85 replies to this topic

[IronWolf of Tethyr]

 
The problem with traps that disable the opponent is that there are very few times when you want to disable them. In PnP, a helpless opponent can be questioned for information, handed in for a higher bounty, randsomed, or just tortured for your entertainment. In BG2, they can be killed easier.  

Unfortunately, this is very true for BG2 and most other IE cRPGs (except Torment) which have been designed to greatly enforce the usage of violence/murder over stealth, diplomacy and non-lethal combat

Yeah.........I know what U mean.  

 
For combat prowress, how about letting bountyhunters put two stars in all the various fighting styles? It will give them a combat boost without making them swashbuckler wannabees. Swashbucklers are still better at dual wielding, but bounty hunters can master the other styles. This gives them a combat advantage that no none-fighters have, without being unreasonable.

  


Actually, my mod makes all rogues equal as far as dual wielding goes as per PnP rules (check out the current features thread just below) so giving the BH specialization in thiefly weapons would make him look like a watered down Swashbuckler with more traps IMO.

Heh..............initially I too was inclined towards giving BH thief weapon specialisation(I was even playing with one as I've already mentioned in this thread) but then I realised that it really makes him "look like a watered  down Swahbuckler with more traps." So I settled for just proficiency and +1 to hit bonus every ten levels and one more thing I also gave him 1% poison resistance per level.

My vision of this ability is a small blowdart which fires a tiny needle tipped with the toxin. While it might be enough to take out a human, elf or halfling, it's not really suited to be used against monsters such as Dragons or Demons which usually have a very tough hides, or Giants or who are simply too large to be affected.

Why??

Just give him the ability to quote his arrows, bolts or weapons, whatever he uses, in the traquilising chem. and give large creatures a large saving throw bonus against toxin's effects which will gradually reduce with the increase in BH's levels.

Heh, sorry about that,

Hey! there's no need for this sortta stuff.  


IW.  

[Samuel Coyote]

Oh yeah, forgot rogues can dual wield with this mod

However, I wasn't suggesting they get to specialize in WEAPONS(which is the domain of the swashbuckler), but in the various fighting styles. I think being able to place 2 stars in single weapon style, for example, would be useful for the bounty hunter, since I imagine them switching between bow and blade quite a bit. Nothing overpowering, but still a slight combat boost. Still just one star in actual weapons though.

As for poison and nonhumanoids, its tricky. How do you poison a dragon, after all? Their metabolism is fairly different, so regular poisons would be useless. Im sure magical ones could work, but how does a bounty hunter make a poison that can affect dragons? Not to mention demons or undead. From what I understand, the undead poison immunity will only work against poisons that deal damage, meaning they might be affected by other types of poison. How silly...
On the other hand, there are alot of non humanoid enemies out there, and you cant really chose to not face them. It would seriously weaken the bountyhunter to be unable to use his powers against some creatures. Besides, you can use traps against them, cant you? Those are often based on poison too.

[aVENGER]

Just give him the ability to quote his arrows, bolts or weapons, whatever he uses, in the traquilising chem. and give large creatures a large saving throw bonus against toxin's effects which will gradually reduce with the increase in BH's levels.

From the gameplay perspective, this would probably be the best solution, but from the editing perspective...some problems abound. You see, giving additional effects to equipped weapons is done by using EFF files. They are somewhat similar to the SPL files but more sophisticated but they have no level-based headers extensions. This means that I have to create a separate EFF file for every saveing throw penalty. With the current -8 penalty at level 40 that would be eight files. If I also wanted to implement a saving throw bonus for some races (i.e. Dragons, Giants...) I'd have to make a separate EFF file for each of those races...

BTW, in its current version, the Paralyzing Shot proved pretty useful even in ToB. I've done some playtesting and tried out a lvl 20 Bounty Hunter against Gromnir's soldiers in Saradush. He did have some difficulties when attempting to stun high level fighters (because their save vs death was fairly low) but mages...hehe, they fell for it 90% of the time (their save vs death was high). Also, being a mundane ability, the Paralyzing shot ignored all spell reflections, deflections, globes of invulnerability, stoneskins...etc.

