct anything from this list of advantages for BH.

The Monk in BG2 is a cheesed up port of the 3E D&D class. It's arguably one of the worst balanced classes in the game so I'll stay far away from that *points at his signature*

BTW, I've removed the feeblemind effect, added some of the suggested abilities and updated the kit description above to reflect the current changes. It's still open for debate though...

[IronWolf of Tethyr]

Now I'd really like to implement this properly but alas, even if I added the ability to put points into exotic weapons most of them would remain not-usable by the BH because all of those weapons are forbidden to the Thief core class (except if they get UAI). Due to the nature of the Infinity Engine it would be extremely difficult to change this and I'd probably have to edit every single non-thief weapon in the game by hand...so no dice here. Perhaps I'll give the BH a slight combat bonus to compensate this.

Yeah, i know. Editing every single non-thief weeapon could really turn-out to be an annoying job. I just suggested it as it was too obvious in the BH's description. When I gave my BH acces to Long Bows I remember I had to edit each and every Long Bow in the game seperately and at times like this it's so easy to forget one or two items of type that U R editing and when U start the game and all of sudden U get a long bow that U can't use, it really burns me up.

Sorry, still too much bonuses for a single kit. As I already mentioned above, my changes will most likely be very modest, just enough to make the kit worth playing again.

Hey! not all the bonuses that I listed in my previous post are up for the taking, just choose few of 'em and discard others. I just listed all of'em becuase they fit well the description of BH that U posted. However giving all these adv. to just one class would render an extremely cheesy thief class.

I just wanted all of the stuff, that I was able to make out of the description, to be there so that one may get a large range of bonuses to choose from, NOT TO CHOOSE THE WHOLE LIST.

[IronWolf of Tethyr]

 the toxin only affects humanoid opponents.  

WHY??

Why doesn't it affect Trolls/Illithids/ etc.?
It makes sense if Constructs and Undeads are immune to such stuff but why Illithids, trolls, animals, etc. ?

- Another thing would be that I will miss Otiluke's Resilient Sphere and Maze trap. My advice is to penalise the saving throw allowance by -4 or -5 on Otiluke's Resilient Sphere and add your traps too to his repertoire as traps being his potent offensive option a BH should have some variety of traps in his collection.

Not really, that would make him better than rangers who are supposed to be the 'master tracker' class. I'll stick with granting it at lvl 23.

Rangers are only good at tracking in natural environs not in a crowded city, however, BHs should be able to track anybody within a crowded city too. BUT HOW?

Tracking only works in wilderness, am I right. It was a long time since I last played BGII with a ranger in my party and didn't use much tracking so I don't remember correctly.

IW.

[aVENGER]

Why doesn't it affect Trolls/Illithids/ etc.?
It makes sense if Constructs and Undeads are immune to such stuff but why Illithids, trolls, animals, etc. ?

Well, this spell-like ability completely ignores magic resistance (since no magic is involved in creating the toxins) and solely requires a failed saving throw to incapacitate an opponent. Now, you can see that this could make it a tad too powerful as the player could use it to paralyze such creatures as Dragons, Demons, Giants...etc. which was not the intended purpose. The BH is usually a hunter of men, not monsters which often have a completely different size class and anatomy. BTW, humanoid opponents mean: any bipedal human, demihuman, or humanoid of man-size or smaller, including brownies, dryads, dwarves, elves, gnolls, gnomes, goblins, half-elves, halflings, half-orcs, hobgoblins, humans, kobolds, lizard men, nixies, orcs, pixies, sprites, troglodytes, and others.

Tracking only works in wilderness, am I right. It was a long time since I last played BGII with a ranger in my party and didn't use much tracking so I don't remember correctly.

It works in any area whether it be a dungeon, wilderness or a city, but it only shows the position of enemies (and neutrals) in SoA areas because Bioware neglected to implement any additional area descriptions for them. Generally, tracking is most useful for finding out the enemy locations when you first enter a new area.

[Samuel Coyote]

The problem with traps that disable the opponent is that there are very few times when you want to disable them. In PnP, a helpless opponent can be questioned for information, handed in for a higher bounty, randsomed, or just tortured for your entertainment. In BG2, they can be killed easier. However, there are already lots of traps that kills the enemy. Tricky situation, dont quite know how to work around it, though powerful disablers(the saving throw penalties you're using is a good idea, I belive) might do it. A trap that casts chaos would be interesting, because it could disable several opponents at once. Many traps has the disadvantage that they only hit one opponent, a chaos trap could be the way a BH would make large groups of enemies more managable.