However, I wasn't suggesting they get to specialize in WEAPONS(which is the domain of the swashbuckler), but in the various fighting styles. I think being able to place 2 stars in single weapon style, for example, would be useful for the bounty hunter, since I imagine them switching between bow and blade quite a bit. Nothing overpowering, but still a slight combat boost. Still just one star in actual weapons though.

Although this is an interesting idea, I'm not that sure of it's practical use. Reasons: my mod already provides several new magical bucklers, so people could prefer to use them instead of Single Weapon Style especially because the second point in SWS only grants an additional -1 to AC. Two handed style also does not seam very useful for thieves as it only refers to quarterstaves in their particular case.

[IronWolf of Tethyr]

As for poison and nonhumanoids, its tricky. How do you poison a dragon, after all? Their metabolism is fairly different, so regular poisons would be useless. Im sure magical ones could work, but how does a bounty hunter make a poison that can affect dragons? Not to mention demons or undead. From what I understand, the undead poison immunity will only work against poisons that deal damage, meaning they might be affected by other types of poison. How silly...

Hmm................however, Assassin's poison and different poison weapons such as poison arrrows does work on Dragons, if I recall correctly, even if you make one of your own poison weapon with simplest of poison effects it seems to damage Dragons and Demons with it's poison unless it's specially immune to poison.

On the other hand, there are alot of non humanoid enemies out there, and you cant really chose to not face them. It would seriously weaken the bountyhunter to be unable to use his powers against some creatures.

My point exactly!!  

Nothing overpowering, but still a slight combat boost

Yes a slight combat boost is definitely in order, if U'ld ask me.
+1 to hit every 8 or 10 levels oughtta do it or instead might be starting with specialisation in cross bows would do so (however he should be restricted to proficieny level in all other weapon category.)


Below is the version that I'm currently playing with and it's turning out to be quite fun.

- usual BH trap setting skill bonus
- usual BH traps (however saving throw for Otiluke's Resilient Sphere is penalised by -5)
- Gains +1 to hit every 8 levels
- Gains +1% resistance to poison damage per level which gets capped a 20% at 20th level.
- Gains ability to coat his weapon in a tranquiliser for 2 rounds once per day, for every 6 levels. (Target must save vs. poison at -6 penalty otherwise become unconcious for three rounds.)
- Gains ability to create Toxic Mixture once a day at level 16 and thereafter gains this ability every 6 levels.

Toxic Mixture:
Damage:
target recieves 2D4 acid damage in first round and then recieves 1D4 acid damage for the rest of 5 rounds (acid damages last for 6 rounds that's 36 secs). target must save vs poison at the penalty of -2 to avoid last three rounds of acid damage and spell casting failure.  
Abilities:
Acidic proleferation in the body makes it extrememly difficult for a spell caster to cast spell and so recieves 80% chance of spell casting failure(target must save vs poison at the penalty of -2 to avoid spell casting failure.)
50% chance of slowing the Target (duration 3 rounds)
5% chance of Disarming the opponent

- Gains a Shock Trap at 24th level. (The trap causes 4D12 lightning damage + 2D4 slashing + 2D4 piercing damage to a rushing group of enemies and if save vs. breath is failed at the penalty of -10 enemies will get blown away and become unconcious for 3 secs.) Enemies must also save vs. breath at -2 penalty or their weapons will be blown outta their hands. A successful save vs breath -2 penalty would also allow enemies to avoid 2D12 lightning damage. The trap is gained every six levels after a BH recieves it at 24th level.

Dis adv:
- Regular penalty for BH to recieve just 20% of thief skill points.
- Gains level slower than a regular thief.  (if a thief gains 23 levels within 29500000 XP points a BH would gain only 19 levels. i.e. BH follows a fighter's XP table to gain levels.)  



IW.  

[IronWolf of Tethyr]

Just give him the ability to quote his arrows, bolts or weapons, whatever he uses, in the traquilising chem. and give large creatures a large saving throw bonus against toxin's effects which will gradually reduce with the increase in BH's levels.

From the gameplay perspective, this would probably be the best solution, but from the editing perspective...some problems abound. You see, giving additional effects to equipped weapons is done by using EFF files. They are somewhat similar to the SPL files but more sophisticated but they have no level-based headers extensions. This means that I have to create a separate EFF file for every saveing throw penalty. With the current -8 penalty at level 40 that would be eight files. If I also wanted to implement a saving throw bonus for some races (i.e. Dragons, Giants...) I'd have to make a separate EFF file for each of those races...

U see...................I know a thing or two myself about tweaking with this game   and I reached the same conclusion when I tried doing it, a day ago. It would definitely require multiple EFF files, so we'll just settle with Humanoids.  

BTW, in its current version, the Paralysing Shot proved pretty useful even in ToB. I've done some playtesting and tried out a lvl 20 Bounty Hunter against Gromnir's soldiers in Saradush. He did have some difficulties when attempting to stun high level fighters (because their save vs death was fairly low) but mages...hehe, they fell for it 90% of the time (their save vs death was high). Also, being a mundane ability, the Paralyzing shot ignored all spell reflections, deflections, globes of invulnerability, stoneskins...etc.

Hmmm ............ I see, I've employed different way to give my BH tranquilising shot. I created an EFF file for giving his weapon effect of sleep for two rounds. However as I mentioned in my last post he's able to do so only once per day and gains this ability after every six lvl.s increasing the number of times he's able to do so per each day.

Firstly, I gave him the duration of 1 round for the ability to coat his weapon in tranquiliser but then I found out most of the times he runs outta the round w/o even hitting anyone, tranquilising somebody would be another thing, so the ability got wasted almost everytime I tried to paralyse my opponents then I gave him the duration of 2 rounds for this ability so atleast he could hit somebody during the duration, so now he's able to hit once and sometimes twice but most of the times enemies succeed in their saving throws, however easier opponents such as Sahuagin, Ogres, often succumb to tranquiliser's effects.

However I'm still thinking that should my BH be able to coat his weapon in a tranquiliser for 2 rounds or should he be able to create 5 tranquilising bolts/arrows per day for every six or eight levels? I can't decide how to apply this traquilising stuff on BH.

And about that shock trap that I've added to BH kit, it would be fine if U wanna add this into your Rogue Rebalancing Mod in BH's repertoire. It really works great and adds a lot in disabling your opponents as it sometimes knock their weapons outta their hands. I tried using it against the drows in Sendai's Enclave to actually see how effective it is and it worked out really great.

IW.  

[aVENGER]

However I'm still thinking that should my BH be able to coat his weapon in a tranquiliser for 2 rounds or should he be able to create 5 tranquilising bolts/arrows per day for every six or eight levels? I can't decide how to apply this traquilising stuff on BH.

This was the first thing that I thought about when you mentioned tranquilizing, but then I remembered that it would require multiple ITM files for every penalty level and it would rely on the proficiency with arrows/darts. My current version is a spell-like ability which always hits and uses the graphics of the melf's acid arrow but I'm not really satisfied with that, perhaps I will change it into create darts or something...

And about that shock trap that I've added to BH kit, it would be fine if U wanna add this into your Rogue Rebalancing Mod in BH's repertoire

This looks very good! It doesn't quite fit in with my toxin profile but I'll consider it. I may even leave the old maza/sphere traps available and add new traps at various higher levels. Playtesting will show the best way...

[aVENGER]

Is there anyway to give Swashbucklers the extra half attack when they specialize in a weapon?

Unfortunately, I don't think this is possible. It was explained by a Bioware programmer that somehow only fighters get attack bonuses from higher proficiency rates. Basically, it's just another IE bug/limitation...

BTW, the buckler +1 from the Waukeen's promenade shop, is it also usable for the Items Upgrade mod to create the Amaunator buckler

My Buckler +1 uses a different ITM file so I don't think it can be used for this upgrade.

Also do we need to start a new game to get that Chapter 6 encounter? Or do we only need to apply the new mod when it comes out?