For combat prowress, how about letting bountyhunters put two stars in all the various fighting styles? It will give them a combat boost without making them swashbuckler wannabees. Swashbucklers are still better at dual wielding, but bounty hunters can master the other styles. This gives them a combat advantage that no none-fighters have, without being unreasonable.

Since poison and disabling the enemy are key components to the bounty hunter, how about giving them the ability to poison their weapons, somewhat like the assassin? Ofcourse, instead of doing damage, they'd do effects like their traps: slow, hold, weaken, confuse or stun the enemy. Again, makes them somewhat better in combat without getting out of line or turning them into fighter/thieves or swashbuckler wannabees.

Stay away from all kinds of supernatural abilities such as resistances or immunities. While the odd bounty hunter might have experimented with poisons enough to develop a resistance to poison in general, this is hardly a trait of the class in general.

I'd say bonus traps and poisoned weapons would make the BH able to compete with the regular thieves again. Throw in the ability to put 2 stars in combat styles, and they should be a viable choice for most players. Sure, they wont be as powerful as monks or kensai mages, but that's not really the point.

[IronWolf of Tethyr]

BTW, humanoid opponents mean: any bipedal human, demihuman, or humanoid of man-size or smaller, including brownies, dryads, dwarves, elves, gnolls, gnomes, goblins, half-elves, halflings, half-orcs, hobgoblins, humans, kobolds, lizard men, nixies, orcs, pixies, sprites, troglodytes, and others.

U need not explain humanoids to me.

Well, this spell-like ability completely ignores magic resistance (since no magic is involved in creating the toxins) and solely requires a failed saving throw to incapacitate an opponent. Now, you can see that this could make it a tad too powerful as the player could use it to paralyze such creatures as Dragons, Demons, Giants...etc. which was not the intended purpose.

I'm having a hard time agreeing to leave Dragons, Demons, Giants...etc out of the mixture's toxin effect, just give'em a saving throw bonus against it (such as initially a bonus +4/+5 and then reduce the bonus as BH gains level.

The BH is usually a hunter of men, not monsters which often have a completely different size class and anatomy.

Couldn't there be a bounty on Lord Jeridan Firkraag's head? Or any other dragon sort whose reign of terror has grown the authorities of nearby lands in quite agitation and they offer a bounty on his head.

I guess the statement used for BH at many places that he's 'a hunter of men' is a symbolic statement and basically means that he's a cunning hunter, as there's not much cunning required to catch a simple beast as it's required in catchig a evading bandit, etc.

In my opinion he goes after almost anything if the offered bounty is good enough, whether it's a demon, dragon or a giant.

Besides the quote below from the BH's description,

Pursuit of his quarry may take him through a thousand hostile environments, to foreign lands, even to alien planes.

distinctly states that, his chases might even lead him to other planes, now why would he be chasing somebody to an alien plane? Unless he's dealing the sorts of demons or extraplanar creatures.

[aVENGER]

The problem with traps that disable the opponent is that there are very few times when you want to disable them. In PnP, a helpless opponent can be questioned for information, handed in for a higher bounty, randsomed, or just tortured for your entertainment. In BG2, they can be killed easier.

Unfortunately, this is very true for BG2 and most other IE cRPGs (except Torment) which have been designed to greatly enforce the usage of violence/murder over stealth, diplomacy and non-lethal combat

For combat prowress, how about letting bountyhunters put two stars in all the various fighting styles? It will give them a combat boost without making them swashbuckler wannabees. Swashbucklers are still better at dual wielding, but bounty hunters can master the other styles. This gives them a combat advantage that no none-fighters have, without being unreasonable.

Actually, my mod makes all rogues equal as far as dual wielding goes as per PnP rules (check out the current features thread just below) so giving the BH specialization in thiefly weapons would make him look like a watered down Swashbuckler with more traps IMO.

Stay away from all kinds of supernatural abilities such as resistances or immunities. While the odd bounty hunter might have experimented with poisons enough to develop a resistance to poison in general, this is hardly a trait of the class in general.

I most certanly will, as they often make no real difference in the game because it's incredibly (ch)easy to get any resistance statistic above 100 in BG2 by using the various potions, scrolls, rings...

U need not explain humanoids to me.

Heh, sorry about that, but it wasn't directed at you specifically. The description was meant as a clarification of the term for anyone that might ask

I'm having a hard time agreeing to leave Dragons, Demons, Giants...etc out of the mixture's toxin effect

My vision of this ability is a small blowdart which fires a tiny needle tipped with the toxin. While it might be enough to take out a human, elf or halfling, it's not really suited to be used against monsters such as Dragons or Demons which usually have a very tough hides, or Giants or who are simply too large to be affected.