You won't have to start a new game unless you have already finished chapter six and went to the elven city. This encounter is not implemented in the current revision as it's still being worked on. I will probably release a public beta version in a couple of weeks for purposes of testing the combat AI, but the dialogue component might take a bit longer to complete.

[IronWolf of Tethyr]

However I'm still thinking that should my BH be able to coat his weapon in a tranquiliser for 2 rounds or should he be able to create 5 tranquilising bolts/arrows per day for every six or eight levels? I can't decide how to apply this traquilising stuff on BH.

  


This was the first thing that I thought about when you mentioned tranquilizing, but then I remembered that it would require multiple ITM files for every penalty level and it would rely on the proficiency with arrows/darts. My current version is a spell-like ability which always hits and uses the graphics of the melf's acid arrow but I'm not really satisfied with that, perhaps I will change it into create darts or something...

I'm inclined towards giving BH the ability to create tranquilising darts/bolts/arrows too, ............ but the only thing that bothers me is;

In earlier battles U won't need that sortta stuff much, so if U just keep on creating them every day but don't use them much then U might come up with the hordes of tranquilising/paralysing stuff.

Jan Jansen has the ability to create 5 flashers a day, I remember I had more than many inventory slots filled with them as I used to create them everyday but I didn't use them much earlier in the game. However, flashers are not that strong as this tranquilising/paralysing stuff but if somebody would have that much of tranquilising stuff it would be a nightmare. Then U know there won't be any stopping to such char. it would become pure cheese and exploitable to large extents.  

    
IW.  

[aVENGER]

In earlier battles U won't need that sortta stuff much, so if U just keep on creating them every day but don't use them much then U might come up with the hordes of tranquilising/paralysing stuff.

The created items could have a limited duration (i.e. 6 hours) so that hoarding them would become impossible BTW, I'll be out of town for a couple of days, should be back on Wednesday or so.

[IronWolf of Tethyr]

The created items could have a limited duration (i.e. 6 hours) so that hoarding them would become impossible

Oh! yeah why not!?
That's a good idea, i'll try to implement it.  

BTW, I'll be out of town for a couple of days, should be back on Wednesday or so.

'Kay! No probs.    

[aVENGER]

I had a couple of new ideas for my improved Bounty Hunter Traps

Since I'm using the toxin/alchemic trap approach, it might be interesting to implement an 'intoxication effect' on the opponents when they take damage from the traps. This effect would lower their damage output by a variable value for 30 seconds. For example...a fighter wielding a long sword at intoxication level one would do only 1d7 damage (instead of the regular 1d8), and he would do only 1d4 damage at intoxication level four...etc

BTW, the Bounty Hunter traps now do much more damage at higher levels. They start of doing 4d6 missile damage at lvl 1 and improve until 16d6 at lvl 40. I'm also thinking about adding some useful side effects (i.e. blindness, confusion, berserking) at higher levels and removing the current poison damage. These effects would require no save but they wouldn't happen very often (15-30% chance).

[evildevil]

how about a bleeding trap? Its not much different than poison, I know, but I figure some traps could result in a major cut, and that would bleed...

[aVENGER]

Well, the 'bleeding' in BG2 also uses the 'Poison' effect just with a different parameter setting (damage per round). Nonetheless, it does sound interesting, and I might include this at higher trap levels or in some other ability. Thanks for bringing it up!

[evildevil]

How about a Death Spell trap when the Bounty Hunter is around the end of SoA. And maybe a special thing for assassins.... if they foolishly poison there fists, I've always thought they should be inflicted with poison.

[aVENGER]

How about a Death Spell trap when the Bounty Hunter is around the end of SoA

Actually, I believe that normal thief traps already get this effect around lvl 21 (but there is a saving throw against it).

And maybe a special thing for assassins.... if they foolishly poison there fists, I've always thought they should be inflicted with poison.

LOL! It would certainly be very amusing to watch a scene like that but I really have no idea how this could be implemented without adding some script lins in BALDUR.BCS which I tend to avoid (it's allready too big IMO).

[aVENGER]

FYI, as of now I have decided to keep the Bounty Hunter traps as they are. I realized that many people would miss the old effects so I don't want to force my alchemic/toxin solution for which I have little core material to base my changes on anyway. Instead, I've upgraded the damage which the snares deal and it now gets much better as you advance to lvl40 when it deals 16d6 damage. The traps still have the maze/sphere effects but I've restored the physical damage component which was strangely missing from lvl 16 and higher. In case you are wondering, the physical damage is applied before the target is mazed/sphered.

Also, I've granted the BH the Tranquilizing Shot as IronWolf originally suggested. It's now an ability similar to the Assassins poison Weapon but it coats the weapons in a tranquilizing substance which knocks out victims unless they make their saves. The 'coating' effect lasts for 12 seconds and the unconsciousness lasts for one round.

[T.G.Maestro]

Here are some ideas for high-level (ToB) abilities for Bards and Thieves.
Note: all of these spells and abilities were already tested and used by me. They work fine and won't disturb game balance)

-Sound Burst (Evocation) BARD ONLY
Level: Quest
Range: Caster
Duration: Instantaneous
Casting Time: 3
Area of Effect: 30-foot radius
Saving Throw: Special

One of the Bards deadliest weapons is his/her voice. High level Bards have the ability to focus their voice in a massive burst of sound with devastating effects. Every creature around the caster suffers 10D6 points of damage (save vs. breath for half) and becomes deafened for 1 turn (no save). If someone fails his saving throw vs. spell at -2, immediately becomes stunned for 2 rounds or until dispelled. This spell won't affect party members.

-Phantasmal Killer (Illusion/Phantasm) BARD ONLY
Level: Quest
Range: Visual sight of caster
Duration: Special
Casting Time: 6
Area of Effect: 1 Creature
Saving Throw: Neg

The bard can use this spell to awake his opponents most horrid nightmares. The vision is so real and terrifying, that if the target creature immediately dies if it fails its saving throw vs. spells with a -2 modifier. Even if the saving throw is successful, the victim will become berserk because of the horrible experience and will attack the nearest creature (be it friend or foe) for 3 rounds.

-Mass Charm
(Enchantment/Charm) BARD ONLY
Level: Quest
Range: Visual sight of caster
Duration: 5 rounds
Casting Time: 6
Area of Effect: 30 foot radius
Saving Throw: Neg.

The Mass Charm spell is the improved version of the wizard spell Charm Creature, only available for Bards. It enables the caster to control the actions of any creature in the area while the spell is in effect. This effect can only be reversed by dispel magic. Every target gets a saving throw vs. spell at -2 in order to avoid the effect.

-Dirty Fighting THIEF ONLY
A skilled thief can focus its attacks to cripple enemies in many ways. For two rounds the thief's every succesful attack will either blind (50%) or slow (50%) the target creature for 4 rounds. There is no saving throw versus the effects of this ability.
However, when using this feat the thief's Attack rolls suffer a 2 points penalty and the damage is reduced by 5 points as well.

-Improved Dirty Fighting THIEF ONLY
A skilled thief can focus its attacks to cripple enemies in many ways. For two rounds the thief's every succesful attack will either blind (50%) or slow (50%) the target creature for 4 rounds. There is no saving throw versus the effects of this ability.
The thief has no penalties on his/her Attack Rolls and damage.
Requires: Dirty Fighting

Plus I think Bards shouldn't get the Improved Evasion abilities, it should only be available to thieves and Monks. IT requires such training that only characters like these are capable of.

I hope some of these ideas will prove useful in the future of this great mod!

TGM

[aVENGER]

Here are some ideas for high-level (ToB) abilities for Bards and Thieves.

These are some good suggestions, but I'm pretty much finished with the HLA part of my mod.

Plus I think Bards shouldn't get the Improved Evasion abilities, it should only be available to thieves and Monks. IT requires such training that only characters like these are capable of.

According to the AD&D High Level Campaigns supplement, all rogues (both Bards and Thieves) should have access to Evasion.

[drae]

How's it going with this one eeh? Haven't seen any posts in this section for *quite* a while